Sonia Bianchetti about Olympics

Sorry, I'm with waxel. I got Latin-danced out. HATED Matthews/Zavozin, was glad they didn't go after seeing them at Nationls. Silverstein/O'Meara were okay, and Belbin/Agosto (flamenco, not tango, btw) were technically proficient, but when the OD is Latin rhythms? PICK SOMETHING ELSE FOR THE FREE DANCE. Very, very very tiring to see people stomping around (point your ***-**** toe, Tanith) shaking their shoulders and twisting their arms in an attempt to add Latin flare, after having had to sit through it for the OD, too. And while at least Tanith wasn't wearing the thing she's been wearing all season for the FD, the replacement wasn't a whole lot better. (At least Silverstein had a tasteful dress. And, of course, Grushina set the new low standard for Worst Ice Dance Dress Of All Time If You Can Call That A Dress.)

Why do they call it Latin anyway, the Latinos I've known (from a lot of different countries) don't dance anything like that. At it's best, real latin dancing is smooth and light and limber and not the horrible, unaesthetic, spastic contortions that ice dancers (and ballroom danders) go through. The closest to something like a true Latin line I thought was the French guy.

Mafke said:

Why do they call it Latin anyway, the Latinos I've known (from a lot of different countries) don't dance anything like that. At it's best, real latin dancing is smooth and light and limber and not the horrible, unaesthetic, spastic contortions that ice dancers (and ballroom danders) go through. The closest to something like a true Latin line I thought was the French guy.

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And it's downbeat. It's not just shaking the hips I really think Latin Dances should be expunged from figure skating since no couple has the rhythym except Galler-Rabinowitz and Miller. They're the only ones who got it on the downbeat. the others just flung their arms around as they do in polkas, waltzes, and free dance tricks. the latin music was basically background.

Joe

Joesitz said:

And it's downbeat. It's not just shaking the hips I really think Latin Dances should be expunged from figure skating since no couple has the rhythym except Galler-Rabinowitz and Miller. They're the only ones who got it on the downbeat. the others just flung their arms around as they do in polkas, waltzes, and free dance tricks. the latin music was basically background.

Joe

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*psst* If you're talking about Lauren's partner, his name is David Mitchell.

It is possible to have Latin flair, but really, it's easier in the compulsories where you don't have to worry about doing 101 Twizzles and a Catchfoot every five mintues. It's through the knee--the knee and leg action and the finish is different if you're doing a tango or a paso doble than it is for a waltz. I got to see an example of this watching a test session where the same dancer tested three dances, two waltzes and a tango. In practice, he had real tango flair, but by the time he got to the actual test he was still in 'waltz mode'.

Actually I think it might help to make the ice dancers watch high-level compeition Latin Ballroom. Most of those dancers have a way of putting character into dances that doesn't involve random flailing. (Okay, some godawful costumes, too, but still.) Especially true Argentine tango. Some of that would be hard to recreate on skates, but not impossible to adapt.

Joesitz said:

And it's downbeat. It's not just shaking the hips I really think Latin Dances should be expunged from figure skating since no couple has the rhythym except Galler-Rabinowitz and Miller. They're the only ones who got it on the downbeat. the others just flung their arms around as they do in polkas, waltzes, and free dance tricks. the latin music was basically background.
Joe

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Also in real latin dancing ime they don't shake their hips, they alternate bending and straightening their legs (with a slight outward twist). The hip movement is a secondary effect of the the leg movement. In some areas, shaking the butt is also a possiblity (but it's out there, they stick it out and rattle it side to side, lots of fun).
It's not the pseudo hootchie koo that ice dancers and ballroom dancers engage in. Real latin dancing would be wonderful, but unless they rework the standards and punish all the nostril flaring and SM interplay, they should just junk it.

julietvalcouer said:

I got Latin-danced out. HATED Matthews/Zavozin, was glad they didn't go after seeing them at Nationls. Silverstein/O'Meara were okay, and Belbin/Agosto (flamenco, not tango, btw) were technically proficient, but when the OD is Latin rhythms? PICK SOMETHING ELSE FOR THE FREE DANCE. Very, very very tiring to see people stomping around (point your ***-**** toe, Tanith) shaking their shoulders and twisting their arms in an attempt to add Latin flare, after having had to sit through it for the OD, too.

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I agree. The Latin-themed FDs pissed me off after the OD Latin rhythms at the Olympics! I could only tolerate certain ODs...like (I'm so biased, they're like the only dance team I'm into right now but IMO they're a good example) the Kerrs who have actual dance training and dance coaches and UTILIZE IT in their program!

I totally agree with Joe that ice dancers ought to sit down and watch real ballroom dancers and different types of dances to get the feel down. They're not really out there dancing, most of them; it seems like the music is just kind of there, they're not working with it or against it or utilizing their bodies in any way that compliments the music flavor/theme/whatever.

Basically I like the idea of COP.

The facts needs to be changed are:
1. The requirements about the elements: those "Bielmann-like" moves are boring and look-alike one's. Also the spins with so many changes are ugly in singles and pairs as well. They have to change the rules about "levels" (maybe regurarly?).
Nothing wrong with that, everybody does the moves which worths the most points. It is less artistry maybe but more chance to see the athletes' quality compair to each other. The old "nostalgic" days are over , you can't keep a sport like that in a hand of 5-10 persons!!!The problem is: everybody feel free to try moves and jumps, they are not able to do in a perfect way, and they does it, because they can earn points even with a fully rotated but not landed jump. THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST FAULT OF THE SYSTEM, because of that:

2. The judges should give -3+3 points ONLY for a fully rotated, somehow landed jumps.
They have to rethink their marks on it. I don't want to see any skaters to try a jump they never finished succesfully and becoming injured all the time.
If it is so, it is point 0 plus 1 point deduction!!!
Nowdays they can earn quite many points with rotated quad or triple jumps, even if no one of them was landed. That is WRONG esthetically, and very dangerous injuries-wise!!!!!

3. The most important thing: we need 2 sets of judges: f.e 6 judges gives the COE and another 6 judges gives the " artistic(?)" points. At this way this 2 sets of points can be as independent to each other as possible.

4.The question of anonimity: the existance of this "rule" is basically ridiculous, but please, think about it: WHY it is decided so...................................................
It is tragical, but can be true, the judges are more able to explain their real opinion in this way, without being executed or killed by their own Federation afterword. Shamely , and strangely this anonimity can give more "professionalism" than "bias" in the judgement........
It is sad, tragical, and dramatic, but-unfortunately- I can imagine more fair to the skaters, than having judges just to vote their "own" skaters (doesn't matter their real quality), what their own Federation wishes by them. At least, there is a chance to some professional, and braveheart judges to give the points they really thinks to give without disappearing from the scene very soon.
Think! Which Federation will send Mrs.X to the next WorldChamps., if their own skater lost its place in a tough competition, because their judge was not vote for her/him, because had an opinion, the other skater was so much better:
The sad thing: Mr Cinquanta have seen this problem ( at least, he had to, because he made this "secret" rules), and he NEVER tried to do anything against it for MANY years, and he'd never do anything without the Olys Scandal, which was much more public than any other events!!!!
IF THEY FIND A WAY HOW TO SAVE THE HONEST JUDGES, ONLY THAN THEY CAN CANCEL THE SECRET JUDGING!!!! (unfortunately).

5. The things they have to keep in the system:
a., the randomized selection of the judges whose points are in count.
b. the cancellation of the highest and lowest points.
Those 2 rules are clearly against bias.

The points to be given for different elements has to be revised time-to-time, regurarly.

The skaters has to find the way how to use this rule, which needs time.
The only discipline, it never will really be succesfull, it is the dance , where they have to have more freedom somehow. But in the other hand :more freedom in the rules means more bias..............

We can't change the persons, who are involved in this game, we need a system which can work in the possibly most fair way with these same people((

Good post, Bigdeal! and we're back to topic. But I just want to acknowledge a few things about Latin dancing.

Juliet - Thanks for psst. It's early morning and I wasn't thinking clearly.

Everyone else who dislikes latin dancing on skates, I'm a part of that group.
Mafke, you are absolutely correct about the legs bending and straightening which causes the hips to undulate and it is not necessary for anyone to force the hips to sway back and forth. However, I wouldn't look too much at the top ballroom dances for guidance. I find those teams too theatricalized and not natural. Next time you watch latin dancing just look at the average Jose move his legs.

Lanie - Couldn't agree with you more. Problem is the Ballroom Dancers are competing in Dance; the Ice Dancers are competing for points, and the variations on shoot the duck (very latin - no?) get mucho points and the music is incidental.

Joe

bigdeal said:

4.It is tragical, but can be true, the judges are more able to explain their real opinion in this way, without being executed or killed by their own Federation afterword. Shamely , and strangely this anonimity can give more "professionalism" than "bias" in the judgement........
If they find a way how to save the honest judges, only then they can cancel the secret judging!!!! (unfortunately)

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This point is especially brought to the fore when the judges' performances are evaluated by the ISU committee at the end of the season. When a judge's marks are called into question, the committee members only see the marks, they do not know the identities of the judges that they are evaluating. Therefore, they can't just let their friends get away with cheating and incompetence.

I agree that Cinquanto has always known about this problem but has not been able to do much about it. IMO he is walking a thin line. On the one hand, he would like to strengthen the role of the ISU as an organization (that is, he would like to be a bigger big shot himself, independent of the member federations). But on the other, he serves at the pleasure of the very national federations that he would like to see weakened.

If Cinquanta had his way, all of the judges would be appointed directly by the ISU itself from an international pool of ISU-trained judges. That way the national federations would have less influence over the judges.

He is halfway toward his goal. The all-powerful technical specialist (caller) and his assistant do work directly for the ISU, not for their national federation. Whether this is a step in the right direction of not depends on who you trust more -- Speedy or Piseev.

But even so, I do not like secret judging. Even though it may afford some protection for people like Madam La Gougne from being picked on by Didier Gailhauget, still, IMO it is a public relations disaster.

In terms of public perception, this just promotes the idea that figure skating contest are all fixed, with the winners pre-determined behind closed doors out of the public spotlight.

5. The things they have to keep in the system:
a., the randomized selection of the judges whose points are in count.
b. the cancellation of the highest and lowest points.
Those 2 rules are clearly against bias.

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IMO the random selection is equally likely to cuttail cheating or to enhance it, all depending on a flip of the coin. Let us suppose that four judges on a panel of 12 are acting in concert (whether because of an actual conspiracy or just because of cultural affinity). Now the random draw eliminates three judges at random.

If two or three of the conspiring clique are eliminated, this is good. If three of the "good" judges are thrown out instead, the gang of four is in a stronger position than ever before to influence the outcome disproportionately.

So the random draw might help the prospects of fair judging, or it might cause harm instead. (Using the votes of all 12, with the three lowest and the two highest eliminated would take away this possibility of the bad guys increasing their strength by random factors.)

JMO

Mathman

He is halfway toward his goal. The all-powerful technical specialist (caller) and his assistant do work directly for the ISU, not for their national federation. Whether this is a step in the right direction of not depends on who you trust more -- Speedy or Piseev.

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MM - Bless you for reading all this. I keep putting it off. I was just wondering who is it exactly who appoints the TA and his crony. I presume it is a draw from a barrel of names. But those names are well known federation names. Am I going to far astray?

My concern with Federations that must win at all costs is that they will only take action to fix a competition, if there is doubt that two or more teams run neck and neck and both teams skate their best. That was the scenario in SLC. Both the Pairs and the Dance competitions were really hot.

In Torino, the outcome of all disciplines was pretty much the way it turned out (except for Ladies) based on past compeititions. None of them were really hot. There was no reason for any type of collusion.

Joe

Linny, I actually didn't get excited by the music of Belbin & Augusto, Silverstein and O'Meira OR Matthews and Zavozin. I'm not saying the programs were bad------just that the music didn't move me. And although I didn't mention it in my previous post, I TOTALLY agree with julietvalcouer (and others) who pointed out the terrible choice of many top teams to do a Latin free dance ON TOP of the Latin OD. Guess I just grew weary of all those tired accordian riffs.

And Lanie... John Kerr could just STAND there and get top component scores in my book!

waxel said:

John Kerr could just STAND there and get top component scores in my book!

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For me, the Kerrs Dance on ice; the others perform Vaudeville on ice.

Joe

waxel said:

Linny, I actually didn't get excited by the music of Belbin & Augusto, Silverstein and O'Meira OR Matthews and Zavozin. I'm not saying the programs were bad------just that the music didn't move me. And although I didn't mention it in my previous post, I TOTALLY agree with julietvalcouer (and others) who pointed out the terrible choice of many top teams to do a Latin free dance ON TOP of the Latin OD. Guess I just grew weary of all those tired accordian riffs.

And Lanie... John Kerr could just STAND there and get top component scores in my book!

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ROFL! I agree, I agree.

To be serious I do agree with Joe; I think that's one of the main reasons I like them so much. They *gasp* DANCE!

Mathman said:

Whether this is a step in the right direction or not depends on who you trust more -- Speedy or Piseev.

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Is there a door #3?