2017 World Team Trophy - Day 2

[asiacheetah]

Rinkside report: what a mess of a Men Event. NO ONE went clean. I thought since the scores were tight, the judges were waiting to throw all the PB at Shoma. Even with all the questionable jumps and landings, I thought the judges were going to put him first. Sanity prevailed. Other than his Loop and Axel, those jumps were shaky and the flip(?) looks super cheated even in real time.

Great to see Yuzu cheering hard for Shoma. I can tell he thought he lost to Shoma. He really is too hard on himself. He did 4 beautifully executed quads. He should have more faith in his unreal skating skills. Who would have thought his lead would last through the second group. You can tell everyone was exhausted by the long season.

Overall great experience. I'm glad I got to see H+L in person since it's my favorite program. Even got to see an Emergency Quad triple combo.

 

[NoNameFace]

Boyang Jin 97.98 + 174.63 = 272.61

http://www.jsfresults.com/intl/2016-2017/wtt/data0103.htm
http://www.jsfresults.com/intl/2016-2017/wtt/data0105.htm

corrected, many thanks!

 

[Interspectator]

Rinkside report: what a mess of a Men Event. NO ONE went clean. I thought since the scores were tight, the judges were waiting to throw all the PB at Shoma. Even with all the questionable jumps and landings, I thought the judges were going to put him first. Sanity prevailed. Other than his Loop and Axel, those jumps were shaky and the flip(?) looks super cheated even in real time.

Great to see Yuzu cheering hard for Shoma. I can tell he thought he lost to Shoma. He really is too hard on himself. He did 4 beautifully executed quads. He should have more faith in his unreal skating skills. Who would have thought his lead would last through the second group. You can tell everyone was exhausted by the long season.

Overall great experience. I'm glad I got to see H+L in person since it's my favorite program. Even got to see an Emergency Quad triple combo.

Thank you for your on-site reports!

 

[asiacheetah]

THE PCS had regressed since 4CC.

He was overscored to begin with. His choreography and musical interpretation has no business being higher than 8 for that empty program.

He also hasn't gone clean since 4CC.

 

[Art&Sport]

Shoma is great, but he is still a bit over-rated because everyone is mesmerized by the way he floats over the ice. He has some flaws in his jump technique and execution at times that are completely overlooked. He is still young and similar to Nathan, Shoma has a way to go re maturity artistically. But everyone seems convinced that Shoma is already superior artistically simply because of his precocious abilities and his smooth flow (plus the event is taking place in Japan, so maybe that accounts for some of Shoma's scoring inflation). Shoma has finesse and humongous talent, but I do not think he's that great interpretively, but that's the sport.

In regard to pairs, IMHO Cain/LeDuc were dumped on in the scoring. Their speed is improved and they executed everything well, plus they are excellent performers on the ice and did not get credit for that. Skating first hurt them a little, but there is still no excuse for the low-ball score. It seems to me the judges would have liked to put C/L below the Japanese pair, but couldn't. C/L are in a higher overall level of ability and execution than the Japanese team. Plus C/L have the most difficult sbs jumps of any team, which they executed flawlessly.

I don't disagree too much with the pairs placements except the Russians as usual are being classed too high to begin with, just as they have been all season long (they should not have been receiving scores of 80 during the season). T/M still have a lot to work on. Their skating skills are execellent and usually they have very good execution, but Tarasova was injured at Worlds and must still be feeling the effects of it. I think Stolbova/Klimov should have been selected for WTT (and give Tarasova some time to heal her leg, for goodness sake)! Unless S/K declined WTT, which I doubt was the case.

Anyway, the scoring here shows the heavy reputation politics that is rampant in the sport. U.S. pairs are always classed lower and often dumped on. The way C/L skated, their score should have been at least 63+ with better GOE and PCS. The main flaw I saw for C/L was the lean in the air on their 3-twist with not as crisp a catch, but they still had good flow out on that element. I don't know if protocols are available but they should have received high GOE on their sbs 3-loops. They are working this off-season on developing more difficult lifts and overall improvements as a new team.

If you compare Michael Marinaro straight up with Timothy LeDuc, Timothy should be rated higher as a better pairs partner, and that's a fact. Michael is getting better but he's not there yet. M-T/M do have an excellent choreographed program and they skated well. M-T/M's 3-twist is excellent and of a higher quality than C/L's, but they are no better performers than C/L, and M-T/M did not have as difficult sbs jumps as C/L. So it seems that C/L are being seen as a new pair on the scene and U.S. pairs are being generally looked down on as usual. Part of the judges' dismissiveness is likely due to U.S. pairs not having a good season generally because of illness and injuries (and the new U.S. pairings are not yet fully recognized). That must in part be what led to C/L's lowball marks despite the fact they skated a clean program. As I said, I don't disagree too much with the placements, but the scoring is off. I think M-T/M and Peng/Jin were overscored. C/L were underscored and should not be classed with the less accomplished Japanese team as is obviously what was happening in the scoring. And 66+ is still high for what the overly revered Russian team were able to put out in the sp.

I was glad to see the French team (James/Cipres) scored decently in the sp. They earned it, and deserved it!

 

[Kelly]

It is just one of those things, i just don't believe youngsters should be getting 90s in PCS when veterans took years to develop them and proves them, unless immitation is a great form of sport and art. With Shoma, i will know it when I see it. He is musical but he need to develop his own unique voice, and transcend beyond himself. Jason transcended from himself, that is why he earned his PCS today, generous or not.

I see PCS now used to mark territory rather than fit for purpose anyway. Today, the judges is saying Boyang and Nathen, you are 10 PCS away from Shoma, but Shoma is only 1 points away from Hanyu the Olympic Champion. I go, oh well... guess they are setting him up for Beijing.

They are setting him up for Pyeongchang?!

 

[Mirunna]

I see PCS now used to mark territory rather than fit for purpose anyway. Today, the judges is saying Boyang and Nathen, you are 10 PCS away from Shoma, but Shoma is only 1 points away from Hanyu the Olympic Champion. I go, oh well... guess they are setting him up for Beijing.

And yet, when you put Shoma next to Boyang and Nathan, you don't see a 10+ points in PCS gap in favor of Shoma? If Shoma should not be in 90+ PCS category, neither sould Boyang/Nathan be in the 80+ category.
Just IMO of course

 

[Art&Sport]

Shoma doesn't choose, and doesn't care. He just does whatever and then interpretates the hell out of it.

Not well though. Shoma's interpretation is overly studied as is normally the case for a skater who still has some maturing to do. But everyone is so mesmerized by Shoma's precocious talents, they think that his interpretation is great. Not really. He just has an amazing floating ability, and finesse aside from some jump technique flaws. Shoma still needs to mature artistically. The ISU judges just seem to love as usual overdoing it in the marks for certain skaters.

I don't see why all the criticisms thrown at Nathan. He is out there just like the rest of them throwing the quads that the sport seems to love. I don't care how empty people feel Nathan's programs are, he has thrown a wrench in the status quo at the top of men's skating, which is part of what is helping Shoma with the marks. The young guns are being given a lot of cred in lead up to next year's Olympics. If someone was talking about Nathan not being clean since 4CCs, why not talk about Hanyu's cleanliness track record. It's amazing that Nathan has been able to skate back-to-back clean performances with 5 quads in fp and 2 quads in sp. I don't think that accomplishment can really be understood re its utter difficulty. It was amazing and has never been done before in the history of the sport.

 

[nekun]

I hope Nathan still skate after PyongChang, this kid sure has so much potential, I will be sad for sure if he will go so soon.
I know study is important but...

 

[largeman]

Nathan got lower PCS in the free skate here than at Worlds? That is so wrong.

 

[MaiKatze]

Not well though. Shoma's interpretation is overly studied as is normally the case for a skater who still has some maturing to do. But everyone is so mesmerized by Shoma's precocious talents, they think that his interpretation is great. Not really. He just has an amazing floating ability, and finesse aside from some jump technique flaws. Shoma still needs to mature artistically. The ISU judges just seem to love as usual overdoing it in the marks for certain skaters.

I don't see why all the criticisms thrown at Nathan. He is out there just like the rest of them throwing the quads that the sport seems to love. I don't care how empty people feel Nathan's programs are, he has thrown a wrench in the status quo at the top of men's skating, which is part of what is helping Shoma with the marks. The young guns are being given a lot of cred in lead up to next year's Olympics. If someone was talking about Nathan not being clean since 4CCs, why not talk about Hanyu's cleanliness track record. It's amazing that Nathan has been able to skate back-to-back clean performances with 5 quads in fp and 2 quads in sp. I don't think that accomplishment can really be understood re its utter difficulty. It was amazing and has never been done before in the history of the sport.

I beg to differ. Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder. While I understand if people criticize Shoma's jumping technique or technical abilities (even though I also disagree with that), arguments like this are not working. I know, people will scream bloody murder at me, but for me Shoma is the best interpreter of music of the currently competing men. He lives his music. I don't see this in anyone else right now. For you he seems like he's just repeating something he studied from someone else. For OS, he's copying Daisuke. Fair enough. It's your truth, and this is mine.

 

[OS]

And yet, when you put Shoma next to Boyang and Nathan, you don't see a 10+ points in PCS gap in favor of Shoma? If Shoma should not be in 90+ PCS category, neither sould Boyang/Nathan be in the 80+ category.
Just IMO of course

That's just the thing, what is 3 points difference, 5 points difference, 10 points difference? I mean, afterall you have Patrick like barely lead others in PCS these days by a point and sometimes behind.

 

[Tolstoj]

Yuzuru Hanyu -> 4lo at the beginning was so smooth, some mistake here and there, the program is beautiful (but it's time to change).

Shoma Uno -> the first 4Lo was beautiful, the spread eagle into the 3A-3T in the 2nd half also very effective, but i'm not a huge fan of his 4F (looks cheated to me). Beautiful choreography but i would like to see more facial expressions. The last spin he was travelling a lot, i don't know why they gave him so many +3 for that, but still a huge performance nonetheless.

Patrick Chan -> again the opening combo so easy, the rest a little scratchy but still one of the best performance from him this season. The program is fine, but i like his SP way more (this looks kind of similar to last year FS)

Nathan Chen -> i really like him: great jumper and spinner, the program is still meh to me, it looks unbalanced: the first part is very much "Alexander Samarin style" (jumps, arms flailing, and nothing else), but the steps sequence shows that his skating is very good and he could do much more than that. PCS fairly on par / slightly above Jin.

Mikhail Kolyada -> perhaps the first time i've really enjoyed this program. I had never seen him this relaxed before, he really sold every second of it, great speed across the ice and basically all the triples came out of nowhere (the second 3A was so huge) and maybe with some of them he should add more transitions. The 4Ltz was almost done.

Boyang Jin -> not his best performance, that double lutz was very unusual, he's definitely improving on the second mark, i'm excited to see him next season.

Jason Brown -> beautiful program, steps sequence always very emotional, and the flexibility on the spins is impressive. 3A too much telegraphed at this level in my opinion. I don't understand the point of not even attempting the 4T here where you have nothing to lose, but whatever.

Best performance so far -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnJOq4Y-6k4

 

[narcissa]

So, having watched Shoma's loco free skate in person at World's where he skated it reasonably well, I have to say...it makes a lot more sense in person. It's actually edgy and well executed.

As for Yuzuru, I will just say... I think everyone is exhausted, not just you, so you really shouldn't beat yourself up so much! And I'm so happy for this happy end to this exhausting season.

 

[Kelly]

And yet, when you put Shoma next to Boyang and Nathan, you don't see a 10+ points in PCS gap in favor of Shoma? If Shoma should not be in 90+ PCS category, neither sould Boyang/Nathan be in the 80+ category.
Just IMO of course

No, I don't see Shoma is 10+ points in PCS better than Boyang and Nathan at any day.
So in this free program if Yuzuru got 93, Patrick got 95 and Jason got 92, I think Shoma should not have
gotten over 90 with Nathan and Boyang's PCS stayed the same.

 

[Mirunna]

That's just the thing, what is 3 points difference, 5 points difference, 10 points difference?

You are right and I don't know how to answer your question. Maybe the gap should be enough to encourage skaters to also work on the generally called "artistic side" (PCS department) and not try to make up for it by adding a 5th, 6th, 100th quad. You land 6 quads in the LP - cool. You get humongous TES, as it should be. If landing 6 quads means the program is virtually empty (and I am not saying that about Nathan/Boyang, it is just an example), then the judges should have the courage to award points like 4 or 5 for certain components.
What Nathan does is great - he is really pushing the sport forwards. He should be acknowledged and praised for this. But he is sacrificing a lot on some of the PCS. Why should Rafael / the fans/ even Nathan himself be disappointed with the PCS then? You go for the TES (and you land things that nobody else is doing), you get the best score. You sacrifice PCS in order to get the TES, you get less PCS. It should be that simple, at least in theory, right?

 

[magicalwords]

I don't consider WTT scores as seriously as other official ISU competitions. To me it's like inter"Nationals" despite what its official standing might be. It's really unfortunate for Nathan that they dinged his PCS so much, his skate wasn't disastrous. It did him no good competing here "reputation"-wise. Oh well, I still :luv17: him, I hope to see him return with better program come next year.

 

[coldblueeyes]

quote!

I love C/L, but they left a lot of points on the table. A LOT. Their BiDs is barely level three with zero additional feautures, there's a lot of work for their twist yet and Ashley, sadly, underrotated her 3l. Also, the throw is a bit telegraphed, and while there's a nice spring to it, the landing is too heavy and with not a lot of flow. They need to capitalize ont he GOE too, which they are not doing yet - even the step sequence, which is a highlight, is a bit slow. They have a good season or two before they can move up the standings.

 

[Mirunna]

Just a quick analysis of the SS scores of the quadsters monsters and the old guard here.

Yuzuru got 9.5, Shoma 9.36, Patrick 9.64, Nathan 8.5 and Boyang 8.43. Add the factor (*2) , and you get the following actual points that were part of their scores:

- Yuzuru 19
- Shoma 18.72
- Patrick 19.28
- Boyang 16.86
- Nathan 17

The difference between Patrick (with the best SS out there, I think everybody can agree) and Boyang (mediocre SS, to be polite) is 2.42.
Why would Boyang for example bother to improve his SS? He can make it up extremely easy on TES.

 

[MaiKatze]

It is just one of those things, i just don't believe youngsters should be getting 90s in PCS when veterans took years to develop them and proves them, unless immitation is a great form of sport and art. With Shoma, i will know it when I see it. He is musical but he need to develop his own unique voice, and transcend beyond himself. Jason transcended from himself, that is why he earned his PCS today, generous or not.

I see PCS now used to mark territory rather than fit for purpose anyway. Today, the judges is saying Boyang and Nathen, you are 10 PCS away from Shoma, but Shoma is only 1 points away from Hanyu the Olympic Champion. I go, oh well... guess they are setting him up for Beijing.

I do hope that Shoma will, with time, be more involved in the music choices, but I also believe right now he is still at a point where others might know better what's good for him. I don't see any young man choosing the tango music of his long, or even the Ladies in Lavender. If a younger skater is choosing their own music you'll probably get things like Elena Radionova's JLo and Titanic programs, or whatever Maxim Kovtun skates to. I don't doubt Elena was a 100% behind these choices and loved skating to that music. I enjoyed that too, but I guess the majority of people dislike that sort of thing, and the judges probably prefer a classical Ladies in Lavender to the Sacred Spirits mouth organ piece, Shoma did last season in his SP.