Canadian Skaters: From Favs to Underdogs?

Ten and Reynolds have jump problems because their coach Joanne McLeod has taught them a notoriously bad axel technique. She also has a habit of complaining in the media about their low PCS scores, blaming the judges instead of accepting the feedback and finding ways of improving their artistry.

Bad coaching can certainly handicap skaters on the international circuit. That's happened to Ten and Reynolds, as well as to former McLeod student Mira Leung.

given McLeods track record including the under-achieving Emmanuel Sandu, who's responsibility is it to make the changes required to enable young gifted skaters like Reynolds and Ten to succeed. Is it up to the skaters alone? Does Skate Canada get involved - after all they provide some funding so I would think should have some input - ????? If they dont want to leave McLeod totally can speciality coaches be brought in to work on problem areas ( like jump tecnique )?
Is Mira Leung still competing?
By the way - thanks for responding - I'm not new to being passionate about skating but I am new at posting on forums !!

gottadance said:

Like many of you I do love Joannie but seems she has become an expert in making excuses - " I went to Peru for 3 weeks " " I am jet lagged " etc. Hoe she has the courage to confront her demons ( nerves ) and find a way to ackowledge the problem and a wy to deal with it at competitions.

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*ahem* Any comments to make about these excuses, i love to skate?

Personally...when a skater (or any athlete) is prompted by reporters and interviewers to "give us a reason why you didn't perform as well as you could/should have", I prefer to accept what they say and leave it at that. To call them "excuses" is to imply that the skater doesn't want to take responsibility for their own shortcomings or are being dishonest, but whatever's bugging their mental state is something that's disrupting their concentration so I accept what they say as explanations. Relatedly, more than a handful of people say the same about YuNa, but let's be real, guys. You don't become a champion and elite skater by making excuses for your own weaknesses rather than acknowledging them and dealing with them.

I have read an interview by Joannie after the GPF where she said she was feeling pretty confident and that she "didn't really know" what happened. Somewhere, long ago on this forum, a poster (I don't remember who) commented that she felt rather concerned about Joannie because Joannie had said something to that effect elsewhere; that poster said she wasn't sure that Joannie knew where her strengths and confidence came from, and that could serve to be a recipe for disappointment later on.

I don't feel that either Joannie or YuNa are dishonest excuse-makers, and they are just being honest airing their thoughts into the open. And I am not targetting just you, gottadance, specifically when I say these things; but the impression and complaints of others, as well.

gottadance said:

Like many of you I do love Joannie but seems she has become an expert in making excuses - " I went to Peru for 3 weeks " " I am jet lagged " etc.

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But she said jet lag wasn't the reason for her performance at the GPF:

"I would like to be able to attribute it to something and know exactly what went wrong, and tell you it's either jet lag or nerves, but honestly, it's not that,'' she said from Tokyo.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/worldcupwatch/sport=fs/newsid=21569.html

prettykeys said:

*ahem* Any comments to make about these excuses, i love to skate?

Relatedly, more than a handful of people say the same about YuNa, but let's be real, guys. You don't become a champion and elite skater by making excuses for your own weaknesses rather than acknowledging them and dealing with them.

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As for YuNa, prettykeys, my biggest point was that she was letting distractions throw her off her game - things such as her skates being too tight, not being able to shake a fall, and the ice disturbing one of her jumps. I suggested that she needed to toughen up mentally so that she is able to focus more on her performance. That's my opinion and I stand by it - of course I understand that others feel differently.

prettykeys said:

*ahem* Any comments to make about these excuses, i love to skate?

Personally...when a skater (or any athlete) is prompted by reporters and interviewers to "give us a reason why you didn't perform as well as you could/should have", I prefer to accept what they say and leave it at that. To call them "excuses" is to imply that the skater doesn't want to take responsibility for their own shortcomings or are being dishonest, but whatever's bugging their mental state is something that's disrupting their concentration so I accept what they say as explanations. Relatedly, more than a handful of people say the same about YuNa, but let's be real, guys. You don't become a champion and elite skater by making excuses for your own weaknesses rather than acknowledging them and dealing with them.

I have read an interview by Joannie after the GPF where she said she was feeling pretty confident and that she "didn't really know" what happened. Somewhere, long ago on this forum, a poster (I don't remember who) commented that she felt rather concerned about Joannie because Joannie had said something to that effect elsewhere; that poster said she wasn't sure that Joannie knew where her strengths and confidence came from, and that could serve to be a recipe for disappointment later on.

I don't feel that either Joannie or YuNa are dishonest excuse-makers, and they are just being honest airing their thoughts into the open. And I am not targetting just you, gottadance, specifically when I say these things; but the impression and complaints of others, as well.

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i love to skate said:

But she said jet lag wasn't the reason for her performance at the GPF:

"I would like to be able to attribute it to something and know exactly what went wrong, and tell you it's either jet lag or nerves, but honestly, it's not that,'' she said from Tokyo.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/worldcupwatch/sport=fs/newsid=21569.html

As for YuNa, prettykeys, my biggest point was that she was letting distractions throw her off her game - things such as her skates being too tight, not being able to shake a fall, and the ice disturbing one of her jumps. I suggested that she needed to toughen up mentally so that she is able to focus more on her performance. That's my opinion and I stand by it - of course I understand that others feel differently.

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I hate favouritist double-standards, so I'mma take a stab at it. (I have an excellent memory - it's hard to slip things by me. )

Nadia01 said:

I think during morning practice, she damaged her left blade (the article said inside edge was damaged or something...). I saw some photos of her showing her blade to Orser and so on, but I had no idea what was going on. She said an emergency repair was made, but of course it's not like skating on an undamaged blade.

However, she said she doesn't believe that the blade should be blamed for her performance. She said her performance at the competition was unsatisfactory but she's happy that she won.

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http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29745&page=11

About which you wrote:

i love to skate said:

Her last three competitions she has made statements about the ice affecting her jumps, her skates being too tight, how a fall in the warm up was hard to shake, and now her blade had issues on Saturday. IMO, they sound a bit like excuses. I said it before, she needs a tougher mental game and needs to not get so distracted by little things.

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At which point I am compelled to say:

Perhaps people should focus on their own favourites instead of making petty small-talk about other skaters, especially one whose so-called "need" "to toughen up mentally" has given her an undefeated season thus far...because it sure looks like to me that others' need for that is greater. Overscored, overcredited, CoP'd out as YuNa may be, no one is calling her an "underdog".

I love to skate:

I know you mean well (I think at least) and I know you like Joannie but not Yuna, which is fine by me, but I do find it disingenuous and annoying when you say:

"she needs a tougher mental game and needs to not get so distracted by little things'

esp. since this is the SECOND time you've said it.

What about Joannie? She bombed so many programs so far this year, and her GPF LP was a complete mess & scored sub-100. We all know she's capable of doing better than that. She can land solid 3/2 if not 3/3 and other jumps beautifully. So following your logic, shouldn't Joannie get a "tougher mental game" so she doesn't "get so distracted by little things"? That way, maybe she can not bomb so much and win more international competitions?

I also think that a damaged blade is hardly a "small thing" unless I'm wrong about this and skaters have NO PROBLEM skating with damaged blades.

prettykeys said:

You're illogical..

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You're kidding, right? You're calling skaters who switch from representing Canada to represent another Country *and*, more importantly I think, live their dreams of skating at Worlds or Olympics thanks to having duel Citizenship "Trators", pitching a royal hissy fit over it and you're accusing someone else as being illiogical!?!

Thanks for the badly needed laugh. I needed that today.

Now, how about we get back on topic...

Regarding SC, more to the point, Joannie's LP...

I really think we have to take, not just Joannie's skate that day, but all of the performances that Saturday w/a huge grain of salt. I was at SC and for some unknown reason, they had the Aud freezing on Saturday. Tempertures that would be dead on if the Kitchener Rangers would have been playing and the ice was rock hard thanks to that.

Friday and Sunday, the rink was much warmer and in turn, we had that nice soft and tacky ice skaters need to perform at their best. The performances we saw those two days compared to what we saw on Saturday more than proves that point.

I mean...When you could hear Tessa and Scott's edges clear as day, all of the slips/falls in the OD, the guys doing very careful footwork when the girls were up in lifts for Pairs and then the Mens and Ladies events where everyone had trouble, but especially w/the edge jumps and...

Just something to keep in mind when talking about SC this year. As for Patrick, if I had to read one more article or hear about "what a shocker it was for him to perform so badly...", I was going to screech!! I mean...For crying out loud the kid's just coming back from an injury that kept him off the ice for nearly three months. Of course the Patrick we saw in Kitchener was the Patrick we got and that shouldn't have been shocking for anyone other than the most casual of fans.

Of course, that's not the way the Media plays things though...

As for Joannie...She's never been a World Medalist before and I think she's still trying to figure it all out. Especially the balancing act part of it. It's just her rotten luck it's all happening to her the same year as the Olympics and an Olympics at Home to boot.

I think Joannie will figure out what needs to be done to get that confidence back up. She was already saying at the GPF what she really needs to be doing is runthrough after runthrough after runthrough and that had been missing a bit this Fall.

Too many demands on her time by Sponsors and what not? Yes, Skate Canada should be doing a better job of keeping that at a bare minimum, but especially this year. If she's been having to do this for the Sponsors, then appear here to talk to kids, then here to perform a show, then here to compete....

Something's going to give somewhere.

Not giving her an excuse, but just saying that's what could be going on.

Anyway...Just my two cents Cdn.

Nadia01 said:

I love to skate:

I know you mean well (I think at least) and I know you like Joannie but not Yuna, which is fine by me, but I do find it disingenuous and annoying when you say:

"she needs a tougher mental game and needs to not get so distracted by little things'

esp. since this is the SECOND time you've said it.

What about Joannie? She bombed so many programs so far this year, and her GPF LP was a complete mess & scored sub-100. We all know she's capable of doing better than that. She can land solid 3/2 if not 3/3 and other jumps beautifully. So following your logic, shouldn't Joannie get a "tougher mental game" so she doesn't "get so distracted by little things"? That way, maybe she can not bomb so much and win more international competitions?

I also think that a damaged blade is hardly a "small thing" unless I'm wrong about this and skaters have NO PROBLEM skating with damaged blades.

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I agree that Joannie needs to step up this season. She has not been skating up to her standards and has let silly mistakes happen such as not holding her spirals for long enough and not getting enough rotation on her spins. She is feeling pressure for the first time in her career and has let too many outside influences into her life which have affected her performances and distracted her- apperances, travel, etc.

As for YuNa, my opinion wasn't an insult, it's just my opinion. Wouldn't you say that YuNa has "bombed" some programs this year as well? All of the ladies have been struggling and have been landing 3 or 4 triples. BTW, I enjoy her short programs and I think she is a great skater with some fantastic jumps!

Thanks for a civil discussion :yes:

i love to skate said:

I agree that Joannie needs to step up this season. She has not been skating up to her standards and has let silly mistakes happen such as not holding her spirals for long enough and not getting enough rotation on her spins. She is feeling pressure for the first time in her career and has let too many outside influences into her life which have affected her performances and distracted her- apperances, travel, etc.

As for YuNa, my opinion wasn't an insult, it's just my opinion. Wouldn't you say that YuNa has "bombed" some programs this year as well? All of the ladies have been struggling and have been landing 3 or 4 triples. BTW, I enjoy her short programs and I think she is a great skater with some fantastic jumps!

Thanks for a civil discussion :yes:

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I hope Joannie can pu// it together. She's not my favorite skater per se -- something about her style just doesn't appeal to me though I recognize that she's an excellent skater -- but she's talented and have worked hard for so long to just waste it all away.

Yuna bombed too, and I'm not too thrilled with her GPF b/c I consider it worse than SA, where she had at least one brilliant program. It bugs me that so many ladies are falling apart, but I also think that ALL of them need to get tougher, not just Yuna, b/c obviously something's bugging them whether they say it or not.

I think Yuna is in an unenviable position to have to say something b/c of the relentless media attention & number of photos of her practice, etc. that get released on the Internet every hour. It's hard to say, "I'm not gonna answer that " or "I don't know" when people ask her point blank "Why did you mess up?" That's why I don't think she's making excuses, but rather in an uncomfortable position to have to say something. (Also the Korean media doesn't take it kindly when you ignore their questions or say "I don't know". They demand that you know so you can fix it, which can get a lil ridiculous...)

Thank you for your civil response.

Tigger said:

You're kidding, right? You're calling skaters who switch from representing Canada to represent another Country *and*, more importantly I think, live their dreams of skating at Worlds or Olympics thanks to having duel Citizenship "Trators", pitching a royal hissy fit over it and you're accusing someone else as being illiogical!?!

Thanks for the badly needed laugh. I needed that today.

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Poor Tigger.

Tigger said:

Just something to keep in mind when talking about SC this year. As for Patrick, if I had to read one more article or hear about "what a shocker it was for him to perform so badly...", I was going to screech!! I mean...For crying out loud the kid's just coming back from an injury that kept him off the ice for nearly three months. Of course the Patrick we saw in Kitchener was the Patrick we got and that shouldn't have been shocking for anyone other than the most casual of fans.

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In fairness, I thought Patrick's injury was a lot less serious than that and believed it was more a blip as opposed to a major hurdle. So yeah, his SC performance surprised me.

If Patrick Chan's injury was indeed that serious, then he should NOT have skated at SC, because he clearly was not physically trained enough to compete there. Perhaps he thought even a 50% Chan was good enough for a SC gold medal, or at least a podium spot, but instead he probably has set back his recovery from injury by a couple of weeks.

As for Joannie, with becoming a World medalwinner, she has made the transition from pursuer to pursued. That can be very uncomfortable and many skaters have struggled with that status (think Meissner, Kostner, and Asada, to name just a few). Joannie's confidence has always been just a tad shaky anyway, and suddenly being the one with the target on her back just adds to the stress.

nadia01 said:

i think yuna is in an unenviable position to have to say something b/c of the relentless media attention & number of photos of her practice, etc. That get released on the internet every hour. It's hard to say, "i'm not gonna answer that " or "i don't know" when people ask her point blank "why did you mess up?" that's why i don't think she's making excuses, but rather in an uncomfortable position to have to say something. (also the korean media doesn't take it kindly when you ignore their questions or say "i don't know". They demand that you know so you can fix it, which can get a lil ridiculous...)

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exactly!

gottadance said:

given McLeods track record including the under-achieving Emmanuel Sandu, who's responsibility is it to make the changes required to enable young gifted skaters like Reynolds and Ten to succeed. Is it up to the skaters alone? Does Skate Canada get involved - after all they provide some funding so I would think should have some input - ????? If they dont want to leave McLeod totally can speciality coaches be brought in to work on problem areas ( like jump tecnique )?
Is Mira Leung still competing?
By the way - thanks for responding - I'm not new to being passionate about skating but I am new at posting on forums !!

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IMO, I don't think that Skate Canada should force skaters to have a certain coach. Skaters need to take responsibility for their coaching selections and should change things when things aren't working. A stagnation in results where injuries aren't a factor is a sign that something is not working.

That said Skate Canada should have a method of "demoting" a coaches status ( re certification level ) when their skaters as a group stagnate.

As a high level certified coach ( Mcleod is at level 4 or 5 ), Mcleod gets to "coach the coaches" in Skate Canada endorsed coaching seminars. It would make sense that Skate Canada would want their most successful coaches to be coaching the coaches. Otherwise the bad habits of one coach will spread to the others and a much larger number of skaters will suffer.

BTW , Mira Leung is still competing. She just placed 9th in the challenge. She fell and underotated 2 jumps and popped another into a single in her FS.

It was a very bad challenge for the BC senior ladies. Mira was the only one to make it to nationals. Kang, Inoda, Witkowski and Little ( all who have had JGP experience ) , did not make it.

BTW , Kang and Inoda ( both who showed much promise as novices ) are both coached by Mcleod as well. Both have stagnated badly with Kang's performance at nationals last year an aberration.