What exactly was Sotnikova's theme in her long program?

[Mrs. P]

Sorry to be blunt, I think people criticize her skating in the context of the marks she received by the Sochi judges. I think Adelina is a wonderful skater in her own light.

Sure but there have be also plenty of "Adelina skates like a junior" comments, which I don't agree with.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I'll remember Sotnikova's LP not for a portrayal of any theme, but rather strong jumps, good spins, and an exuberance and energy that she hadn't shown before which was pretty astonishing to see given how she was essentially an underdog with her past inconsistencies.

I will not remember it for being emotionally moving, original, or ground-breaking. But I don't think that made it necessarily unworthy of a medal.. I just thought Kostner was more worthy.

And even though it wasn't as beautiful as say Arakawa's in 2006 or Kim's in 2010, it was certainly more technically ambitious jumps-wise (and spins-wise too, IMO).

With what Sotnikova had to work with, she essentially did the best job she could, and that shouldn't be held against her. Again, it's the judges that are to blame for this result, not her for trying her best and doing so.

No it shouldn't be held against her. It should, however, be held against Peter Tchernyshev and the ISU for perpetuating a fraud. That program was not choreographed; it was constructed. It had minimal at best relation to the actual music; it was built around the sole purpose of point-gathering. You want to start with rope pulling? Fine. The idea of tension, of release, of being pulled in different directions is a fine starting point for a piece of choreography. But nothing else in the program uses that idea at all. It's a loose thread, in a "program" of nothing but loose threads. In fact, please someone show me how any of the moves, transitional or otherwise, are related to anything other than gathering as many points as possible. That's not choreography. That's construction.

I have no beef with Sotnikova per se. But I have major beefs with the judging that would give the highest--highest!--choreographic score to a program that pretty much had none. Construction, yes. Performance, yes. Choreography? I'm still waiting to see any. Shame on Tchernyshev and the ISU for perpetuating and rewarding a fraud.

 

[kwanatic]

I have no beef with Sotnikova per se. But I have major beefs with the judging that would give the highest--highest!--choreographic score to a program that pretty much had none. Construction, yes. Performance, yes. Choreography? I'm still waiting to see any. Shame on Tchernyshev and the ISU for perpetuating and rewarding a fraud.

Keep in mind that the scoring at that event was very slanted toward the Russians which is why Adelina's marks were so high.

I don't look for deeper meaning in the movements of the choreography...for anyone. If they go well with the music and are executed well, that's considered choreography to me. To that extent, there was a lot of choreography in Adelina's FS. In terms of telling a story or conveying a theme, the program didn't really go anywhere...but I feel that way about the majority of the programs I watch, including the good ones. It's not like Adelina was just standing there the whole time in her FS. That middle section (which is clearly there to chew up time) is packed with arm movements, spirals, transitions, etc. and it's in time to the music. What is she trying to portray there? I don't know...probably nothing. As I said, that section was there to chew up time.

Most people derive the theme or deeper meaning for a program based on the music or what a skater says they're trying to convey. There are people who will analyze every single move in a program and create an entire story based on what they see...I have no idea how they do that b/c all I see is an arm movement. To me, it doesn't symbolize anything. I guess I'm a lazy spectator; I don't care to look that deeply into the choreography. I go by the feeling I get on the surface and that usually comes from the way a skater performs and relates to the music and their movements.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Keep in mind that the scoring at that event was very slanted toward the Russians which is why Adelina's marks were so high.

I don't look for deeper meaning in the movements of the choreography...for anyone. If they go well with the music and are executed well, that's considered choreography to me. To that extent, there was a lot of choreography in Adelina's FS. In terms of telling a story or conveying a theme, the program didn't really go anywhere...but I feel that way about the majority of the programs I watch, including the good ones. It's not like Adelina was just standing there the whole time in her FS. That middle section (which is clearly there to chew up time) is packed with arm movements, spirals, transitions, etc. and it's in time to the music. What is she trying to portray there? I don't know...probably nothing. As I said, that section was there to chew up time.

Most people derive the theme or deeper meaning for a program based on the music or what a skater says they're trying to convey. There are people who will analyze every single move in a program and create an entire story based on what they see...I have no idea how they do that b/c all I see is an arm movement. To me, it doesn't symbolize anything. I guess I'm a lazy spectator; I don't care to look that deeply into the choreography. I go by the feeling I get on the surface and that usually comes from the way a skater performs and relates to the music and their movements.

Things that never penetrate below the surface tend to slide off into the ether both quickly and easily. Which is why this program will be remembered for the controversy it generated and not the actual program. It's what? a little over two weeks since it was skated? And right now I remember the rope tugging opening, a few jumps and one unusual spin position. Oh--and waving at the crowd to egg on a response. Musn't forget that inspired touch of "choreography." That's all. In another two weeks I'll probably forget that as well.

YMMV of course.

 

[kwanatic]

Things that never penetrate below the surface tend to slide off into the ether both quickly and easily. Which is why this program will be remembered for the controversy it generated and not the actual program. It's what? a little over two weeks since it was skated? And right now I remember the rope tugging opening, a few jumps and one unusual spin position. That's all. In another two weeks I'll probably forget that as well.

YMMV of course.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But your perception of Adelina and her skating shape your opinion and retention when it comes to remembering things about her program. I don't remember anything about Tara Lipinski's 1998 Nagano FS other than her running across the ice 0.02 seconds after her ending position and then that eardrum-rupturing scream in the K&C when her scores came up. I didn't like the skater or the result so I didn't bother to remember it. I'm guessing you're the same way.

I wasn't thrilled with the results in Sochi but I will always remember Adelina's skate. Not b/c the choreography was so profound or b/c she was so elegant/gorgeous/etc. I'll remember it b/c she skated extremely well for the first time in years under the most tremendous pressure imaginable.

She delivered. Plain and simple. She created an amazing Olympic moment by skating the way she did under the circumstances, and that's what the Olympics are about. I don't care about the scores or the medals. The reason I enjoyed the Olympics so much was b/c of the incredible performances so many of my favorite skaters had.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But your perception of Adelina and her skating shape your opinion and retention when it comes to remembering things about her program. I don't remember anything about Tara Lipinski's 1998 Nagano FS other than her running across the ice 0.02 seconds after her ending position and then that eardrum-rupturing scream in the K&C when her scores came up. I didn't like the skater or the result so I didn't bother to remember it. I'm guessing you're the same way.

I wasn't thrilled with the results in Sochi but I will always remember Adelina's skate. Not b/c the choreography was so profound or b/c she was so elegant/gorgeous/etc. I'll remember it b/c she skated extremely well for the first time in years under the most tremendous pressure imaginable.

She delivered. Plain and simple. She created an amazing Olympic moment by skating the way she did under the circumstances, and that's what the Olympics are about. I don't care about the scores or the medals. The reason I enjoyed the Olympics so much was b/c of the incredible performances so many of my favorite skaters had.

Please don't assume you know how I feel. That's very annoying. I can't say I can even muster up enough energy to say I don't like Sotnikova. She leaves me indifferent. Which is a very different thing than dislike.

 

[kwanatic]

Please don't assume you know how I feel. That's very annoying. I can't say I can even muster up enough energy to say I don't like Sotnikova. She leaves me indifferent. Which is a very different thing than dislike.

Well IDK if you're aware of it but your tone implies dislike, not indifference. That's why I assumed. You're right though, I don't know how you feel.

I'll leave it at that. Carry on...

 

[WeakAnkles]

What I dislike is that the choreography--which even you described as full of movements in the middle that are there "to chew up time"--is being held up as the best choreographed Ladies LP at the Olympics. Why bother hiring a choreographer or finding the right music when you can fill your program with a lot of jumps and spins and "transitions" that don't add up to anything if the "best choreographed program" for the ladies at the Olympics is chock full of movement designed "to chew up time." Just do a lot of movement and jumps and spins until the clock runs out. That is very different from saying I don't like Sotnikova. She's has technical ability and talent that is in the top tier of women currently skating. But overall she leaves no impression on me at all.

 

[jenaj]

No double standard. To be brief, Olympic gold medals go first to the bold who deliver. Yuna delivered but she wasn't bold.

ETA: And on that side-by-side video, what really stood out to me in comparison was Yuna's flexed foot.

So you have a double standard. I don't think you are alone in that. Many fans hold Yuna in higher regard and often expect her to outdo her past performances. If that is what you meant, I can relate to it. Although unlike you I was moved by her Olympic performance.

But when it comes to "getting you wrong," that is not my intention. To the contrary I want to get you right. That is why I am asking. You say Yuna stayed in her comfort zone. Well, the facts on the ground tell a different story. Had she wanted to ride easy, she could have recycled her 2013 programs which were already proven in WC 2013. That she and Wilson wanted something special for the farewell and the Olympics, with distinctively different programs than what Yuna had done prior to this year, is in itself a testament to her dedication. (as a matter of fact, there was a huge debate how well such different programs suit her on this board) There are many skaters who reused their previous season's programs for the Olympics. In Adelina's case, she used the same program that she used for her junior competition, I've heard. Yes, Yuna does the same jumps but who doesn't?

So I am left puzzled by statements such as "Yuna played it safe" (a la Weir) because I honestly don't know what that means. It's not like she skipped a planned element in her routine.

It would be easier for me to understand if someone simply stated Yuna's skating is not her/his cup of tea. But a lot of rationalization on Sochi results are bogus claims made in bad-faith or from ignorance.

Edit: Remember Johnny Weir in Vancouver? Many were moved by his performance and thought he had given it all. But that doesn't mean he was good enough for a medal.

Edit 2: I also strongly believe that those who think Yuna's skate was "tentative" are mistaken. It is clearly the double-standard effect that people have on Yuna. Yes, she no longer does frantic programs like Danse Macabre that's exciting at first sight. But if you go back and watch that program (2009 World version is considered the best), you can see rough edges around her skate. Those are all but gone now in "Send in the Clowns" and "Adios Nonino." Against Adelina, there is no comparison. Again, I suggest you watch the side-by-side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NIHBJBAqU

Try to watch them as if you never saw them skate before. Forget Yuna's past performances. See who looks more comfortable and who looks more cautious on the ice. Ignore Adelina's half-open mouth smile throughout the program not just because it has nothing to do with skating but it's also unattractive.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why bother hiring a choreographer or finding the right music when you can fill your program with a lot of jumps and spins and "transitions" that don't add up to anything if the "best choreographed program" for the ladies at the Olympics is chock full of movement designed "to chew up time."

Yuna's program was judged the best on PCS.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Yuna's program was judged the best on PCS.

I'm not talking about PCS as a whole, just choreography, and Sotnikova's 9.5 was the highest score of any woman in the LP.

 

[bara1968]

Well Sot's was judged as virtual tie in PCS

I really wanted to understand how Sot's 75ish PCS can be justified along with her massive PCS in Carmen SP yet no one could provide any solid reasoning so far. (In 3weeks!)

It's becoming hilarious. If Sot was judged fairly and did not win gold, (she would win bronze) she would get massive praise by now as a future leading lady in fs rather than this much harsh criticism.

 

[Nadya]

What I dislike is that the choreography--which even you described as full of movements in the middle that are there "to chew up time"--is being held up as the best choreographed Ladies LP at the Olympics. Why bother hiring a choreographer or finding the right music when you can fill your program with a lot of jumps and spins and "transitions" that don't add up to anything if the "best choreographed program" for the ladies at the Olympics is chock full of movement designed "to chew up time." Just do a lot of movement and jumps and spins until the clock runs out. That is very different from saying I don't like Sotnikova. She's has technical ability and talent that is in the top tier of women currently skating. But overall she leaves no impression on me at all.

Leaving an impression on you is not a judging criteria.

 

[ILuvYuna]

hit the wrong button, editing now...

 

[WeakAnkles]

Leaving an impression on you is not a judging criteria.

I never said it was. I was responding to another person on here who assumed I dislike Sotnikova. That is all.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

hit the wrong button, editing now...

 

[kwanatic]

What I dislike is that the choreography--which even you described as full of movements in the middle that are there "to chew up time"--is being held up as the best choreographed Ladies LP at the Olympics. Why bother hiring a choreographer or finding the right music when you can fill your program with a lot of jumps and spins and "transitions" that don't add up to anything if the "best choreographed program" for the ladies at the Olympics is chock full of movement designed "to chew up time." Just do a lot of movement and jumps and spins until the clock runs out. That is very different from saying I don't like Sotnikova. She's has technical ability and talent that is in the top tier of women currently skating. But overall she leaves no impression on me at all.

I don't think you can find one person who will say Adelina's FS was the best choreographed program at that event. If your issue is with the scores then I get it. The prevailing opinion re: the scores she received in Sochi is that they were mega-inflated and she didn't deserve that high of a score for CH or any of the categories she was overscored in. We agree in this matter. :thumbsup:

As for choreography: essentially choreography is nothing but jumps, spins, transitions and movements...it's the way they are arranged to the music and delivered by the skater that makes all of those individual parts a whole (a program). Just like skaters differ in style and talent, so do choreographers. Tchernyshev isn't a good choreographer IMO but Adelina works with what she's given and delivers it as best as she can...even though it stinks.

I get that you're not that impressed with Adelina and much less so with her choreography. I felt the same way about Gracie last year. I saw her appeal but it wasn't presented in a way that left any kind of impact/impression on me. TBH I thought she was kinda dull and boring and very over-hyped. However, she made really good improvements this year. My opinion of her has changed and I've warmed up to her. Maybe Adelina will improve in the next few years and you'll warm up to her too. But for now she is not your cuppa...nothing wrong with that.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I don't think you can find one person who will say Adelina's FS was the best choreographed program at that event. If your issue is with the scores then I get it. The prevailing opinion re: the scores she received in Sochi is that they were mega-inflated and she didn't deserve that high of a score for CH or any of the categories she was overscored in. We agree in this matter. :thumbsup:

As for choreography: essentially choreography is nothing but jumps, spins, transitions and movements...it's the way they are arranged to the music and delivered by the skater that makes all of those individual parts a whole (a program). Just like skaters differ in style and talent, so do choreographers. Tchernyshev isn't a good choreographer IMO but Adelina works with what she's given and delivers it as best as she can...even though it stinks.

I get that you're not that impressed with Adelina and much less so with her choreography. I felt the same way about Gracie last year. I saw her appeal but it wasn't presented in a way that left any kind of impact/impression on me. TBH I thought she was kinda dull and boring and very over-hyped. However, she made really good improvements this year. My opinion of her has changed and I've warmed up to her. Maybe Adelina will improve in the next few years and you'll warm up to her too. But for now she is not your cuppa...nothing wrong with that.

Bingo.

To me this is a thread about choreography. Not how it was delivered, but the actual choreography. And that Sotnikova received the highest score at the Olympics for choreography of all the women's programs to me is appalling. I even said it the night it was originally performed (you can check the Ladies LP thread). That's all I've been talking about. That's why I originally said the program wasn't choreographed but constructed. In a way it's funny because what Sotnikova and her support people did was simply a variation on what Lysacek did in Vancouver: game the system for points. Doesn't matter if it makes for a memorable program (Evan's certainly wasn't), but it works the system for maximum payback. Sandra Bezic was the only one on the NBC team who raised that concern. I would love to hear what she has to say. I'm sure it would be very interesting.

And you're completely right about how someone may not be your cuppa now, but might be in the future. I was like that about Kostner, for instance. Right now, Sotinikova just leaves me indifferent (this is a step up from last year's shriekfest of a LP where I literally turned the sound off each time I watched it). She certainly has tons of potential. I love the one spin and her jumps are very impressive. But the rest of her skating is nowhere near the ability of her technical elements. At least for me. At least not yet.

One last thing. Sorry to snap at you about assuming what I feel. It's just that I see people doing that on boards before and it leads to a lot of misunderstandings and arguments and such. And frankly, it's too early in the day here for that! I haven't even had my second cuppa (of tea) yet!

 

[kwanatic]

Bingo.

To me this is a thread about choreography. Not how it was delivered, but the actual choreography. And that Sotnikova received the highest score at the Olympics for choreography of all the women's programs to me is appalling. I even said it the night it was originally performed (you can check the Ladies LP thread). That's all I've been talking about. That's why I originally said the program wasn't choreographed but constructed. In a way it's funny because what Sotnikova and her support people did was simply a variation on what Lysacek did in Vancouver: game the system for points. Doesn't matter if it makes for a memorable program (Evan's certainly wasn't), but it works the system for maximum payback. Sandra Bezic was the only one on the NBC team who raised that concern. I would love to hear what she has to say. I'm sure it would be very interesting.

And you're completely right about how someone may not be your cuppa now, but might be in the future. I was like that about Kostner, for instance. Right now, Sotinikova just leaves me indifferent (this is a step up from last year's shriekfest of a LP where I literally turned the sound off each time I watched it). She certainly has tons of potential. I love the one spin and her jumps are very impressive. But the rest of her skating is nowhere near the ability of her technical elements. At least for me. At least not yet.

One last thing. Sorry to snap at you about assuming what I feel. It's just that I see people doing that on boards before and it leads to a lot of misunderstandings and arguments and such. And frankly, it's too early in the day here for that! I haven't even had my second cuppa (of tea) yet!

No offense taken, WeakAnkles. I definitely got where you were coming from when I thought about my feelings towards Gracie last year. It wasn't that I disliked her...she was just meh to me.

And I'm a reformed Carolina-hater too! I definitely didn't like her at all back in 2007-2008. After Vancouver when she dumbed down her content and started really skating...that's where I fell in love with her.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As for choreography: essentially choreography is nothing but jumps, spins, transitions and movements...it's the way they are arranged to the music and delivered by the skater that makes all of those individual parts a whole (a program). Just like skaters differ in style and talent, so do choreographers. Tchernyshev isn't a good choreographer IMO but Adelina works with what she's given and delivers it as best as she can...even though it stinks.

Oh it wasn't bad. A lot of her choreography did fit the music:
1) At the beginning of the program, as the music builds her movement reflects the crescendo as she gains speed for her 3/3 (and without needeing to do six back crossovers, thank you very much)
2) The slow section in which she is doing MIF is very much in the character of the music.
3) The 2A-3T punctuates the end of a slow musical section in perfect time.