Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

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If each received the PCS that they truly deserved (a big thing to ask for in this sport, I admit), then yes, there's not a doubt in my mind that Kwan in her prime would beat a clean Kim, even under CoP. As for 6.0, that's even easier.

^^ and I rest my case regarding where you live in RealityLand.

In what universe is Yuna Kim a stronger jumper than Irina Slutskaya? Yuna Kim is a wonderful skater whom I love to watch skate but Irina is one of the GREATEST ladies on ice - what she lacked in artisty, she more than made up for in technical content. Saying differently just makes you look foolish. And you don't want to talk greatest, you want to talk uber. The language is sorta the same, but the context is quite different. Silly rabbit.

And La Kwan not amongst the best, if not THE best? Dude. Stop it. Don't make me get ugly up in here... I have kids.

pangtongfan said:

If I wanted to talk about greatest ever I would talk about Witt, Yamaguchi, or Henjie. Kwan isnt really relevant to that topic.

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Wow, just wow. There are no words.

Kwanford Wife said:

^^ and I rest my case regarding where you live in RealityLand.

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LOL this coming from you. I cant tell you how hard I laughed at that one.

In what universe is Yuna Kim a stronger jumper than Irina Slutskaya?

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ROTFL on the universe called earth which apparently you dont live on but I discovered that about you a long time ago. Yu Na has landed many more clean triple-triples than Irina. Yu Na has landed many more of the more difficult triple-triples than Irina. Yu Na has just as much power on her jumps as Irina. Yu Na has cleaner positions, and much better flow out of her jumps than Irina. And contrary to the myth you are trying to create Irina hardly ever skated clean long programs either, particularly considering the lenght of her career. Just compare the GOE they each got on their jumps under COP even when Irina was doing her best skating ever in late 2004/all of 2005 and stop embarassing yourself already.

Yuna Kim is a wonderful skater whom I love to watch skate but Irina is one of the GREATEST ladies on ice - what she lacked in artisty, she more than made up for in technical content.

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Technical content such as completing no counted triple-triples in either of her World title wins.

And La Kwan not amongst the best, if not THE best? Dude. Stop it. Don't make me get ugly up in here... I have kids.

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She isnt the greatest ever, let alone the undisputed greatest as you seem to think. No Olympic Gold, and certainly not the most dominant skater ever either. Witt lost only 1 competition in 5 years and with 2 Olympics and 4 Worlds her record easily eclipses Kwan's even in a shorter time span. Yamaguchi was by far the best skater in the World from 1991-1995 and could still have been competitive with the best in the World up until 1998 even. She defended a World title on her first try which Kwan did only once in a long career, and of course won an Olympic Gold at a young age and went on to a dominant pro career which her performances were matching or eclipsing the best amateurs for years. Henjie's record of course is unmatched and she was the first major star in womens skating. Ito is the greatest technical skater ever, Janet Lynn the greatest artistic skater ever. Kim and Asada over the last quad have both been taking womens skating to new heights in combined technical excellent/presentation. Fleming did as much or more to change the face of ladies skating including in the U.S than Kwan. Hamill skated way back in the 70s and still did better spins, stroking, edges, and double axels to what Kwan managed in her prime. So Kwan is the greatest ever because of what, since she is your favorite.

pangtongfan said:

If I wanted to talk about greatest ever I would talk about Witt, Yamaguchi, or Henjie. Kwan isnt really relevant to that topic.

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And then the truth of as to why you created this thread finally surfaces. Haters gon' hate.

This isn't even about Kwan in the first place is it? You just want to hear about how Yuna is the best/greatest/flawless/no one in the history of figure skating past, present, or future can beat her/etc, etc. Sheesh. There IS a Yuna thread, you know.

Kwanford Wife said:

Again, you miss the point. You cannot offer up a hypothetical situation and then say its improbable.

And for the last time - this whole thread is coulda woulda shoulda. This is not Hogwarts. These competitions never happened. You cannot put forth an arguementon something that's never gonna happen and then get upset when confronted with a different opinion. Sometimes the only thing I believe you want to read is that Yuna Kim is the greatest of all time, unbeatable and the greatest of not only her generation, but of every other one. And you will be disappointed because its never. gonna. happen. There is only one Kwan.

So just enjoy different opinions - you'll live longer.

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Thank you. :sheesh:

So someone who doesnt concede Kwan is the greatest ever must be a hater now. As absurd as that is, I shouldnt be surprised. This after all is the same place many think Flatt and Suguri both have brilliant futures in amateur skating.

pangtongfan said:

So someone who doesnt concede Kwan is the greatest ever must be a hater now. As absurd as that is, I shouldnt be surprised. This after all is the same place many think Flatt and Suguri both have brilliant futures in amateur skating.

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No, someone who uses Yuna vs. Michelle as an excuse to put down all kinds of skaters is a hater.

Lots of skating fans have put down Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, and Cohen, countless times in the past. I never even put any of those down, I simply said they arent as good as Kim or real threats to a great like Kwan of any sort (well other than Irina with the aid of the politiking Russian federation behind her without which she would have been much less a threat to Michelle, and btw this is the first place I have ever heard her inflated scores and abilities even disputed). In fact Kwan is the ONLY skater of that whole long period that most fans seems to like which is telling in itself to what kind of era that was. Not that Kwan should be faulted for that, you can only compete against who you are given.

pangtongfan said:

LOL this coming from you. I cant tell you how hard I laughed at that one.



ROTFL on the universe called earth which apparently you dont live on but I discovered that about you a long time ago. Yu Na has landed many more clean triple-triples than Irina. Yu Na has landed many more of the more difficult triple-triples than Irina. Yu Na has just as much power on her jumps as Irina. Yu Na has cleaner positions, and much better flow out of her jumps than Irina. And contrary to the myth you are trying to create Irina hardly ever skated clean long programs either, particularly considering the lenght of her career. Just compare the GOE they each got on their jumps under COP even when Irina was doing her best skating ever in late 2004/all of 2005 and stop embarassing yourself already.



Technical content such as completing no counted triple-triples in either of her World title wins.




She isnt the greatest ever, let alone the undisputed greatest as you seem to think. No Olympic Gold, and certainly not the most dominant skater ever either. Witt lost only 1 competition in 5 years and with 2 Olympics and 4 Worlds her record easily eclipses Kwan's even in a shorter time span. Yamaguchi was by far the best skater in the World from 1991-1995 and could still have been competitive with the best in the World up until 1998 even. She defended a World title on her first try which Kwan did only once in a long career, and of course won an Olympic Gold at a young age and went on to a dominant pro career which her performances were matching or eclipsing the best amateurs for years. Henjie's record of course is unmatched and she was the first major star in womens skating. Ito is the greatest technical skater ever, Janet Lynn the greatest artistic skater ever. So Kwan is the greatest ever because of what, since she is your favorite.

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Stop it. Do you even read your posts? Irina was performing 3 x 3 x 3 / 2 combos. She also had a complete set of triples. She also had the Beilman. She also had a record number of European titles. Kwan's record speaks for itself. And actually, the fact that Michelle is my favorite, does make her the best. Sorry, but I win. *****.

pangtongfan said:

In retrospect [Sasha is) easily one of the most overhyped skaters in history.

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I don't think she was overhyped. What her fans oohed and aahed about about was the beauty of her performances. As for winning competitions, she she fell too much.

She is one of the great skaters of modern times in the sense that she continues to get more hits on You Tube than many a former world champion.

Kwanford Wife said:

Stop it. Do you even read your posts? Irina was performing 3 x 3 x 3 / 2 combos. She also had a complete set of triples. She also had the Beilman. She also had a record number of European titles. Kwan's record speaks for itself. And actually, the fact that Michelle is my favorite, does make her the best. Sorry, but I win. Moron.

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These are the clean 3-3 combinations Irina has done in her career in international competition:

1997 Worlds- triple salchow/triple loop
1998 Olympics- triple toe/triple toe
2000 Grand Prix final- triple lutz/triple loop (shaky), triple salchow/triple loop
2001 Worlds- triple salchow/triple loop/double toe (cheated)
2001 Goodwill Games- triple salchow/triple loop
2004 Cup of Russia- triple salchow/triple loop
2005 Worlds- triple lutz/triple loop
2005 Cup of Russia- triple salchow/triple loop/double toe

And that is supposed to be impressive compared to Yu Na. Yu Na has landed many more clean triple-triples in half the # of years, more difficult ones (except the only 2 triple lutz-triple loops), and better executed than Irina.

So Irina's ugly Biellmann spin which wasnt even done well at all is a big technical strength now too. That is probably Irina's biggest legacy, is making ugly Biellmanns repeated under COP even with few skaters with flexability to skill to them proficiently a must.

As for the European titles, if Yu Na Kim only had to beat Butyrskaya, Liashenko, and Sokolova to win Europeans Kim would have won Europeans every single year. And Slutskaya's European titles in 2003 and 2005 were highly controversial, especialy 2005. You seem oblivious to the fact she was considered a held up and overmarked skater by most skating fans and many experts on skating (eg- Dick Button and Peggy Fleming).

I am a Michelle Kwan fan and a Yu-Na fan. In a way I think it's quite fitting that these two skaters--one of whom influenced the other in skating philosophy and in emphasizing artistry--never met in competition. They both missed the 2006 Olympics for different reasons--Michelle because of her re-injury and Yu-Na because of the age restriction.

Though the Yu-Na fan in me cringes when folks say Yu-na is nothing but 3/3s (...really?) and the Michelle fan in me cringes when people criticise Michelle's technical content (given that she grew up under 6.0 where she didn't have to do CoP level elements), I do find parts of this discussion fascinating as well as frustrating.

Kwanford Wife said:

I would even go as far to say that in terms of consistency and skaing clean - Yuna is closer to Sasha than she is to Kwan...

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Okay, I find this really perplexing given the huge disparity in results between the two (and if medals don't matter what separates Sasha from Michelle?). Yu-Na was far more consistent than Sasha and far cleaner when it mattered most.

For the past 10 years, every ladies worlds champion but two have not been able to medal the year after they won worlds. The two exceptions? Michelle Kwan and Yu-Na Kim. Every other either failed to podium or for unrelated reasons were unable to defend their title (Irina, for health reasons in 03 and for not deciding to compete in 06). Yu-Na has definitely had less overall success at Worlds than Michelle, but medaling all four years at Worlds inlcuding 1 title is more than impressive considering she's the only one to have done that in that timeframe. So there's one proof of consistency that makes Yu-Na more similar to Michelle than Sasha (who only had 3 world medals, no world title, no OGM, etc).

Then there's that little matter of the importance of the OGM. Does one need an OGM to be great? Not in my opinion, and I fully agree that Michelle is great. But it confuses me when people appear to discount an OGM completely, presumably because Michelle did not win it. The train of thinking apparently went from, "It doesn't matter that Michelle didn't win the OGM" to "It doesn't matter when anyone wins an OGM."

Kwanford Wife said:

IMO, I believe Yuna and Sasha have more in common than say Yuna & Kwan or Yuna & Irina. Totally different eras, totally different set of rules. And with all due respect to Yuna, she simply doesn't have the resume of these two - their greatness is based on longevity, impact and legendary status.

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Is Michelle a legend in Russia and is Irina a legend in the USA? I think legendary status may be in the eye of the home country. Michelle is an American icon but I'm sure Russia, while respecting Michelle, thinks of Irina as legendary. And vice versa. Yu-Na is most definitely a legend in Korea already.

As for longevity, no one can match the longevity of Michelle or Irina simply because the rules lock skaters out now at an earlier age when those two were competing on the senior level already. It's quite exceptional and wonderful that they skated as long as they did but I don't think that gives the two (both of whom i greatly respect) a monopoly on greatness. Yu-na accomplished a great deal internationally in her 2 years as a junior, it's a pity that many never got to see it.

Actually, 8 years after Sarah Hughes' win in SLC, the New York Times was still lavishing praise on her for her Olympic performances. Sometimes you don't need years to be remembered, you just need 8 minutes. I believe Yu-na will remembered by more than just the people in her country, given the astounding amount of end of 2010 mentions her Olympic performances received by press outside of Korea.

Back to the original question-- yeah, they probably could be competitive with one another, but let's face it, it's great they never competed against one another. Yu Na, growing up, was inspired by Michelle. Like Lulu was by Peggy, Kristi by Dorothy, Oksana by Jill...

There would probably have been some pretty close contests between these two, but having them skate in different eras means we get TWO legends, not just one. So who wins? Skating does. We, the fans, win.

blue dog said:

Back to the original question-- yeah, they probably could be competitive with one another, but let's face it, it's great they never competed against one another. Yu Na, growing up, was inspired by Michelle. Like Lulu was by Peggy, Kristi by Dorothy, Oksana by Jill...

There would probably have been some pretty close contests between these two, but having them skate in different eras means we get TWO legends, not just one. So who wins? Skating does. We, the fans, win.

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OMG... remember the days when the fans won... such good times...

Kwanford Wife said:

OMG... remember the days when the fans won... such good times...

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Yes. I try to watch the 1998 Olympics ladies' final every time I feel like I need a pick-me-up. And if I really need a pickup, I throw in 2003 world pairs.

LOL

I didn't even have the chance to read the whole thread, but I found it so funny when I read someone even hinting that Irina is a better jumper than Yuna. Granted, it matters how one defines "better" but in terms of technique, consistency, and overall aesthetics of jumping, I didn't think it would be possible for someone to argue that Irina is better than Yuna. Fine, she might have had more height but to be honest, that's all I can say with regards to the superiority of Irina's jumping over Yuna's.

I'm not too sure about comparing Sasha and Yuna either... totally different? Maybe that's just me?

I love Kwan and she's the one who's introduced me to the sport, but you have to be kidding yourself if you think Kwan could beat Yuna under the new system at least. No way. I absolutely love Michelle's skating but sorry to be realistic.

I don't think we ever had uber fans like Yuna's. They will repeat the same thing over and over and over until they brain wash you. They won't stop until they hear she is the best skater ever from everyone.

ks777 said:

I don't think we ever had uber fans like Yuna's. They will repeat the same thing over and over and over until they brain wash you. They won't stop until they hear she is the best skater ever from everyone.

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Actually that sounds like Kwan fans far more than anyone else.

I love it when realism is equated to being a brainwashing uber fan. It seems that this is the default response to realistic posts when the replier has nothing concrete or specific to argue to prove his or her own point adequately. Or maybe people are just used to projecting their own image onto others? Whatever, please don't label me ever again. I'm more of a Kwan fan than Kim's, not that I need to justify any of my words. Trust me, whenever I do post, I try to be objective. I have my favorites, but my opinions on this forum I assure you, are not tainted or biased in any way. *shrugs* It seems that my realism and honesty is ticking people off, and I'm not sure exactly why...?

herro said:

LOL

I didn't even have the chance to read the whole thread, but I found it so funny when I read someone even hinting that Irina is a better jumper than Yuna. Granted, it matters how one defines "better" but in terms of technique, consistency, and overall aesthetics of jumping, I didn't think it would be possible for someone to argue that Irina is better than Yuna. Fine, she might have had more height but to be honest, that's all I can say with regards to the superiority of Irina's jumping over Yuna's.

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Exactly. Thank you.

Irina wasnt even the best pure jumper of her own time. Volchkova and Sebeysten were far more talented jumpers but unfortunately were too inconsistent and the rest of their skating was mediocre and blah.