Canadian Skaters: From Favs to Underdogs?

[chuckm]

LOTS of Canadians besides Takahashi/Tran compete for other countries.

JAMES/BONHEUR (FRA)- Vanessa James was born in Canada
RISSEEUW/PAXTON (GBR) - Erica was born in Canada, and they train in Canada
CRENSHAW/TSAGRIS (GRE) - Jessica is American and Chad was born in Canada. They train in Canada
JORG/KOENDERINK (NED) - Marylie and Benjamin were both born in Canada and they train in Canada
GOOD/SORENSEN (DEN) - Katelyn was born in Canada
FINDLAY/RICHAUD (FRA) - Terra was born in Canada (they split after last season)
GIORGIADIS/HOCKLEY (GRE)- Nikki and Graham both born and train in Canada

 

[prettykeys]

Aside from a couple butchered names, I fail to see any other examples where the athletes' ethnicities and/or coaches and/or place of training are different from the adopted country of representation.

:thumbsup: Canada: The World's Pushover.

 

[prettykeys]

LOTS of Canadians besides Takahashi/Tran compete for other countries.

JAMES/BONHEUR (FRA)- Vanessa James was born in Canada
RISSEEUW/PAXTON (GBR) - Erica was born in Canada, and they train in Canada
CRENSHAW/TSAGRIS (GRE) - Jessica is American and Chad was born in Canada. They train in Canada
JORG/KOENDERINK (NED) - Marylie and Benjamin were both born in Canada and they train in Canada
GOOD/SORENSEN (DEN) - Katelyn was born in Canada
FINDLAY/RICHAUD (FRA) - Terra was born in Canada (they split after last season)
GIORGIADIS/HOCKLEY (GRE)- Nikki and Graham both born and train in Canada

:thumbsup: Canada: The World's Pushover.

 

[i love to skate]

Aside from a couple butchered names, I fail to see any other examples where the athletes' ethnicities and/or coaches and/or place of training are different from the adopted country of representation.

:thumbsup: Canada: The World's Pushover.

How are we a pushover? We have the best coaches and ice time in the World. That's why people come here to train You can't force people to skate for your country!

ETA: Skaters also skate for other countries because there is a greater chance they will be able to skate on the World stage than there would be if they continued to compete for Canada. Canada has so much competition between our skaters.

 

[prettykeys]

How are we a pushover? We have the best coaches and ice time in the World. That's why people come here to train You can't force people to skate for your country!

ETA: Skaters also skate for other countries because there is a greater chance they will be able to skate on the World stage than there would be if they continued to compete for Canada. Canada has so much competition between our skaters.

Hmm, you're right! Good point.

Maybe some of the U.S. ladies who are in danger of not repping the U.S. should consider becoming Zimbabwean delegates. And come up to train in Canada!

 

[i love to skate]

Hmm, you're right! Good point.

Maybe some of the U.S. ladies who are in danger of not repping the U.S. should consider becoming Zimbabwean delegates. And come up to train in Canada!

Bit off topic, our Canadian ladies are just starting to rebound and have some pretty solid technique and power. I've very happy in the direction they are headed. Lacoste, Szmiett, and Charbonneau have very promising futures!

 

[Buttercup]

ETA: Skaters also skate for other countries because there is a greater chance they will be able to skate on the World stage than there would be if they continued to compete for Canada. Canada has so much competition between our skaters.

Exactly; it's no different from American and Russian skaters who represent/ed other countries, and for much the same reason.

Also, for pairs and dance teams, there are quite a few cases in which the partners are not from the same country (including Weaver/Poje - how long has she been Canadian? About six months, I believe). It's hard to find a good partner - especially in pairs - and if a skater finds someone who suits them and a partnership that offers a chance to move forward with their career, I don't think nationality should hold them back.

 

[mycelticblessing]

What the hell? I am sorry but that is unacceptable to me. Someone who is born in Canada, lives in Canada with all it has to offer (education, health care, etc.), learned to skate in Canada and then partners up with someone and continues to practice in Canada with Canadian coaches...while representing another country...I just feel that that is a little too much treachery.

I realize that nationalism is something of an outdated concept in today's increasingly multicultural world (and perhaps more so in Canada?) but I still can't help but feel this is a slap in the face that wouldn't be well-tolerated in too many other countries.

What Canada (or any other country) has to offer, comes from taxes, which his parents pay, so I don't see how what Tran is doing can be slammed as 'treachery'.

Nationalism matters more to some people and for others it's just a passport and an id. Personally, I agree with Buttercup that nationality shouldn't hold back any skater's career.

 

[prettykeys]

What Canada (or any other country) has to offer, comes from taxes, which his parents pay, so I don't see how what Tran is doing can be slammed as 'treachery'.

Nationalism matters more to some people and for others it's just a passport and an id. Personally, I agree with Buttercup that nationality shouldn't hold back any skater's career.

You're illogical.

Taxes = pooled resources for collective use. So I'm not objecting to Tran's use, per se. However, by your reasoning, my own taxes are supporting foreign athletes. Yippee!

Secondly, I highly doubt that Japan (or the other nations) are helping to pay for the upkeep of the rinks, the roads, the living space, etc., but thanks for offering that thought.

 

[sk8rdad]

What Canada (or any other country) has to offer, comes from taxes, which his parents pay, so I don't see how what Tran is doing can be slammed as 'treachery'.

Nationalism matters more to some people and for others it's just a passport and an id. Personally, I agree with Buttercup that nationality shouldn't hold back any skater's career.

Actually the real cost to have a skater in the sport comes straight out of either the skaters or more typically the parents pocket. Taxes contribute very little to the real cost of be involved in the sport in Canada. The bulk of riink maintenence is supported via the hocket and figure skating associations. Trust me I speak from experience.

 

[i love to skate]

Actually the real cost to have a skater in the sport comes straight out of either the skaters or more typically the parents pocket. Taxes contribute very little to the real cost of be involved in the sport in Canada. The bulk of riink maintenence is supported via the hocket and figure skating associations. Trust me I speak from experience.

Yes, but it does pay for health care and education, which is what I think prettykeys was referring to (correct me if I'm wrong). He continues to use these services but he doesn't represent Canada.

I wonder how he will get his Japanese citizenship if he trains and lives here. Because his parents are from two different countries he would have citizenship for those countries as well, wouldn't he? How many countries can you be a "citizen" of?

 

[antmanb]

I wonder how he will get his Japanese citizenship if he trains and lives here. Because his parents are from two different countries he would have citizenship for those countries as well, wouldn't he? How many countries can you be a "citizen" of?

As many as the various laws of the relevant countries allow. People who are dual nationality and more always get the same ole crap from the "nationalistic" folks

Ant

 

[janetfan]

If I am wrong about this I hope someone will correct me..........

Belbin and Augosto are an interesting example. Tanith was a Canadian and Ben is from USA.

I believe that to meet a deadline to skate internationally Ben applied for Candian citizenship so B/A could represent Canada. At the same time Tanith applied for US citizenship which would enable B/A to skate for USA.

If I remember right, USA processed Tanith's application very quickly and B/A became an "American" team. If Ben had been processed first and given Canadian citizenship then B/A would have become a Canadian team.

I don't think B/A cared which country they would represent, it was just a matter of them having the same "nationality" to be eligible for international events.

Many skaters over the years have switched nationalities, typically leaving a larger and more competitive federation in order to participate for a smaller or less competitive one.

Dorothy Hamill's biggest rival at the '76 Olympics, Diane Deleeuw had joint US-Dutch citizenship and represented Holland in the Olympics. A very good skater, she won the Silver medal for Holland.

 

[prettykeys]

Yes, but it does pay for health care and education, which is what I think prettykeys was referring to (correct me if I'm wrong). He continues to use these services but he doesn't represent Canada.

I wonder how he will get his Japanese citizenship if he trains and lives here. Because his parents are from two different countries he would have citizenship for those countries as well, wouldn't he? How many countries can you be a "citizen" of?

It is a lot of things. Not just healthcare and education (which I did allude to), but, well, representing a country that has done a lot for you...

As many as the various laws of the relevant countries allow. People who are dual nationality and more always get the same ole crap from the "nationalistic" folks

Ant

Then we might as well do away with the whole concept of the Olympics and the narrow-minded concept of representing "countries". Ohhh look at me, I'm such an uber-national, sitting here wanting my fellow countrymen and countrywomen do their best (and another who has a strong ethnic tie.) Am I the only one? Doubt it. I wonder what the relationship is??

Instead of having a world-wide competition based on nations, why not do ethnicities? Or clans by last name? What is the deal with nations that makes them special?

I believe (and you can disagree), that it has something to do with certain relationships in cultivating success and excellence; the acknowledgment that not only can an individual have something to show for their hard-work and determination and talent, but also that it is facilitated and made possible through opportunities and resources made available by their country. When you have an athlete medal, you're applauding both that person's abilities and that nation's support. This is why I offered the preposterous example of a U.S. lady figure skater representing another country that they have little association to (e.g. Singapore, Singapore has a lot of money to burn and not a strong figure skater to rep them) and training in Canada. It is, at the very least, "unusual". Yes, I will sympathize with athletes wanting to maximize their chances and opportunities and careers, but I can't say I approve or am completely happy with it.

Canada is very generous. Sometimes I think it is a little too generous, not just in these sorts of issues (Japan made a HUGE deal over Kawaguchi), but when it comes to straining its resources when it has no real obligation to. I feel this very same way about Canada-trained doctors who have the individual right to practice wherever they want, but many go down to the United $tates while we have our very own physician shortage. You can say they paid for their education (especially their post-secondary education) and that they succeeded on their own merits, but a lot of it was made possible by the support and resources of the Canadian population who will not see a return benefit.

I am not pointing fingers without a total lack of experience: given the choice I always repped Canada over Korea (my parents are Korean immigrants, so my ties are still quite close) and when I graduate I sure as heck will have lucrative opportunities down south. I think Canada has certain foolish policies sometimes and is a little too diplomatic, but I can't deny I love the life it's made possible for myself and my family. My friends and mentors are Canadian.

Listing more examples of other athletes making the same sort of country-swap choices doesn't make it more right, in my eyes (although it seems some at least had an ethnic basis for sitting on the fence and going the other way, which I am a little more sympathetic to.) But the Takahashi-Tran team is more Canadian than Japanese.

But HEY if you don't think it's a big deal, I agree, let's get rid of these stupid country-representing notions in all these world competitions. What an archaic notion nationalism is, feeling proud of your country, pfft!

 

[chuckm]

If I am wrong about this I hope someone will correct me..........

Belbin and Augosto are an interesting example. Tanith was a Canadian and Ben is from USA.

I believe that to meet a deadline to skate internationally Ben applied for Candian citizenship so B/A could represent Canada. At the same time Tanith applied for US citizenship which would enable B/A to skate for USA.

If I remember right, USA processed Tanith's application very quickly and B/A became an "American" team. If Ben had been processed first and given Canadian citizenship then B/A would have become a Canadian team.

I don't think B/A cared which country they would represent, it was just a matter of them having the same "nationality" to be eligible for international events.

You are completely wrong.

First of all, Ben's father is in the US military, and he was completely against Ben competing for any country but the US. So competing for Canada was never an option.

Secondly, it is MUCH easier to get Canadian citizenship than US citizenship. The residency period is much shorter and expedited citizenship for persons of "special ability" can be done in less than 3 years. Kaitlyn Weaver, who joined up with Andrew Poje in 2006, got Canadian citizenship this year.

One has to reside in the US for 5 years before applying for citizenship. Tanith applied as soon as she could, when she was 18, and her citizenship as a person of "special ability" should have come through well before 2006. But after 9/11/2001, all existing applications were put on hold. Meanwhile, persons of "special ability" who applied for citizenship after 2001 had already obtained their citizenship, while Tanith's application remained in limbo. It took special legislation to correct that inequity so that Tanith could compete in the 2006 Olympics.

 

[i love to skate]

I believe that to meet a deadline to skate internationally Ben applied for Candian citizenship so B/A could represent Canada. At the same time Tanith applied for US citizenship which would enable B/A to skate for USA.

If I remember right, USA processed Tanith's application very quickly and B/A became an "American" team. If Ben had been processed first and given Canadian citizenship then B/A would have become a Canadian team.

Hmmm. I thought Ben did not want to become a Canadian citizen and that's why Tanith became an American. Is that not right? I could just be imagining that though.

BTW, after Tanith became an American citizen and skated that patriotic program with an American Flag. WOW. Talk about overkill!

Canada is very generous. Sometimes I think it is a little too generous, not just in these sorts of issues (Japan made a HUGE deal over Kawaguchi), but when it comes to straining its resources when it has no real obligation to. I feel this very same way about Canada-trained doctors who have the individual right to practice wherever they want, but many go down to the United $tates while we have our very own physician shortage. You can say they paid for their education (especially their post-secondary education) and that they succeeded on their own merits, but a lot of it was made possible by the support and resources of the Canadian population who will not see a return benefit.

Well I think in sports it's a bit of a different ball game. I find it complimentary that a person would chose to train here. We have the largest figure skating federation in the world and the best coaches.

However, Canada has started to stand up for ourselves a little bit more with the Olympics coming up. The result? The Americans have started to cry foul at the fact that they can't get into the venues to pracice whenever they want. When in fact Canada is completely living up to their responsibilities as hosts of the Games. We have a different attitude going into these Games and I love it

As for the medical field or any academics for that matter, I really think it goes both ways. I have a step brother studying to be a doctor overseas and he plans to return to Canada to practice. I also have friends going to medical school in Australia and again they are going to come back here to practice. Hasn't there been some sort of measures implemented in some medical schools to make sure the doctors stay in Canada - or go to rural areas or something along those lines? Or is that false?

 

[Nadia01]

Just a random fact to toss at you now that we're talking switching nationalities, etc.

When Mirai made it big in the States, many in Japan made a big deal about the fact that Mirai can rep Japan since she is technically still a JP citizen. (dual) Also to this date, TV programs do NOT write out her name in katakana like they do with all foreigners. They always write out her name in kanji. (which I guess is fine since her name is Japanese, but it looks a lil odd to see an American flag next to 4 kanji characters...)

Of course despite my Japanese friends' protests, I saw no reason for Mirai to switch since ... does she REALLY want to compete with Mao, Miki, Akiko and Yukari for her chance to shine? Japan already has so many stars and its national darling (Mao).

 

[chuckm]

BTW, after Tanith became an American citizen and skated that patriotic program with an American Flag. WOW. Talk about overkill!

By the time Tanith got her US citizenship, she and her parents had been living in the US for 10 years. Tanith had lived all her teenage and young adult years in the US.

BTW, Kaitlin Weaver did a similar rah-rah thing when she got her Canadian citizenship, but had lived in Canada for only 3 years.

And I doubt very much that Tran is going to apply for Japanese citizenship, because he'd have to relinquish his Canadian citizenship to do so (Japan does not allow dual citizenship). Takahashi/Tran just can never compete at the Olympics.

Lots of foreign teams live and train in the US and there's no objection to their
presence here. But I guess you have strong objections to Adam Rippon, Yu-Na Kim and Christina Gao training in Canada under Brian Orser.

If you so object to Canadians doing their own thing, perhaps you should press for Canada to adopt "iron curtain" legislation to force Canadians to stay home.

 

[prettykeys]

As for the medical field or any academics for that matter, I really think it goes both ways. I have a step brother studying to be a doctor overseas and he plans to return to Canada to practice. I also have friends going to medical school in Australia and again they are going to come back here to practice. Hasn't there been some sort of measures implemented in some medical schools to make sure the doctors stay in Canada - or go to rural areas or something along those lines? Or is that false?

Yeah, I know a lot of buddies who went overseas to get their medical training done and want to come back home...because it's much harder to get into the limited spots in Canadian universities.

If one promises to practice in a rural area that is in desperate need for doctors for a number of years, one can get free tuition (or at least heavily subsidized) after they get accepted into Med school.

It is not a complete analogy, but I just wanted to underscore the importance of wanting to give some back to where one received, or at least paying some sort of respect. I don't believe in the notion that individuals are islands, that everything we do is and has been on our own selves. But whatever, it's not a huge deal to me, I don't know what every person has to go through and what sort of tough choices they've had to make.

Somewhat relatedly, I actually love the United States, as well. I love what it stands for: the founding principles; the passion, innovativeness, and large-scale thinking of Americans. It's not always the most refined culture, but it's incredibly rich, and there is probably no other country in the world I'd want as a superpower. I probably have huge generalized assumptions in my head (as an American sweetheart once warned me ) but that is how I see it. It only helps that it was the American military that helped save half of the Korean peninsula from being completely devoured by Communism. Nationalism doesn't mean you only like your own country and can't appreciate others. But I do believe in some form of heritage that derives from the "imagined community" of a nation. I'm about as individualistic as anyone can get, but I can appreciate the sorts of gifts my country has bestowed upon me, and repping another country would be sort of like calling a stranger "Mom" or "Dad".

 

[chloepoco]

I

Listing more examples of other athletes making the same sort of country-swap choices doesn't make it more right, in my eyes (although it seems some at least had an ethnic basis for sitting on the fence and going the other way, which I am a little more sympathetic to.) But the Takahashi-Tran team is more Canadian than Japanese.

But HEY if you don't think it's a big deal, I agree, let's get rid of these stupid country-representing notions in all these world competitions. What an archaic notion nationalism is, feeling proud of your country, pfft!

I don't know anything at all about this team; why do you say they are more Canadian than Japanese?