G&M Article on the Judging Controversy

Kwanford Wife said:

Please clarify this for me... Commentators, fans & the media should not point out wacky results, placements & issues because it makes skating controversial. Hmmm... now I would have thought BECAUSE of wacky results, placements & issues figure skating has become controversial.

I think its important that folks start looking at the source of the problems & protest that as that will be the death of figure skating... Saying that Witt, other commentators, fans & the media are wrong to be upset is conterproductive.

Kwanford Wife.

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COMMENTATORS:a person who writes or delivers a commentary: a person who reports,analyzes, and evaluates news events and trends on radio, television or newspaper. These are the people that I was talking about, people that suppoosedly know what they are talking about or think they know what they are talking about! That's the ones that starts the contraversies.

millie said:

COMMENTATORS:a person who writes or delivers a commentary: a person who reports,analyzes, and evaluates news events and trends on radio, television or newspaper. These are the people that I was talking about, people that suppoosedly know what they are talking about or think they know what they are talking about! That's the ones that starts the contraversies.

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Ok, now I get it ... because I thought Katarina Witt would know something about skating...teehee... Just jokes Millie... But you gotta admit, it IS ironic! Right up there with "we need to train the judges better!" and "there wouldn't be any corruption if the fans and media stopped badmouthing the sport!" These are just things I've seen on other sites and its just amusing... sad, but amusing.

I guess my point is that instead of picking on each other, we should storm the castle & demand a revolution... Too bad I have no idea what that revolution should look like... Not that it would be televised ~ unless ESPN took pity on us!

Kwanford Wife

Controversies in figure skating begin when the judging just doesn't match the performances, and the results don't seem to be justified. The commentators, all of whom are experienced in the sport in one area or another, are merely expressing their astonishment that the performances they saw could result in the judged placements.

IMO, ESPN went out of its way to legitimize Irina's placement in the FS and N/K's in the FD. I think that is not quite fair, either. They showed Irina's SP, but not Poykio's, Sebestyen's, or Liashenko's. Yes, we understood that Irina won the championship because her high score in the SP would have kept her in first place regardless of how she did in the FS. But having seen Irina's FS vs. Poykio's and Liashenko's, there is NO WAY she should have been placed first in the FS. The ESPN commentators nitpicked Poykio's and Liashenko's FSs and praised Irina for continuing to try after missing most of her jumps.

In the end, I felt very irritated with Wylie and Wynne for rubber-stamping the judges.

chuckm said:

In the end, I felt very irritated with Wylie and Wynne for rubber-stamping the judges.

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ITA. There has to be a better twosome to replace Uncle Dick and Aunt Peggy. Tracy with that breathless voice was excusing Irina for every mistake, and nitpicking all the other Ladies. Paul just sat there and agreed with her.

Joe

In my own opinion, I disagree with this part...

chuckm said:

But having seen Irina's FS vs. Poykio's and Liashenko's, there is NO WAY she should have been placed first in the FS. The ESPN commentators nitpicked Poykio's and Liashenko's FSs and praised Irina for continuing to try after missing most of her jumps.

In the end, I felt very irritated with Wylie and Wynne for rubber-stamping the judges.

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None of these ladies had a stellar skate. I suspect the immediate reactions of Witt and others commentating live are somewhat rooted in reactions that would have been more appropriate under 6.0, where a count of jumps often deterimined a winner, where commentators tended to comment (as they still seem to do) on number of completed triples. Hence, "how could a three triple program win? This is an OUTRAGE!!" But 6.0 isn't the system anymore, and whether any of us like or agree with COP, or believe it is or is not implemented to it's best, it clearly and distinctly rewards other things. Fans and commentators IMO are still getting used to that idea.

Among three less than stellar skates, the fact is that it was scored very close by the judges in the FS. The difference between first and third in the FS was less than 1.5 points. I'm not a judge and this is just my own opinion, but after watching the FS's, I could easily accept the result. And unlike 6.0, he/she who wins the free does not win the contest if they are in the top 3 in the short. So that's a big difference for fans and commentators to get used to as well.

So looking at the ESPN commentary which of course was after the fact, and they had time to plan their comments and presentation of the event, I think their careful presentation of what actually happened with the judging (agree with it or not) was a good offset to the more emotional first reactions that we all heard about.

I would be more willing to accuse ESPN of "propping and defending" for the ISU if it was a bit more crystal clear that the judging was way off, AND if the podium results would have changed. But in this case, I think any argument that the result was wrong is so minimal that it can only be attributed to personal opinion on the PCS side of the fence.

This doesn't take away any concerns for me that PCS scores are not being applied properly, but I'm not convinced they weren't applied similarly for all 3 skaters at the top of the FS.

DG

Joesitz said:

ITA. There has to be a better twosome to replace Uncle Dick and Aunt Peggy. Tracy with that breathless voice was excusing Irina for every mistake, and nitpicking all the other Ladies. Paul just sat there and agreed with her.

Joe

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I think they did that b/c the new judging system has to be given a chance to succeed. For the most part, it seems to have been very well received by the skaters and the judges. There is a lot of movement in the standings and skaters who would not have made the podium under the 6.0 system are making it now. I also think the new system benefits countries with smaller federations such as Finland. Look at how Rakkamo and Kokko were treated when they skated. They were one of the best ice dance couples (much better than the Duschenays at least) and they constantly finished off the world podium (in fact quite far down). At least Poykio is making the podium at a big event such as Euros. Also once other factors are being considered other than jumps, the results are going to be opened up to questioning. BTW, no one seemed to make a big fuss when Buttle beat a squeaky clean Li at GPF who had two quads while Jeff had his usual jump error. All the commentary seems to be directed at the fact that Irina had 3 jumps while the others had more and jumps are just part of the measuring stick. There were many people who felt that Poykio was extremely slow and ended her program very weakly while Irina finished her program strong (or at least kept her energy up).

Hi Soogar...

Looks like we were posting about the same time. We must have been on a brain wave!

DG

Buttle beat Li at the GPF but Buttle's skate was very good, with only one real mistake, and the mistake didn't impact Jeff's program much.

Li had two quads, but in watching his program, once the quads were landed, the rest of the program was boring. Everything else except the jumps was very ordinary, and there was no attempt at interpreting the music. Jeff's program, OTOH, was very interesting, there were many variations of speed, different and novel kinds of jumps, and footwork, and he interpreted every note of the music.

I think Jeff deserved high PCS scores, though not as high as one of the judges gave (in the 9s), and I believe he deserved to be placed ahead of Li on the basis of the PCS scores.

There is no comparison between Buttle's GPF FS and Irina's Euros FS. Irina missed most of her jumps, while Jeff missed just one. Irina is not particularly musical, nor was there any real attempt at interpretation, and when Irina is not landing her jumps, her program isn't interesting because it lacks changes in speed and variety---every other non-jump move is a Biellmann.

chuckm said:

There is no comparison between Buttle's GPF FS and Irina's Euros FS. Irina missed most of her jumps, while Jeff missed just one. Irina is not particularly musical, nor was there any real attempt at interpretation, and when Irina is not landing her jumps, her program isn't interesting because it lacks changes in speed and variety---every other non-jump move is a Biellmann.

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See how arbitrary presentation is? Maybe you're not impressed about Irina's overuse of the Biellmann, but the judges who know skating and are applying the rulebook are awarding Irina the points based on the difficulty of doing spirals and changing edges in that postion. I was impressed with Li and I thought his presentation of his program was really good and he even got the crowd involved. He also did two quads and was clean. Did Jeff land a quad? He did have an error but I think his overall jump content was less than Li's.

I'm not really contesting Li v. Buttle, but the same things can be said for Irina at Euros. Maybe the program didn't "sing" for you but there were a lot of people who felt that her powerful skating was better than Poykio's 5 triple program which died at the end.

Maybe you're not impressed about Irina's overuse of the Biellmann, but the judges who know skating and are applying the rulebook are awarding Irina the points based on the difficulty

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Hopefully they will do something about that and stop awarding for overusing a move in one program.

Even under 6.0, presentation wasn't Irina's strong suit. She is very fast, but she doesn't take the time to give each move its full value. There are no pointed toes, and no gestures that reflect nuances in the music. Her arms are pretty much waving in the air with no regard to the music. And now that she uses the Biellmann so much, her arms are mostly holding her leg.

Under CoP, I think Irina is overscored in both choreography and interpretation. IMO, choreography that is oriented to speed, speed, speed and that overuses one position limits interpretation, while choreography that uses variations in speed and tempo, and a variety of different spins and positions allows the skater to express the music far more effectively.