Misha Ge out with Injury from 4CC

Mrs. P · Jan 27, 2016

Tavi... said:
The thing is, if quads are the only way to define progress, at some point, progress will grind to a halt, and then what? The human body has inherent physical limitations. If you've reached them are you no longer engaged in a sport? Do you take PEDs?

This is a huge concern I have. Unfortunately, this issue seems to becoming rampant in sports like Track and Field and Cycling, where pressures to break world records and paces is strong. i'm hoping figure skating won't head in the same direction, cuase then you'll have all the mess--investigations, having to take back medals....etc. etc.

That said, progress doesn't have to be having the most jumps. There is still validity a good competition or good competitors. Was Yuzuru's performances at NHK and GPF amazing because he had the most quads? No. It was because he turned in four really clean skates and show his competitive mettle. The quads, of course, helped him do that...but it was the fact he did that and the other stuff.

I've seen track races where no records were broken but yet were still memorable because of the competition itself -- i.e. two track athletes going neck-to-neck before one pushes for the lead at the end.

Heck, Daisuke Takahashi's win back in 2010 Worlds is still pretty memorable for me even to this day, and he UR a 4F.

padme21 · Jan 27, 2016

I'm so sick of people making quads out to be the worst thing to happen to figure skating they've been around for over 20 years. Figure skating like most sports carry an amount of risk. As a poster pointed out earlier skaters have been injured training on easier jumps. Some of the worst injuries I've see have come from pairs and ice dance. Alex Shibutani tweaked his back a few seasons ago and struggled with the lift elements. Figure skating is a sport and like any sport it progresses forward. Multiple quads in the program is just part of that progression forward like or not. You shouldn't limit something just because not everyone can do it. If anyone did the same thing in a program it would be pretty boring.

Mrs. P · Jan 27, 2016

padme21 said:
I'm so sick of people making quads out to be the worst thing to happen to figure skating they've been around for over 20 years. Figure skating like most sports carry an amount of risk. As a poster pointed out earlier skaters have been injured training on easier jumps. Some of the worst injuries I've see have come from pairs and ice dance. Alex Shibutani tweaked his back a few seasons ago and struggled with the lift elements. Figure skating is a sport and like any sport it progresses forward. Multiple quads in the program is just part of that progression forward like or not. You shouldn't limit something just because not everyone can do it. If anyone did the same thing in a program it would be pretty boring.

I didn't say quads are the worst thing to happen to figure skating. However, I think it is valid for TPTB, coaches and athletes to have a dialogue regarding how to train smart and to be safe. These athletes will have a life post-skating too, I'd hate for too much strain on their body to cause long-standing issues.

Also, I don't think anyone is discounting injuries in other disciplines. Ice Dance is a heck lot more physical now, especially with those crazy lifts so, yeah, it makes sense that more injuries are happening there.

And while quads have been around for 20 years, the skaters who were doing quads even just a decade ago or at the start of COP didn't do the spins, steps and other tough content on top of it.

I'm not pro or anti quad. I'm pro-sustainability for our athletes who sacrifice a lot of time and money to succeed.

el henry · Jan 27, 2016

Mrs. P said:
....
That said, progress doesn't have to be having the most jumps. There is still validity a good competition or good competitors. Was Yuzuru's performances at NHK and GPF amazing because he had the most quads? No. It was because he turned in four really clean skates and show his competitive mettle. The quads, of course, helped him do that...but it was the fact he did that and the other stuff.

I've seen track races where no records were broken but yet were still memorable because of the competition itself -- i.e. two track athletes going neck-to-neck before one pushes for the lead at the end.

....

Sort of OT, because I also follow Track and Field.

My main man Meb! Wins races he shouldn't, against athletes with much better PRs. Is that fair? Those athletes run faster, post better times, but Meb ....he out-strategizes them all.

When the sport is XTreme Power Ice Jumping, it loses its appeal. I can break my ankle in our 32 inches of snow; that has diddly squat to do with the risks of training a quad.

StitchMonkey · Jan 27, 2016

I am starting to question how sustainable the sport is with the current emphasis on quads. There are just not that many guys that should be doing multi quad programs - by should, i mean able to somewhat consistently without being a #teaminfirmary frequent flyer. Having only a handful of guys even capable of winning is not fun, and is not sustainable. Having as many injuries as we have had this season of potentially top names is not sustainable either. Human bodies have limits. I think we may be reaching that point with quads. And is that such a bad thing? Isn't that part of the point of the sport?

And not doing quads is not really an option for skater until the fans change. Look at the vitriol pointed at the likes of Jason Brown and Adam Rippon - look at the questions in press conferences. Skaters are basically being bullied into attempting quads. It is clearly not seen as acceptable for "top" men to not attempt quads. Many people have said as much... many think a quad should even be required in the short. I have seen countless people say Jason should "just try it" and "how does he know till he tries" with regard to the quad with no apparent concern for if he actually can land it.... "why not just try" is a common sentiment. To use the same word again... a career is not sustainable when everyone is telling you that what you are doing is wrong and you have to do something else.

To be clear I don't think the quad is evil, nor do i want to ban it. I do however think we ALWAYS should ask if we are pressuring skaters to do things that are unsafe. Frankly I just wish the money existed to research the frack out of this issue!

Tavi... · Jan 27, 2016

Mrs. P said:
This is a huge concern I have. Unfortunately, this issue seems to becoming rampant in sports like Track and Field and Cycling, where pressures to break world records and paces is strong. i'm hoping figure skating won't head in the same direction, cuase then you'll have all the mess--investigations, having to take back medals....etc. etc.

That said, progress doesn't have to be having the most jumps. There is still validity a good competition or good competitors. Was Yuzuru's performances at NHK and GPF amazing because he had the most quads? No. It was because he turned in four really clean skates and show his competitive mettle. The quads, of course, helped him do that...but it was the fact he did that and the other stuff.

I've seen track races where no records were broken but yet were still memorable because of the competition itself -- i.e. two track athletes going neck-to-neck before one pushes for the lead at the end.

Heck, Daisuke Takahashi's win back in 2010 Worlds is still pretty memorable for me even to this day, and he UR a 4F.

I totally agree with you, Mrs. P. I was actually thinking about baseball when I wrote it - remember Barry Bonds, and the epic battle between Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire?

And yes, I agree with you that competition can be phenomenally exciting even if no records are broken.

With respect to Yuzu, what was amazing to me was actually not the quads per se, because they were incorporated so seamlessly and beautifully into the program that they didn't stand out as difficult elements. It was the way he wove everything together, and his absolute, unwavering concentration that was most striking to me - seeing that is rare and mesmerizing.

Mrs. P · Jan 27, 2016

el henry said:
Sort of OT, because I also follow Track and Field.

My main man Meb! Wins races he shouldn't, against athletes with much better PRs. Is that fair? Those athletes run faster, post better times, but Meb ....he out-strategizes them all.

When the sport is XTreme Power Ice Jumping, it loses its appeal. I can break my ankle in our 32 inches of snow; that has diddly squat to do with the risks of training a quad.

Meb! Now he has an incredible story. Talk about a guy who proves people wrong time and time again. Everyone totally wrote him off a few years ago. Then he surprised everyone by being top USA finisher at the 2012 Olympics (beating then wiz-kid marathoner Ryan Hall) and winning the Boston Marathon in 2014. He was told time and time again that he needed to retire and let the young folks take over.

The Boston Marathon win was fascinating, cause he broke all the rules -- he decided to break from the pack early, which is typically a no-no in marathoning...but he did and managed to keep the lead to win.

ETA: Also I hope that we don't get to the PED issue in skating because when I read track and field boards, half the threads are about whether certain athletes or training groups are doping.

padme21 · Jan 27, 2016

I pray for a swift recovery for Misha and Nathan.
Also the argument that quads are some how ruining the artistic side of figure skating is in valid when you have complete balanced skaters like Hanyu, Fernandez, Uno, Chan who can do multiple quads and not sacrifice the artistry of figure skating. Why should other's be held back and limited for the sake of skaters s who can not do any quads. Not everyone can do everything. Figure skating would be quite boring everyone did the exact same thing. That's what sets skaters a part is what they can or can't do. Some skaters are more flexible than others, some are better jumpers, some are more "artistic" than others,ect.

Mrs. P · Jan 27, 2016

padme21 said:
I pray for a swift recovery for Misha and Nathan.
Also the argument that quads are some how ruining the artistic side of figure skating is in valid when you have complete balanced skaters like Hanyu, Fernandez, Uno, Chan who can do multiple quads and not sacrifice the artistry of figure skating. Why should other's be held back and limited for the sake of skaters s who can not do any quads. Not everyone can do everything. Figure skating would be quite boring everyone did the exact same thing. That's what sets skaters a part is what they can or can't do. Some skaters are more flexible than others, some are better jumpers, some are more "artistic" than others,ect.

The question for me is if the level of competition is SUSTAINABLE, both for the skater and for general competition. That's why the men's competition is annoyingly unpredictable -- because you will either have great competitions like GPF, but you'll also have complete meltdowns like Sochi where it came down to the guy who made the least mistakes.

And while the skaters you mention now are doing well now -- what effect will doing such physically-demanding programs have in future seasons and after they finish their careers. Just because skaters CAN do the program doesn't me there isn't any strain to their bodies. That's the discussion to me is sorely lacking. Again, it seems more about who can do it and who can't rather than a more nuanced discussion about keeping competition great while preventing unnecessary/unfortunate injuries. I think both can be established, it doesn't have to be an either or.

And by not having this conversation, the ISU could be targets for legal action down the line because people disregarded their bodies or resorted to illegal activity for the sake of competition. We're far from that now as a sport...but it could happen if one isn't careful.

mrrice · Jan 27, 2016

I have no idea how things work in gymnastics. However, I know they have had several serious injuries including the young girl from China who was paralyzed after a fall on the Vault. Mini Trampoline's were removed from High School Cheer Leading after a series of injuries. Sports can be dangerous and all we can do is train and hope for the best. My Sister was a Track Athlete and I've seen several of Men fall over High Hurdles and get injured. Yet, the sport continues to be as popular and competitive as ever.

They don't call it sport for nothing. However, maybe an adjustment in the Value of certain elements would help. If a quadless Evan can become Olympic Champion Even though some disagreed ( Elvis S.) then I still have hope.

padme21 · Jan 27, 2016

I don't think the Quad had anything to do with how the men preformed in the FS at Sochi. They were tired and Olympic pressure got to some I'm sure. The lack of down time between the men's sp and fs was simply too short. No one was clean. Which was unfortunate. I still enjoyed the men's fs though.

HanDomi · Jan 27, 2016

padme21 said:
I don't think the Quad had anything to do with how the men preformed in the FS at Sochi. They were tired and Olympic pressure got to some I'm sure. The lack of down time between the men's sp and fs was simply too short. No one was clean. Which was unfortunate. I still enjoyed the men's fs though.

ye, timing between short and long in sochi was ridiculous especially for those who needed to go to press conference after sp

mrrice · Jan 27, 2016

Tavi... said:
I totally agree with you, Mrs. P. I was actually thinking about baseball when I wrote it - remember Barry Bonds, and the epic battle between Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire?

And yes, I agree with you that competition can be phenomenally exciting even if no records are broken.

With respect to Yuzu, what was amazing to me was actually not the quads per se, because they were incorporated so seamlessly and beautifully into the program that they didn't stand out as difficult elements. It was the way he wove everything together, and his absolute, unwavering concentration that was most striking to me - seeing that is rare and mesmerizing.

I think this a perfect example of why this "Quad Off" between the top Men is a Terrible Idea!! Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire were BOTH on Steroids. What they did was NOT achieved through natural ability, it was from drugs.

cruzceleste · Jan 27, 2016

mrrice said:
I think this a perfect example of why this "Quad Off" between the top Men is a Terrible Idea!! Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire were BOTH on Steroids. What they did was NOT achieved through natural ability, it was from drugs.

Well this is not a quad off, anyone can choose not to do a quad, is not a required element.

mrrice · Jan 27, 2016

cruzceleste said:
Well this is not a quad off, anyone can choose not to do a quad, is not a required element.

At this point unfortunately, I think due to the points gained from having a quad. It IS necessary if you want the Gold Medal. Look at the reaction to Adam's Win. Not everyone is thrilled about him beating Max and Nathan and he at least "Attempted" a quad.

cruzceleste · Jan 27, 2016

mrrice said:
At this point unfortunately, I think due to the points gained from having a quad. It IS necessary if you want the Gold Medal. Look at the reaction to Adam's Win. Not everyone is thrilled about him beating Max and Nathan and he at least "Attempted" a quad.

The point is, is up to them, is not obligatory, same as gymnastic aren´t forced into the most difficult elements, or excercise.

ANd even if you have 1, 2 and 3 quads not everyone will be happy with the winning, fans and journalist will complaint about the score system until the end of times.

mrrice · Jan 27, 2016

cruzceleste said:
The point is, is up to them, is not obligatory, same as gymnastic aren´t forced into the most difficult elements, or excercise.

ANd even if you have 1, 2 and 3 quads not everyone will be happy with the winning, fans and journalist will complaint about the score system until the end of times.

It's certainly true with Gymnastics as well. I've seen some scary things happen on the Balance Beam and the Vault. Of course, I can say from experience. Landing on ice after falling hurts a lot more than landing on a mat. I can imagine an ankle or knee injury happening when you hit the ice and then a concussion after sliding into the Boards. It all sounds so terrible when you think of how beautiful a sport figure skating can be.

StitchMonkey · Jan 27, 2016

HanDomi said:
ye, timing between short and long in sochi was ridiculous especially for those who needed to go to press conference after sp

.... I think that is an example of what some of us mean by this needing more attention and study and nuance. Maybe it is just flat out not reasonable for men to not have a day off between competitions at this point... maybe a day off needs to be required. I think a lot of us want this type of conversation to happen.

Perdita · Jan 30, 2016

And this comes...

https://twitter.com/mishageofficial/status/693335687567900673

Today i skated My SP (the Lite version of it, because of my foot condition). With not only thinking about the elements, but with more heart in it. And it was 1st time in the whole season i had that much joy to skate a program (and other people who watch it). Because there was a heart and soul in every movement and position, and it was not only the elements. And i realizing it again, though all of us are working hard to skate the way we need right now for the points, we losing our colors, becoming more plain and more alike with everyone because only thinking about elemnts, and most of the people realizing that too. So you know what? We need to #BringColorsBack . Because skating is not only about elements. We need bring up the bar in elements and technical aspect to make new heights yes, but it doesn't mean that is "One of the Most Beautiful Sport of the World" should not be count by elements only. And we are not gymnastic, on ice. We need to work to improve our difficult elements in most capabilities of our body can do, but we still need to have our own colors, those colors that we draws from our hearts thru the ice, to give it to other people to their hearts. #BeYou #Peace

I don't know what to say. I don't even know if I'm agreeing with him or not.

HanDomi · Jan 30, 2016

Perdita said:
And this comes...

https://twitter.com/mishageofficial/status/693335687567900673

I don't know what to say. I don't even know if I'm agreeing with him or not.

NO one forces him to do things he don't like. He can do what he wants and have joy. End of story

Misha Ge out with Injury from 4CC

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

padme21

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

StitchMonkey

Tavi...

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

padme21

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

mrrice

padme21

HanDomi

mrrice

cruzceleste

mrrice

cruzceleste

mrrice

StitchMonkey

Perdita

HanDomi

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