2018 Olympic Figure Skating Free Dance

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Just reading the last few posts of this thread, I find Matt K's comments about the Shibs to be funny because it was quite similar to what people were writing about them four years ago. "They seem content with only getting top ten results at Worlds and won't ever challenge for medals"/"they have to leave Marina!" v. now "they seem quite content with only being medal contenders and don't want to challenge for the gold"/"they have to leave Marina!" but now with the added ridiculousness of them never letting go of "Coldplay". They obviously chose Coldplay for the Olympic season because they knew their audiences were going to be broader at the Olympics and they wanted to skate to something they felt personally strong about and wanted a vehicle where the audiences saw Maia and Alex and could connect with them on a personal level. It seems to have worked in a big way as they are one of the most talked about Olympians. I don't know what the future holds for the Shibs, but I do know they played the game very well this season and always seem to exceed expectations...which is what Alex wrote about on Twitter days ago.

 

[Diok]

The particular US ice dance judge, and coincidentally, the particular Chinese judge at this event have had their knives out for V/M for a long, long time now since the Vancouver Olympics. For V/M to have skated so well, the rest of the panel could not turn a blind eye to their skating and gave them their deservedly high marks in the FD.

Those particular 2 judges, much to their chagrin, failed at denying V/M their deserved 2nd individual Olympic gold medal. But who cares about them. V/M's coaching change, their team around them, and their newly revamped personnel really made the difference vs. 4 years ago.

If only V/M, at their peak in 2012, had made the change earlier to Dubreuil/Lauzon, it would not even have been close. V/M would have beaten every other team at that time, quite possibly.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DawnQOT]

I believe the selection process for judges is detailed by the ISU. In each event (i.e. NHK) and each section (i.e. Sd or FD) a panel of judges are drawn (I believe blindly drawn, not selected) from a pool of qualified, eligible judges. Therefore, according to the rules in effect all the judges on the panel had the right to be there. Is it fair? Likely as fair as anything that has been in use for selecting judges in the last decade. If there is a concern that qualified judges who hold a certain position(s) in a nation's skating federation should not be considered eligible, than that has to be put forward and become part of the eligibility criteria and then be applied across the board. There was no fuss about Skate Canada's President Leanna Caron being an eligible judge until this event didn't go as some had wanted. And, let's consider that the source of most of the shade is the French Federation which has be proven to participate in vote fixing in the past. I think that the bigger shame is that the guilty Didier Gailhaguet and Marie-Reine Le Gougne are still embraced in the FFSG.
I don't fully understand the process and challenges faced in training, and certifying judges. Perhaps it is difficult to find many people who are willing to go through the process (which I believe takes quite a bit of time and money to complete) who are passionate enough to put that ahead of other responsibilities in their lives.

 

[BlueCat28]

I believe the selection process for judges is detailed by the ISU. In each event (i.e. NHK) and each section (i.e. Sd or FD) a panel of judges are drawn (I believe blindly drawn, not selected) from a pool of qualified, eligible judges. Therefore, according to the rules in effect all the judges on the panel had the right to be there. Is it fair? Likely as fair as anything that has been in use for selecting judges in the last decade. If there is a concern that qualified judges who hold a certain position(s) in a nation's skating federation should not be considered eligible, than that has to be put forward and become part of the eligibility criteria and then be applied across the board. There was no fuss about Skate Canada's President Leanna Caron being an eligible judge until this event didn't go as some had wanted. And, let's consider that the source of most of the shade is the French Federation which has be proven to participate in vote fixing in the past. I think that the bigger shame is that the guilty Didier Gailhaguet and Marie-Reine Le Gougne are still embraced in the FFSG.
I don't fully understand the process and challenges faced in training, and certifying judges. Perhaps it is difficult to find many people who are willing to go through the process (which I believe takes quite a bit of time and money to complete) who are passionate enough to put that ahead of other responsibilities in their lives.

Of course they re selected by the isu rules But canadian judge is so lucky to be selected in EVERY ice dance competition. French judge only one time(?).Most likely ,without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel thye could have won

 

[Koatterce]

Of course they re selected by the isu rules But canadian judge is so lucky to be selected in EVERY ice dance competition. French judge only one time(?).Most likely ,without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel thye could have won

I calculated the probabilities of being the judge for team/SD, team/FD, team/both, SD only, FD only, and SD/FD only. judges remain the same for both portions of the team event, so I assumed that they were drawn for the team event as a whole.
It turns out that being drawn for all events is not as unlikely as it appears; in fact, it is the most likely scenario.

Team/SD: 21.3% [UKR, ISR]
Team/FD: 21.3% [ESP, SVK, CHN]
Team/SD/FD: 26.6% [CAN, JPN, USA, TUR]
SD: 9.5% [FRA, ITA]
FD:9.5% [POL]
SD/FD: 11.8% [RUS]

 

[DawnQOT]

Of course they re selected by the isu rules But canadian judge is so lucky to be selected in EVERY ice dance competition. French judge only one time(?).Most likely ,without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel thye could have won

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't have a view into alternate universes to be able to see what would be the 'most likely' outcome from a minor change. Perhaps without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel, V/M would have fallen 5 times and Gabbi's dress wouldn't have broken for the second time in less than 2 days. Or perhaps, V/M, P/C, S/S, H/d, B/S, C/L, W/P, G/P, C/B, G/F, C/B, H/K, Z/G, K/S, and M/R would have each fallen 6 times AND each had 5 costume problems then Germany's L/P could have won the Gold.

 

[DawnQOT]

Of course they re selected by the isu rules But canadian judge is so lucky to be selected in EVERY ice dance competition. French judge only one time(?).Most likely ,without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel thye could have won

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't have a view into alternate universes to be able to see what would be the 'most likely' outcome from a minor change. Perhaps without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel, V/M would have fallen 5 times and Gabbi's dress wouldn't have broken for the second time in less than 2 days. Or perhaps, V/M, P/C, S/S, H/D, B/S, C/L, W/P, G/P, C/B, G/F, C/B, H/K, Z/G, K/S, and M/R would have each fallen 6 times AND each had 2 costume problems then Germany's L/P could have won the Gold.

 

[DawnQOT]

I calculated the probabilities of being the judge for team/SD, team/FD, team/both, SD only, FD only, and SD/FD only. judges remain the same for both portions of the team event, so I assumed that they were drawn for the team event as a whole.
It turns out that being drawn for all events is not as unlikely as it appears; in fact, it is the most likely scenario.

Team/SD: 21.3% [UKR, ISR]
Team/FD: 21.3% [ESP, SVK, CHN]
Team/SD/FD: 26.6% [CAN, JPN, USA, TUR]
SD: 9.5% [FRA, ITA]
FD:9.5% [POL]
SD/FD: 11.8% [RUS]

Wow. Thanks for checking it out. Interesting numbers. I do know that what seems likely isn't necessarily what happens. If you draw 5 from the same group of 10 for 10 separate events it is possible that one or more may be drawn for all 10 events and that one or more may not be drawn for any of the events. That is why it is called 'luck of the draw'. Buying 5 lottery tickets in a 1/1,000,000 draw doesn't make you 5 times more likely to win
Once again, thank you for putting these numbers together.

 

[BlueCat28]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't have a view into alternate universes to be able to see what would be the 'most likely' outcome from a minor change. Perhaps without canadian judge , or with french and canadian in the panel, V/M would have fallen 5 times and Gabbi's dress wouldn't have broken for the second time in less than 2 days. Or perhaps, V/M, P/C, S/S, H/D, B/S, C/L, W/P, G/P, C/B, G/F, C/B, H/K, Z/G, K/S, and M/R would have each fallen 6 times AND each had 2 costume problems then Germany's L/P could have won the Gold.

making up such fairy tales is stupid and disrespectful. You realize that? Are you saying it seriously?
If its the same for you and you dont see any difference...sorry.I dont know why even you bother to respond.
If falling apart of a dress happens often and it is a normal thing , twice a row ..oki .
I didnt post the best scenario for p-c , i just pointed out that lack of french judge and in the same time with canadian judge there was suicide for french.
You find it irrevelant , coz it fits your narrative.

 

[DawnQOT]

making up such fairy tales is stupid and disrespectful. You realize that? Are you saying it seriously?
If its the same for you and you dont have see any difference...sorry.I dont know why even you bother to respond.
If falling apart of a dress happens often and it is a normal thing , twice a row ..oki .
I didnt post the best scenario for p-c , i just pointed out that lack of french judge and in the same time with canadian judge there was suicide for french.
You find it irrevelant , coz it fits your narrative.

What I am saying is that I don't know what would happen if there had been different judges or any other differences. But, perhaps you have special powers that I don't. If that is the case, congratulations and could you give the winning numbers for the next big lottery?

Please note that I didn't call your fairy tale stupid or disrespectful.

 

[BlueCat28]

What I am saying is that I don't know what would happen if there had been different judges or any other differences. But, perhaps you have special powers that I don't. If that is the case, congratulations and could you give the winning numbers for the next big lottery?

Please note that I didn't call your fairy tale stupid or disrespectful.

Please, read it once again what it is bolded out . It is disrespectful and cannot be compared what I posted . You came up with some massacre in dance event which is ridicolous. And it is pure fairy tale. German would have win if the rest of them fell 6 times ? It is the same with me saying that there should be french judge along with canadian?
I just think in such political dyscipline like figure skating and especially ice dancing there should be no such situations like for example here , having only 1 judge form two countries who fight for gold.Two of the in the panel, or none

 

[rain]

In other thoughts aside from V/M and P/C, I think that Zoueva and Scali have really dropped the ball.

Oleg and Massimo Scali's contributions to the Zoueva school have not been good. I thought that Scali, as a self-professed artist, would bring much more to the choreography and programs of Zoueva's teams. But his work has been bland, uninspiring, choreography-by-numbers, and just plain stale. So sad that the Shibs are continuing in that direction. Also very sad for Stepanova/Bukin to have not competed this Olympics.

If you go back and watch old programs for Virtue/Moir and Davis White etc. you can see how inspired some of the choreography coming out of Zoueva's camp used to be — and I totally agree with you that it has become largely bland and uninteresting (with the exception of a couple of the Shibs short dances (the last two years), which I thought were some of the best in the field. Zoueva, or whoever is taking charge of the choreo (I know it used to be her) still manages to hit the musical highlights pretty well at times (timing the Shibs twizzles), but it's the in-betweens (all of the step sequences, and you know, the dancing) that have become rote and hum-drum. I find myself with little memory of the steps afterwards. Which is in contrast to what Marie-France and her team and the choreographers they're using are doing.

 

[Matt K]

If you go back and watch old programs for Virtue/Moir and Davis White etc. you can see how inspired some of the choreography coming out of Zoueva's camp used to be — and I totally agree with you that it has become largely bland and uninteresting (with the exception of a couple of the Shibs short dances (the last two years), which I thought were some of the best in the field. Zoueva, or whoever is taking charge of the choreo (I know it used to be her) still manages to hit the musical highlights pretty well at times (timing the Shibs twizzles), but it's the in-betweens (all of the step sequences, and you know, the dancing) that have become rote and hum-drum. I find myself with little memory of the steps afterwards. Which is in contrast to what Marie-France and her team and the choreographers they're using are doing.

This is such a spot-on post. Everything you just stated encapsulates everything that I feel about Zoueva's work so far. And what Massimo Scali and Oleg Epstein is contributing is even worse, if you can believe it. Both Scali and Epstein are, I don't even know how, but giving Zoueva's already bland and rote "choreography by numbers" routines an even drab, rote, and bland tone (in all the couples, this is not an anomaly). And as a self-professed "artiste", Massimo Scali sure has not demonstrated or inspired any artistic prowess in his teams.

Zoueva's teams have had insufficient transitions such that the quality of the in-betweens as you mentioned is so lacking, when compared to Dubreuil or even Camerlengo. Hitting the musical highlights is not enough, everybody can do that, but the actual dancing bit is quite non-existent. And Scali and Epstein are just out to lunch. No technical expertise, no artistic expertise, no choreo expertise. What are they there for? I do not know. But Zoueva's work has gotten even worse over the years, which was already not good. This should be very worrisome for the Shibutanis, who due to their bronze medal, will now never leave Zoueva.

Even if people prefer different tastes, it cannot be denied that Dubreuil's choreography , that is, not just the elements, but the in-betweens, has been thought out and much more difficult than Zoueva's, which is only used to set up the next element.

I am not saying that Shibutanis should go to Dubreuil. IMO, they would drop in rankings. But staying with Zoueva, IMO they will stagnate. I do not know what should happen. But Oleg and Scali would probably be fired in any other sport.

 

[TontoK]

If you go back and watch old programs for Virtue/Moir and Davis White etc. you can see how inspired some of the choreography coming out of Zoueva's camp used to be — and I totally agree with you that it has become largely bland and uninteresting (with the exception of a couple of the Shibs short dances (the last two years), which I thought were some of the best in the field. Zoueva, or whoever is taking charge of the choreo (I know it used to be her) still manages to hit the musical highlights pretty well at times (timing the Shibs twizzles), but it's the in-betweens (all of the step sequences, and you know, the dancing) that have become rote and hum-drum. I find myself with little memory of the steps afterwards. Which is in contrast to what Marie-France and her team and the choreographers they're using are doing.

This is an interesting, and IMO spot on post.

D/W and V/M always had WOW! programs. I just haven't seen anything very interesting from Marina's camp in a while. ColdPlay was good, but did we need two more programs just like it?

It may (or may not) have something to do with the quality of skaters Marina's working with. I'm not saying the Shibs are scrubs, but they could never hold a candle to D/W or V/M. and they still haven't reached that level.

 

[Matt K]

I still cannot get over the fact that the 2 most anti-V/M ice dance judges were actually drawn at the Olympics in SD and FD and that V/M won in spite of this. US judge, Sharon Rogers, and the Chinese judge. These two exact same judges gave V/M shockingly low marks in the 2017 4CC FD during their undefeated 2016-2017 season which was the best skated FD they performed all year and set a new SB. In that event which V/M won handily, according to the US judge Sharon Rogers, V/M have worse skating skills and PCS than Shibutanis, Chock/Bates and Hubbell/Donohue. And if you were to think this was bad, consider the same Chinese judge who actually gave V/M worse PCS and Skating Skills marks than Shibutanis, Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donohue, and Weaver/Poje. That is ludicrous and insulting. Apparently V/M are worse skaters than W/P, Chock/Bates, Shibutanis, and H/D. This is actually a very serious matter though and should be investigated.

While there was no French judge in the Olympic FD, even if she were hypothetically substituted in, one of the existing judges would have to be taken out. Had this judge to be taken out was the Chinese or US, the overall result may not even change, given the shockingly anti-V/M crusade by the US judge and this particular Chinese judge, Tianyi Zhang.

Funny enough though, no other Chinese judge marks V/M so low as to put them beneath H/D, Shibs, W/P, and Chock/Bates like what was seen at Four Continents in 2017. This particular Chinese judge, along with US judge Sharon Rogers, should be investigated in my opinion. I remember when one judge at the 2011 Four Continents gave V/M 5s in PCS across the board (including 5's in skating skills) and put them in 8th or 9th place behind several Chinese couples. In this event, V/M finished 1st in the segment.

Incompetent judging, or dishonest judging, is making this discipline an embarrassment.

 

[Matt K]

Despite P/C supposedly having the "better" SD, and despite the fact that major parts of V/M's FD had to be overhauled with respect to music and choreography after the GPF, it is very impressive that V/M still managed to win the Olympics and score so high even without testing these changes in international competition before the Olympics. They debuted the new program internationally only at the team event at the Olympics, and one week later, competed a second time at the individual event where they again changed the version of the rotational lift.

If V/M had kept the same version of Moulin Rouge at the Olympics as they did all season long, they would probably have been in better shape and would be seen in a more positive light in the eyes of the judges.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

This is an interesting, and IMO spot on post.

D/W and V/M always had WOW! programs. I just haven't seen anything very interesting from Marina's camp in a while. ColdPlay was good, but did we need two more programs just like it?

It may (or may not) have something to do with the quality of skaters Marina's working with. I'm not saying the Shibs are scrubs, but they could never hold a candle to D/W or V/M. and they still haven't reached that level.

You mean two programs, not "two more" programs. The most interesting thing Zueva has done has been for Muramoto/Reed and the Shibs' SDs in 2015-2016 and 2017-2018. The Shibs SD last season was worked heavily with Hokuto Konishi and Aye Hasegawa. The Shibs had to sort of go on their own for their FDs because I think it's clear Marina doesn't know what to do with them. Oh well, general audiences ate up their programs which is what the Shibs were going for and they have been highly successful with them as they know the Olympic audiences were different and they gave the people what they knew would garner the most positive reaction. I think they can improve as well, if they stay in, but I would like for Alex and Maia to work with an ice dance choreographer on the regular who has a more heavy hand in their choreography and direction of their programs so Alex and Maia don't have to work so hard on their own (with Marina "finishing") to make programs that highlight their strengths.