The Kween and the Queen

Tinymavy15 · Jun 7, 2010

brianjyw said:
It might be too stressful for skaters because some competitions are only a few weeks apart. The quality of skating under your proposal may become not good as we hope for due to time constraints.

What about each piece of music or theme per each season?

It is an interesting idea but I fear competitions would get boring... much like complusory dances or ODs. Also with no freedom with theme/ music choice, winners of Olympics etc could be decided much no luck of the draw, for example can you imagine the major fail for skaters lik Irina Slutskya or Miki Ando when soft balletic much was chosen? For originality, I think the best step that could be taken is for the number of permitted jmoing passes to be lowered to five but the length of the freeskate kept the same. this way more time would be used for chreography, moves in the field etc.

Mathman · Jun 7, 2010

Actually, I think we have a more objective way to evaluate Yu-na Kim's accomplishment than we have for skaters of previous eras. Kim's Olympic skates shattered the CoP record to pieces. If this score stands for fifty years before the next superstar comes along, that will be an effective measure of Kim's talent.

On the other hand, if scores in the 200s become commonplace, if the next girl in the pipeline hits 230 and the one after that gets 240, then at least we will have a yardstick of sorts to compare them.

miki88 · Jun 7, 2010

Mathman said:
Actually, I think we have a more objective way to evaluate Yu-na Kim's accomplishment than we have for skaters of previous eras. Kim's Olympic skates shattered the CoP record to pieces. If this score stands for fifty years before the next superstar comes along, that will be an effective measure of Kim's talent.

On the other hand, if scores in the 200s become commonplace, if the next girl in the pipeline hits 230 and the one after that gets 240, then at least we will have a yardstick of sorts to compare them.

I don't know how that is more objective since the CoP changes its rules like every year. With the new proposals, the scores won't be as high as before. So it's unlikely that anyone will exceed her scores at the Olympics, including herself.

OS · Jun 7, 2010

miki88 said:
I don't know how that is more objective since the CoP changes its rules like every year. With the new proposals, the scores won't be as high as before. So it's unlikely that anyone will exceed her scores at the Olympics, including herself.

In that case, may be using 2010 Rules and Regulation as benchmarks to appraise whatever the latest record break performance, judged by ex panel of ISU judges.

Or with Maths, you can approximate everything (based on average variable year by year etc). Just like how they measure how much box office receipts would Gone with the Wind would have made if released today based on population, distribution, inflation and reciepts. The figure wouldn't be exact, but it should give us an idea.

janetfan · Jun 7, 2010

os168 said:
In that case, may be using 2010 Rules and Regulation as benchmarks to appraise whatever the latest record break performance, judged by ex panel of ISU judges.

Or with Maths, you can approximate everything (based on average variable year by year etc). Just like how they measure how much box office receipts would Gone with the Wind would have made if released today based on population, distribution, inflation and reciepts. The figure wouldn't be exact, but it should give us an idea.

I am sure fans fascinated with point totals will do that. In the long run, I think how many Olympic and World medals a skater wins will be the measuring stick along with their influence on the sport.

Does it matter that Michelle received the most 6.0's in history? Or will she be remembered and judged more by her titles - and the actual skating itself - the quality of her programs and her body of work - which in the internet era is easy for fans to see.

If Yuna competes next season many of her fans will remain obsessed with her point totals. I think Yuna herself will probably care more about the quality of the programs, how she managed to perform them and how she does at Worlds.

I think from comments Yuna has made the obsession with her point totals has made competiting unpleasant for her at times.

Mathman · Jun 7, 2010

miki88 said:
With the new proposals, the scores won't be as high as before.

They won't? Base values for 3T, 3Lo and 3A are going up slightly, there is the new bonus for combinations, the penalties for downgrades will be less severe, and some skaters may be able to take advantage of the new triple jump-half loop- triple flip or Salchow combination.

But yeah, good point, it will still be hard to compare new rules to old. Although os168's ideas will give us plenty to do with the new numbers.

cosmos · Jun 7, 2010

YuNa blended athleticism and artistry into one and proved FS can be exciting to watch in a different way. That is her contribution to FS, I think.

YuNa's artistry is different from MK's. Some people prefer YuNa's and others prefer MK's. If YuNa's artistry is just like MK's, how boring would FS be?

Mathman · Jun 7, 2010

Concerning the question of who was better, Sonia Henie or Yu-na Kim, we are about to find out once and for all! Even as we speak they are going at it mano-a-mano in the quarterfinals of the Greatest Skater of All Time contest. :rock:

To get there, Kim had to beat Peggy Fleming (I think it was Kim's triple Lutz-triple toe that did it), and Henie beat America's Sweetheart Dorothy Hamill.

By the way, Mao Asada was knocked out by Carol Heiss.

Michelle's round of sixteen match is still going on. David Jenkins is proving to be unexpectedly tough to put away.

kyla2 · Jun 7, 2010

Janetfan, thanks for the link. Yes, Janet Lynn did have an impact on Michelle. Her "straight up and down" jumps were very much like Lynn's. Her joy in her skating was something else Michelle shared with Janet.

Some of our Korean posters say they like the less emotive style of skating of Yu Na as compared to Michelle. They use the relative differences of artists to make their case. In other words, it is a personal taste issue. I disagree totally. I can most certainly appreciate Asian art and do. When I see a masterpiece from any culture (Asian, American Indian, Islamic) I can appreciate it. I am not comparing masterworks here because I do not believe Yu Na has skated anything comparable to Lyra Angelica, Rachmaninoff etc. Chen Lu's exqusite performance was Asian all the way and I was transfixed. If Michelle hadn't thrown the extra jump in, I believe Chen Lu might have won. When something is a beautiful work of art, it is evident for all to see, regardless of one's cultural background-like the Taj Mahal. So I only allow so much for cultural perspective with Yu Na. Masterworks/masterpieces are universally appreciated. Michelle had several.

As for Sasha being Michelle's equal in artistry, I don't agree at all. Sasha was brilliant and I loved to watch her, but there was higher emotional connection to the music and audience she never hit. It requires a letting go that Sasha was never quite able to do but she was insecure about her technique/jumps/edges. You could always see her thinking through the process. I think it is safe to say that a skate must have excellent techinque to reach that higher plane.

brianjyw · Jun 7, 2010

miki88 said:
I also think it is hard and unnecessary to compare skaters across generations because of different rules, equipments, and other factors. The only real way to evaluate past skaters is by their legacy and the influence they have on the skating world. Sonja Henie is influential because she is a pioneer who paved the way for later generations.

Well, when someone says a performance is mesmerizing, elegant or beautiful, touches one's heart and has a great connection with audience, the person is actually comparing the performance with past performances by others. How can someone feel someone's performance great if there are no other past performances of others to compare with? We are mesmerized by a performance because there are some elements we see in the performance that we have never seen before or quality of some elements we have never witnessed from others before. You may call them jumps, signature moves, athletism, artistry, presence on the ice, charisma, musicality, flexibility, balletic or others.

Comparing skaters across generations is as natural, or even necessary as falling is love in human life IMO. I can even go as far as saying comparing is even good for the sport because it tends to promote improvement.

As for legacy and influence, they are rather much more subjective and regional IMO so I wouldn't use them to determine whose skating is better. Actually, they are rather deterrents to evaluating skaters objectively IMO.

miki88 · Jun 7, 2010

brianjyw said:
Well, when someone says a performance is mesmerizing, elegant or beautiful, touches one's heart and has a great connection with audience, the person is actually comparing the performance with past performances by others. How can someone feel someone's performance great if there are no other past performances of others to compare with? We are mesmerized by a performance because there are some elements we see in the performance that we have never seen before or quality of some elements we have never witnessed from others before. You may call them jumps, signature moves, athletism, artistry, presence on the ice, charisma, musicality, flexibility, balletic or others.

Comparing skaters across generations is as natural, or even necessary as falling is love in human life IMO. I can even go as far as saying comparing is even good for the sport because it tends to promote improvement.

As for legacy and influence, they are rather much more subjective and regional IMO so I wouldn't use them to determine whose skating is better. Actually, they are rather deterrents to evaluating skaters objectively IMO.

Not necessarily. You can feel it's great because you like it and it may have nothing to do with skating per se.

I don't know what you're getting at with that, because I wasn't trying to determine whose skating is better. IMAO. I mean before you talk about past performances, have you actually watched them? It really doesn't seem so to me that you have.

cosmos · Jun 8, 2010

kyla2 said:
Janetfan, thanks for the link. Yes, Janet Lynn did have an impact on Michelle. Her "straight up and down" jumps were very much like Lynn's. Her joy in her skating was something else Michelle shared with Janet.

Some of our Korean posters say they like the less emotive style of skating of Yu Na as compared to Michelle. They use the relative differences of artists to make their case. In other words, it is a personal taste issue. I disagree totally. I can most certainly appreciate Asian art and do. When I see a masterpiece from any culture (Asian, American Indian, Islamic) I can appreciate it. I am not comparing masterworks here because I do not believe Yu Na has skated anything comparable to Lyra Angelica, Rachmaninoff etc. Chen Lu's exqusite performance was Asian all the way and I was transfixed. If Michelle hadn't thrown the extra jump in, I believe Chen Lu might have won. When something is a beautiful work of art, it is evident for all to see, regardless of one's cultural background-like the Taj Mahal. So I only allow so much for cultural perspective with Yu Na. Masterworks/masterpieces are universally appreciated. Michelle had several.

As for Sasha being Michelle's equal in artistry, I don't agree at all. Sasha was brilliant and I loved to watch her, but there was higher emotional connection to the music and audience she never hit. It requires a letting go that Sasha was never quite able to do but she was insecure about her technique/jumps/edges. You could always see her thinking through the process. I think it is safe to say that a skate must have excellent techinque to reach that higher plane.

You forget the obvious fact that I (and many others) do not appreciate MK's work as much as you do. For me, YuNa's works are greater masterpieces and I am not alone in that. You can claim MK is better, but there is no way you can prove it.

Tonichelle · Jun 8, 2010

cosmos said:
You forget the obvious fact that I (and many others) do not appreciate MK's work as much as you do. For me, YuNa's works are greater masterpieces and I am not alone in that. You can claim MK is better, but there is no way you can prove it.

or vice versa...

for me? give me Kristi Yamaguchi, Yuka Sato, Josee Chouinard or Katia Gordeeva any day.

aftertherain · Jun 8, 2010

cosmos said:
You forget the obvious fact that I (and many others) do not appreciate MK's work as much as you do. For me, YuNa's works are greater masterpieces and I am not alone in that. You can claim MK is better, but there is no way you can prove it.

Well, duh. I thought this was an opinion thread, not a fact-based "She's better than BlahBlahBlah" thread. >____>

So technically, you can't prove Michelle's better than whoever, Yuna's better than whoever, Surya's better than whoever, etc because it's an opinion. Am I right?

cosmos · Jun 8, 2010

aftertherain said:
Well, duh. I thought this was an opinion thread, not a fact-based "She's better than BlahBlahBlah" thread. >____>

So technically, you can't prove Michelle's better than whoever, Yuna's better than whoever, Surya's better than whoever, etc because it's an opinion. Am I right?

Right. It is not me but kyla2 that thinks he/she can prove it.

YunaBliss · Jun 8, 2010

kyla2 said:
Janetfan, thanks for the link. Yes, Janet Lynn did have an impact on Michelle. Her "straight up and down" jumps were very much like Lynn's. Her joy in her skating was something else Michelle shared with Janet.

Some of our Korean posters say they like the less emotive style of skating of Yu Na as compared to Michelle. They use the relative differences of artists to make their case. In other words, it is a personal taste issue. I disagree totally. I can most certainly appreciate Asian art and do. When I see a masterpiece from any culture (Asian, American Indian, Islamic) I can appreciate it. I am not comparing masterworks here because I do not believe Yu Na has skated anything comparable to Lyra Angelica, Rachmaninoff etc. Chen Lu's exqusite performance was Asian all the way and I was transfixed. If Michelle hadn't thrown the extra jump in, I believe Chen Lu might have won. When something is a beautiful work of art, it is evident for all to see, regardless of one's cultural background-like the Taj Mahal. So I only allow so much for cultural perspective with Yu Na. Masterworks/masterpieces are universally appreciated. Michelle had several.

I disagree. I just watched Michelle's Lyra Angelica program for the first time with an absolutely open mind, ready to be persuaded, and I was not awed by it at all. So that must mean, according to your theory, that Lyra Angelica is NOT a masterpiece, since you are saying masterpiece is universally appreciated regardless of cultural background.

Anyway, you think Michelle > Yuna. I think Yuna > Michelle. I am fine to leave it as a matter of personal preference.

However, don't insist that what you personally prefer is a "universal masterpiece", while something I prefer is "uniquely Korean." If you want to continue to say that this is NOT a matter of personal taste, well then.... get ready and strap your seatbelts, because it's going to get ugly ^^;

Tonichelle · Jun 8, 2010

YunaBliss said:
...If you want to continue to disagree that this is NOT a matter of personal taste, well then.... get ready and strap your seatbelts, because it's going to get ugly ^^;

The debate should stay within the guidelines. So it better NOT get "ugly".

aftertherain · Jun 8, 2010

cosmos said:
Right. It is not me but kyla2 that thinks he/she can prove it.

Well, I meant "in general", but okay. Hahaha.

YunaBliss said:
I disagree. I just watched Michelle's Lyra Angelica program for the first time with an absolutely open mind, ready to be persuaded, and I was not awed by it at all. So that must mean, according to your theory, that Lyra Angelica is NOT a masterpiece, since you are saying masterpiece is universally appreciated regardless of cultural background.

Anyway, you think Michelle > Yuna. I think Yuna > Michelle. I am fine to leave it as a matter of personal preference.

However, don't insist that what you personally prefer is a "universal masterpiece", while something I prefer is "uniquely Korean." If you want to continue to disagree that this is NOT a matter of personal taste, well then.... get ready and strap your seatbelts, because it's going to get ugly ^^;

I think ... this is the first time I've ever agreed with you. I never voiced my disagreements, but they were there. ^^

And I think it's quite sad that you weren't awed by the program at all. But oh well. Like you said, it's a matter of preference and opinion.

Tonichelle said:
The debate should stay within the guidelines. So it better NOT get "ugly".

brownfox · Jun 8, 2010

YunaBliss said:
I disagree. I just watched Michelle's Lyra Angelica program for the first time with an absolutely open mind, ready to be persuaded, and I was not awed by it at all. So that must mean, according to your theory, that Lyra Angelica is NOT a masterpiece, since you are saying masterpiece is universally appreciated regardless of cultural background.

Anyway, you think Michelle > Yuna. I think Yuna > Michelle. I am fine to leave it as a matter of personal preference.

However, don't insist that what you personally prefer is a "universal masterpiece", while something I prefer is "uniquely Korean." If you want to continue to say that this is NOT a matter of personal taste, well then.... get ready and strap your seatbelts, because it's going to get ugly ^^;

I'm a Yuna fan too and Michelle is one of my all time favorites but dude...:disapp:

brianjyw · Jun 8, 2010

brownfox said:
I'm a Yuna fan too and Michelle is one of my all time favorites but dude...:disapp:

^^; this tells me it was just a joke. :biggrin:

The Kween and the Queen

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Mathman

miki88

OS

Sedated by Modonium

janetfan

Match Penalty

Mathman

cosmos

Mathman

kyla2

brianjyw

miki88

cosmos

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

aftertherain

cosmos

YunaBliss

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

aftertherain

brownfox

brianjyw

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