2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

noskates · Feb 21, 2017

Well you obviously just want to drive your point home with ludicrous analogies. There is soooooooooooooooooooooooo much more to men's figure skating than quads. Or at least there should be. While some think the quad is the only future, others of us feel there should be a balance. But leave the women's competition out of it because the same issues haven't reared their ugly heads yet.

karne · Feb 21, 2017

bekalc said:
I didn't realize it was one type of jump. When top skaters are doing 4/5 of them.

Unless you think its a sad state of affairs that ladies who only do doubles can't win female championships.

You're not comparing apples to apples, though.

But there's clearly no point arguing. You've made it quite clear you think Jason is useless and worthless despite all evidence to the contrary.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2017

andromache said:
Sorry, guess I should've said that if Vincent is scored fairly he would receive 5s and 6s in PCS. He has a lot of promise, but his presentation and skating is nowhere near as developed as Nathan's was last year.

Euros (and Bavarian Open, for that matter) is a much weaker field than Worlds, and Samarin had success on JGP and JGPF to begin building a rep that Vincent doesn't have.

If a skater's only performances of the season until Nationals are poor showings at the junior level, throwing them to the judges at senior Worlds could wind up being a huge mistake. Bavarian Open hadn't happened yet when USFS announced the team, :confused2:. The rules for team selection did not include any competitions after Nationals, so the decision USFS made was and is reasonable.

Both Vincent and Jason made a lot of mistakes at Bavarian Open and 4CCs and wound up with very, very close scores, but it's reasonable to assume that Vincent would receive lower PCS at Worlds, where his weaknesses will be thrown into obvious relief, skating alongside men like Patrick, Yuzu, and yes, Jason.

Last year, in his first JGP season, Vincent made the JGPF and Samarin did not. So Vincent does have past successes equivalent to what Samarin has had this year. Yes, Vincent certainly would get lower PCS scores than Jason if they were both at Worlds. But then Vincent has had just one and a half season of international experience (he was sidelined with a serious injury and surgery after he won the Junior title in 2013 and did not return until the 2015-2016 season). When he first returned to the ice, he didn't even have a 3a and was just working on a quad. The technical progress he has made in a very short time is simply amazing. His performance skills are good, and will improve with more experience. IMO, he is a better natural performer than Samarin.

BTW, silver and bronze JGP medals do not constitute "poor performance". Jason had a silver medal and a 7th place finish in the GP.

Skater Boy · Feb 22, 2017

I think it is clear with Nathan the Americans look great. I think it is safe to say with Nathan 3 spots is a give. Then next year with josh and adam back they don't need Jason to prop up the team.

beki · Feb 22, 2017

I understand the debate here, but as a spectator in Helsinki, I'm thrilled Jason is going. He's the one I would gladly pay money to watch.

FlattFan · Feb 22, 2017

People need to watch ice dance if they don't like quads. Sport is sport. Can't do quad, not on the team. That should be clear.

karne · Feb 22, 2017

Skater Boy said:
I think it is clear with Nathan the Americans look great. I think it is safe to say with Nathan 3 spots is a give. Then next year with josh and adam back they don't need Jason to prop up the team.

Propping up the team my ***...guess who came out on top the last time Joshua, Jason and Adam went head to head? I'll give you a hint, it was your least favourite prop. :rolleye:

FlattFan said:
People need to watch ice dance if they don't like quads. Sport is sport. Can't do quad, not on the team. That should be clear.

So which US man has the highest Worlds finish in recent years? Oh wait...isn't it Jason? Yeah, it's Jason.

Besides, can't do quad, not on team? Yeah, well, until this year, the USFS have been doing a mighty fine job of smacking down anyone who tries to do consistent quads, unless I guess you're a cute kid with a big grin, THEN it's okay.

KatGrace1925 · Feb 22, 2017

I'm actually not the biggest Jason fan, I love his positivity and understand the love for him. I think sending him to worlds was absolutely the right choice, he has what we need to get 3 spots back and will get good scores for all the little things he does (it adds up) and will probably be going for his quad at words and even if he doesn't he will probably place very well. He has great senior international experience backing him up.

TMC · Feb 22, 2017

karne said:
Propping up the team my ***...guess who came out on top the last time Joshua, Jason and Adam went head to head? I'll give you a hint, it was your least favourite prop.

So which US man has the highest Worlds finish in recent years? Oh wait...isn't it Jason? Yeah, it's Jason.

Besides, can't do quad, not on team? Yeah, well, until this year, the USFS have been doing a mighty fine job of smacking down anyone who tries to do consistent quads, unless I guess you're a cute kid with a big grin, THEN it's okay.

This. But none of these facts seem to have any meaning to some people.

It seems that it's a case of "I don't care that he gets high scores, I don't think he should get high scores and what I think should happen is way more important than what actually happens." It's kinda fascinating to watch.

Li'Kitsu · Feb 22, 2017

bekalc said:
Yes Jason was injured. But they all have injuries. It's part and parcel.

Wow. Statements like that really leave me speechless.
Yes, they all - sadly - often have injuries. That is no reason to trivialize and dismiss anyone's injuries. That would be a reason to give all of them the benefit of the doubt. At least if you would care a little for anything else than quad quad quad, like for a skaters health.

Mrs. P · Feb 22, 2017

Well for someone who no longer has any relevance in men's figure skating - y'all are spending a lot of time talking about him. 10 pages. That's like 1/5 of the Men's 4CC thread pre-competition. Great job, Jason. :laugh:

Going to bring some levity and link this cute photo of Mr. and Mrs. Zhang. (aka Caroline Zhang and Grant Hochstein)

That's so great that Grant gets to go to The Netherlands and cheer Caroline on! :love:

ETA: But oh, hey -- Tom Z just posted a instagram of Vincent doing a Rippon 4Z. Let the consternation over World Team selections continue for another 20 pages!
(That said, good for him!)

snowflake · Feb 22, 2017

noskates said:
Well you obviously just want to drive your point home with ludicrous analogies. There is soooooooooooooooooooooooo much more to men's figure skating than quads. Or at least there should be. While some think the quad is the only future, others of us feel there should be a balance. But leave the women's competition out of it because the same issues haven't reared their ugly heads yet.

That's why I like Vincent's skating and think he has a bright future. Impressing jumps though not yet consistent.... some off balance here and there. But all his three level 4 spins in the free skate at Bavarian got positive GOE :thumbsup:.

Has his free skate been posted?

chuckm · Feb 22, 2017

If Jason was in the same prime shape as when he finished 4th at Worlds, I wouldn't argue with his going to Worlds over Vincent, who beat him at Nationals. But Jason is not in prime shape, he is injured, and his ability to practice full out is limited. That affects his stamina which doesn't bode well for his freeskate performance at Worlds. I'm not convinced he will be able to train his quad sufficiently to put it back in his FS in six weeks time.

It seems as if Jason has been injured for the past two seasons. If that has happened because of his quest for the quad, perhaps his body just wasn't built to handle that many rotations in the air.

noskates · Feb 22, 2017

Chuck - I think the rotation is there. We've seen it. It's the landing that's getting him and having your foot banged up definitely has influence. But I have been watching Vincent for 5+ years now and I honestly don't think he has the presence on the ice that Jason does and will lose points based on that - even if he does manage to skate clean. Just my opinion of course but I look to Vincent to be more contributory at the senior level next year. I would like to see him stay in Juniors this year.

Jammers · Feb 22, 2017

snowflake said:
That's why I like Vincent's skating and think he has a bright future. Impressing jumps though not yet consistent.... some off balance here and there. But all his three level 4 spins in the free skate at Bavarian got positive GOE :thumbsup:.

Has his free skate been posted?

That is the only way you get consistent with quads is to keep doing them even if you keep falling or stepping out of them. Nathan has had his times when he wasn't landing them cleanly either but he kept at it and we all know now what he's capable of doing.

bekalc · Feb 22, 2017

Li'Kitsu said:
Wow. Statements like that really leave me speechless.
Yes, they all - sadly - often have injuries. That is no reason to trivialize and dismiss anyone's injuries. That would be a reason to give all of them the benefit of the doubt. At least if you would care a little for anything else than quad quad quad, like for a skaters health.

Once again. I would not give anyone the benefit of the doubt for having an element unless I see them landing it in competition.

THAT''s anyone. Yes he was injured if sucks. I am not judging him on a personal level. He is not worthless. The fact as Chuck said he is getting injured on this jump may indicate that his body can't handle it.

I think the double analogy is fair. You have me doing quad lutzs this is no longer Plush just doing a quad toe

el henry · Feb 22, 2017

Breaking the thread here for a moment (and any discussion about Jason sure does up the thread count.

)

Next year is Grant Hochstein's last? (the entire blog post is well written and worth reading, but in the last paragraph he says "final"):sad21:

http://figureskatersonline.com/granthochstein/site/journal-february-2017/

So glad he had his Worlds moment and enjoyed it as much as we did.:agree: And who knows what can happen next year?

snowflake · Feb 22, 2017

Jammers said:
That is the only way you get consistent with quads is to keep doing them even if you keep falling pr stepping out of them. Nathan has had his times when he wasn't landing them cleanly either but he kept at it and we all know now what he's capable of doing.

I agree with this. I never trusted good jumps being showed on instagram before I saw them nailed in competition.

chuckm · Feb 22, 2017

noskates said:
Chuck - I think the rotation is there. We've seen it. It's the landing that's getting him and having your foot banged up definitely has influence. But I have been watching Vincent for 5+ years now and I honestly don't think he has the presence on the ice that Jason does and will lose points based on that - even if he does manage to skate clean. Just my opinion of course but I look to Vincent to be more contributory at the senior level next year. I would like to see him stay in Juniors this year.

Vincent didn't start skating internationally until 2015-2016 because he had a serious injury and surgery that took him off the ice for two seasons after he won the Junior title in 2013. He had won the Novice title in 2012, when he was 11.

So you couldn't really have been watching Vincent for 5 years, except domestically. He wasn't even age-eligible to compete junior internationally at the time he won the junior title; so he's competed internationally for just 1.5 seasons.

Vincent may never have the total presence on ice as Jason does, but then how many men do? But he is just starting out, and he turned 16 in October. He has a feel for music and does show good expression when he skates. His performance ability will improve as he gains more competitive experience at the senior level.

FlattFan · Feb 22, 2017

Mrs. P said:
Well for someone who no longer has any relevance in men's figure skating - y'all are spending a lot of time talking about him. 10 pages. That's like 1/5 of the Men's 4CC thread pre-competition. Great job, Jason.

Going to bring some levity and link this cute photo of Mr. and Mrs. Zhang. (aka Caroline Zhang and Grant Hochstein)

That's so great that Grant gets to go to The Netherlands and cheer Caroline on!

ETA: But oh, hey -- Tom Z just posted a instagram of Vincent doing a Rippon 4Z. Let the consternation over World Team selections continue for another 20 pages!
(That said, good for him!)

If he didn't rob Vincent the spot, no one would talk about him except his fans.

2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

noskates

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

chuckm

Skater Boy

beki

FlattFan

Match Penalty

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

KatGrace1925

TMC

Li'Kitsu

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

snowflake

I enjoy what I like

chuckm

noskates

Jammers

bekalc

el henry

Go have some cake. And come back with jollity.

snowflake

I enjoy what I like

chuckm

FlattFan

Match Penalty

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