2021 Worlds: Men's FS "Thoughts and Observations"

[eppen]

To clarify, the reason so many of us will go to our graves stating that was clean, was because just two skaters before, Adam Rippon's much worse 4T was called clean by the same panel. So if they were going to call Rippon's clean, then Jason's was clean; if Jason's was under, then Rippon's should have been called under.

Sorry to continue on a tangent that took a life of its own almost. But I still say it is better to talk about these as they were called and add then what you think of it instead of presenting the fan's version as fact. Might hurt to have to put it into writing, but saves a lot in unnecessary discussion. (Re: Javier Fernández's third to last quad in competition in his last Europeans in 2019 - it was not UR even if the tech panel called it that.)

Upgrades in tech content usually do take a bit of time before they become routine, especially under stress of competitions. If Hanyu wanted to add the fifth quad, I would maybe have expected to see it already here. He has been doing four quads and two 3As for quite some time now and it works most times. What I was also wondering were the missing toe jumps - no flips or lutzes in sight. A lone 3F or 3Lz instead of a 3Lo would have added a little bit to his BV plus removed possible REP problems should he have popped the 4Lo before it. Is he having problems with his feet again? The last time toe jumps disappeared was when the ankle injury was bothering him.

In addition, the harsh judgement on Daniel Grassl posted somewhere above - I completely agree. He also has not gotten any better in the last couple of years which is sad.

E

 

[KiraraChin]

Ashtmatic here. Regardless whether Yuzu's asthma attack was before or after the free skate (I've seen it translated both ways), asthma is not like a switch that flips on and off, there's often a period of build up and it can take a while for the symptoms to go fully away, even with medication. So, if his symptoms were triggered around the time of the free skate, regardless of when the attack actually occurred, he almost certainly was affected by them IMO.

This is not surprising because asthma can be triggered by stress, and being in an unsafe environment, around people without masks, must have been really stressful for him (I would certainly be stressed).

I'm not saying this to discredit Nathan or Yuma, just trying to give a better insight of Yuzu's conditions. I think being able to skate and jump while feeling asthma symptoms is beyond incredible, it's almost superhuman. Although I hope it doesn't happen again

 

[karne]

that’s not how it works, Jason’s QS was short. End of the story.

??? I'm not arguing it wasn't? In fact, I called it short real time - it was incredibly obvious. I love Jason but it was short. Nevertheless it was a severe upgrade on most other attempts, and was a clear, confident one-foot.

But nope apparently Vincent is the only skater who's ever done this. Crucify him and eject him from the sport! That's what he's haters want isn't it?

Man, you've gotten wildly defensive of Zhou. You should have noticed, if you bothered to take the time to read, that my reply was in context of CSG claiming that Hanyu was the "only" skater "making an excuse" for his poor performance. So I noted to CSG that, actually, that wasn't the case.

But more seriously, on this occasion Zhou's failure to perform - due to the undisclosed injury - has affected more than just himself, it has affected his team. You don't think that warrants a little bit of irritation?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

??? I'm not arguing it wasn't? In fact, I called it short real time - it was incredibly obvious. I love Jason but it was short. Nevertheless it was a severe upgrade on most other attempts, and was a clear, confident one-foot.

Man, you've gotten wildly defensive of Zhou. You should have noticed, if you bothered to take the time to read, that my reply was in context of CSG claiming that Hanyu was the "only" skater "making an excuse" for his poor performance. So I noted to CSG that, actually, that wasn't the case.

But more seriously, on this occasion Zhou's failure to perform - due to the undisclosed injury - has affected more than just himself, it has affected his team. You don't think that warrants a little bit of irritation?

Point to note: I did not say Hanyu was making any excuses (he doesn't typically make excuses for poor skates as you said) - but as you put it, some of his followers will establish/cling to any and all reasons for a poor performance. I should also stress that many of them do accept that he just had an off-day and are good sports about it... it's just annoying (even if expected) to see the ones who equate perfection with being in good health, and get dismayed at anything less than that... "OMG he stepped out of a jump, is he not healthy?!?!?!" or the plethora of "OMG he's looking pale..." comments - like, come on, maybe tweak the color balance/brightness/saturation on your monitor. But I know as soon as one person says it, others also are eager to jump on it to shape the narrative "justifying" his loss.

In Zhou's case, I don't really see it as an excuse per se, but maybe because he's not one to consistently declare injuries/health issues when competing. Whereas in the case of other athletes it's like a "Oh, here we go again... reasons A, B, C why they lost other than simply having an off day..." sorta deal (although that tends to be fuelled more by fans/media, and not the skaters themselves making excuses).

All tea, karne: it's also no secret that you've got a longstanding axe to grind against Vincent, so I think regardless of how well or poorly he did you'd be irritated. Even if Zhou made the FS and was 24th, you'd be crowing how Brown "saved" the US men and maintained the 3rd spot, and likely draw comparisons to Aaron stepping up a couple years ago when Zhou bombed his FS at Worlds.

I do agree Zhou's failure to disclose the injury is an issue - but do we know when it was sustained? Would there have been time for the 1st alt to show up?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

He also said he trained and thought he'd be able to compete, like countless skaters before him and countless skaters will do after him.

We could sit here and make a list of every one of them too.

But nope apparently Vincent is the only skater who's ever done this. Crucify him and eject him from the sport! That's what he's haters want isn't it?

People can try to crucify Zhou from the sport or whatever, but he's still a World bronze medalist - which nobody can take away - and did well to get 2nd at Nationals and Skate America this year.

I'm sure he'll bounce back from this. And unlike say the Russian ladies, it's not like he's expendable. There isn't really a US man who is so consistent or technically ahead or on par with Zhou (maybe Paniot) that the fed would automatically dump Zhou for a poor result.

Let's be honest - people who cancel Zhou for this result were really never a fan of him to begin with. Meh.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sorry to continue on a tangent that took a life of its own almost. But I still say it is better to talk about these as they were called and add then what you think of it instead of presenting the fan's version as fact. Might hurt to have to put it into writing, but saves a lot in unnecessary discussion. (Re: Javier Fernández's third to last quad in competition in his last Europeans in 2019 - it was not UR even if the tech panel called it that.)

Upgrades in tech content usually do take a bit of time before they become routine, especially under stress of competitions. If Hanyu wanted to add the fifth quad, I would maybe have expected to see it already here. He has been doing four quads and two 3As for quite some time now and it works most times. What I was also wondering were the missing toe jumps - no flips or lutzes in sight. A lone 3F or 3Lz instead of a 3Lo would have added a little bit to his BV plus removed possible REP problems should he have popped the 4Lo before it. Is he having problems with his feet again? The last time toe jumps disappeared was when the ankle injury was bothering him.

In addition, the harsh judgement on Daniel Grassl posted somewhere above - I completely agree. He also has not gotten any better in the last couple of years which is sad.

E

Maybe he just elected not to do them because his flip tends to get an edge call and his lutz isn't as consistent/easy for him to execute compared to a loop? He said himself he much prefers edge jumps.

Also given the pattern going into his 3L (middle of the ice) and his usual lutz setup I think he could have only replaced the 3L with a flip, but because of the potential edge call, he opted for a loop. It really isn't worth the extra 0.4 BV or whatever if he gets a ! and the GOE is reduced because of it.

 

[ice coverage]

But more seriously, on this occasion Zhou's failure to perform - due to the undisclosed injury ...

I do agree Zhou's failure to disclose the injury is an issue ...

What kind of "disclosure" are you guys talking about???

AFAIK, there is no evidence that Vincent did not "disclose" his injury to USFS.
It's entirely possible that before Worlds, Vincent did -- privately -- notify USFS of his injury.

And a skater has no obligation to make *public* "disclosure" of injury before competition -- I mean disclosure in an interview or on social media.
As I have said elsewhere, my understanding is that at least some skaters believe that it is unwise to make public disclosure of injury before competition -- because judges then will be looking for mistakes/weaknesses caused by the injury.

---

He should have just blamed it on boot problems which is a regular reason for poor performance that gets floated out.

I think you are recommending that a skater with no boot problems make a fabricated claim of boot problems?

If that is what you meant, I hope that no skater ever would be so dishonorable.

(Lest anyone wonder: Vincent did not make a claim of boot problems. I am not/not/not saying that he fabricated anything.)

---

I'm so happy that Aleksandr Selevko had a good free skate ... 15th in FS, which moved him up to 16th place overall.
Plus he earned an OWG spot for Estonia!
(16th place is high enough that there is no uncertainty re Estonia's OWG spot.)

And I'm thrilled for Yuma Kagiyama. Many congratulations to him.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What kind of "disclosure" are you guys talking about???

AFAIK, there is no evidence that Vincent did not "disclose" his injury to USFS.
It's entirely possible that before Worlds, Vincent did -- privately -- notify USFS of his injury.

And a skater has no obligation to make *public* "disclosure" of injury before competition -- I mean disclosure in an interview or on social media.
As I have said elsewhere, my understanding is that at least some skaters believe that it is unwise to make public disclosure of injury before competition -- because judges then will be looking for mistakes/weaknesses caused by the injury.

---

I'm so happy that Aleksandr Selevko had a good free skate ... 15th in FS, which moved him up to 16th place overall.
Plus he earned an OWG spot for Estonia!
(16th place is high enough that there is no uncertainty re Estonia's OWG spot.)

And I'm thrilled for Yuma Kagiyama. Many congratulations to him.

Agreed! If there's any "positive" to Zhou not making the FS it's that Selevko was able to squeeze in there, join the 4Z club in the FS, and win an Olympic spot for his country.

 

[eppen]

Maybe he just elected not to do them because his flip tends to get an edge call and his lutz isn't as consistent/easy for him to execute compared to a loop? He said himself he much prefers edge jumps.

Also given the pattern going into his 3L (middle of the ice) and his usual lutz setup I think he could have only replaced the 3L with a flip, but because of the potential edge call, he opted for a loop. It really isn't worth the extra 0.4 BV or whatever if he gets a ! and the GOE is reduced because of it.

Hmm, the only unclear edge or proper edge call on flip or lutz in the past 5 years I could find was the flip ! in 4CC 2020 and then with growing frequency going backwards in time, mostly pre 2015 though. None whatsoever with his lutzes. And the loop has been there only when he has not been able to do the lutz/flip. Patterns can be adjusted easily enough and anyways, triples Hanyu should be able to do from just about any kind of entry pattern/steps/etc. So, I am still wondering.

E

 

[Olympic]

OK

First of all, let me get my depressions out of the way -

#1 - Boyang: I predicted a top 6 finish for him but he had a bad competition which is a shame. It also costed CHN a spot for the Olympics. I love his 4Z when its clean. According to TSL, I understood that he is going to the Cricket Club (?) Maybe that will make some difference. I don't necessarily believe coaching changes work wonders but maybe Orser / Wilson can tighten up his jumps and give him better SS outside of the jumps.

#2 - Zhou: I didn't even bother to watch his Worlds SP because that would've been painful. His skate at Nationals would've put him in the medal mix. Another shame. I hope he heals and comes back next year. The US may want him for Nebelhorn to secure that 3rd spot for the Olympics

------

Chen - Best performance ever. Well-deserved win. If I had to nit-pick, I would say that Nathan (1) should hold his arms more taut while skating between elements; (2) Get more pop on the 1st Camel-switch-Camel. That by itself would add something greater to his already great skating (There already is a lot there). But who knows. Any adjustments might affect his ability to execute perfect jumps. Next year, I wonder if he will want to go for 6 quads and add the 4R, or maybe stick w/ 5 quads. He is far ahead of everyone right now.

Kagiyama - Future of skating once Chen and Hanyu depart competitive life. I have no criticisms. He is 110% of what a new star should be. I speculate that he might go after harder jumps for an Olympic year: 4Z or 4F. If he is successful in that endeavor, I think he is solid #2 and will chase someone like Nathan.

Hanyu - It was a mediocre skate by his standards. I like Asian-themed music from Yuzu but this piece didn't do too much for me. I would like to see him come back next year firing on all cylinders, and it would be great to see him go after a 4Z again if he could and once again be the primary challenger to Nathan. If anyone can come back, it is him.

Uno - I predicted that he would be 3rd. He looks happy skating these days and it was nice to see him land the 4F as well as his other quads. I think he is 90% of who he was at his peak. However, it looks like he might be #3 JPN these days just because of Kagiyama. JPN is re-emerging at the #1 country for men and Uno has to turn it out to stay relevant.

Kolyada - His SS are second to none and his consistency has improved, but I thought he'd be closer to the medal. I predicted he would be 4th but in a fight for the Bronze. It still looks like he suffers some inconsistencies, and I don't know at this point if he will be jumping anything harder than a 4T on a consistent level. He is 27, so I am not expecting a huge jump in the ranks from him next year mostly due to Kagiyama, but also if he doesn't have it at this point, I don't know if it will ever come. Glad to see RUS get 3 spots. The #3 RUS man will contribute to the competition next year.

Messing - He can be anywhere from 5th - 20th, and I'm glad he was closer to the former than the latter. Great knees and big jumps. So happy he got CAN 2 spots (conditionally). I really don't like Rock, Metal or Folk music programs, so that distracted me from enjoying his LP.

Brown - Bravo on the 4S. Yes. It was UR but everything else was good about that jump. If you didn't have a caller, it would've looked fine to the untrained eye. He was so solid and performed so well as US #2 after Zhou's implosion. He did double a 3T on the back of his 3F and that lost him a few points. I really wonder if he can get a consistent quad and move up in the standings. That would be the story of the next season, because his SS are so great that a quad would just elevate him higher.

Semenenko - Good job from Semenenko on getting Team RUS 3 spots. Yes. He had a paint-by-the-numbers LP but what do you expect from a teen? This is a solid base from him to grow from and he has a bigger quad selection than teammate Kolyada.

Aymoz - And congrats to him for getting FRA 2 spots. He moves beautifully across the ice and jumps straight up nice and straight. So aesthetically pleasing and expressive. He went for 2 4Ts and didn't quite get the last one but good to see him go for it. Happy to see him skating well again because just before the pandemic, he was disastrous at Euros.

Cha - Not quite his best but good enough to gain KOR 2 spots. He skates a little 'bigger' these days and has more presence on the ice.

Rizzo - Rizzo also went for it w/ 2 4Ts and fought for those program but he was not quite at his best. I give these skaters a lot of leeway due to the pandemic this season.

Grassl - He's ambitious and has unique musical taste. But, the ambitious arsenal of jumps doesn't quite work. He needs more energy, speed and consistency. I can see why he lags the bigger players. Still he has undeniable talent.

Yan - Really lovely PCS and edge quality. I enjoyed watching him even if I hate La La Land. At this point, his hardest jump is the 3A so I believe he must continue skating for the sheer pleasure of it, not necessarily to challenge the top.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Agreed! If there's any "positive" to Zhou not making the FS it's that Selevko was able to squeeze in there, join the 4Z club in the FS, and win an Olympic spot for his country.

Aleksandr S is such an interesting skater. He was one of my favorites in the sp. The fact that he was initially cut from the fp is criminal. It just speaks of how inadequate the competitive structure and scoring system is in this sport.

The fact that Aleksandr skated so well in the fp and moved up is a testament to his talent, and to the reality that the scoring system/ judging stinks. I was sorry for Vincent Zhou, but happy that Aleksandr had the chance to move forward and to show his fp. He moved above other skaters rightly with his talent. He had a few miscues in the sp, but nothing that should have garnered him being cut. I think the judges didn't give Aleksandr enough credit for what he did in the sp, because they often hold back on scores in the early going.

In the early group, I also enjoyed watching Valtter Virtanen of Finland. I learned a lot about his background from Mark Hanretty's commentary. It was cool having Hanretty doing the commentating on Peacock. He was sooo good, and so effortless, and so knowledgeable. I really hope Hanretty will be contracted to do the secondary feed commentary for the Olympics! My fingers and toes are crossed for that. I love Hanretty's accent, and his commentating skills, which are so refreshing. I learned a great deal about all of the skaters, which made the event more enjoyable.

The sport needs to find new ways of presenting opportunities for skaters to compete and to improve. This cutting them off from advancing is not a good system. They should probably still be able to perform their fps, even if in a separate, secondary, non-televised format.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Kagiyama - Future of skating once Chen and Hanyu depart competitive life. I have no criticisms. He is 110% of what a new star should be. I speculate that he might go after harder jumps for an Olympic year: 4Z or 4F. If he is successful in that endeavor, I think he is solid #2 and will chase someone like Nathan.

Thanks for sharing your rundown. In general, I agree with your assessments. Yuma Kagiyama is quite lovely and very talented. He's amazing. Yet, I didn't enjoy his fp that much in comparison to some of the other top skaters, including Kolyada, Shoma, Chen, Keegan, Jason, Aymoz, and Jun Hwan Cha. I think Yuma had a more interesting fp last season. This one is okay, but it's not a stand out. Plus, he had errors in the fp, which for me makes his silver less convincing. I know Yuma is amazingly good, but some of his high scores was the judges' reverence for the talent they know he possesses. Although I don't have completely strong objections re the scoring outcome, I tend to feel that Hanyu skated so poorly in the fp that if he wasn't Hanyu, he wouldn't have stayed in bronze position. I realize that Hanyu's sp helped him maintain the podium.

It's really too bad that Kolyada made several minor mistakes at the end of his program. He started out so beautifully. Kolyada let himself down, because he could have been on the podium with a clean skate. Also, of course, Kolyada needs more quads as scoring weapons.

For the strength of their free programs coupled with their amazing talent, I wish Shoma and Kolyada had reached the podium, with Yuma in 4th or 5th. He has the future ahead of him, and he wasn't stellar in the fp. I also feel that Jason Brown deserves even higher PCS scores for his exquisite abilities. Hanyu has an excellent sp, but the fp is like a retread of Seimei, and when not skated well, it's just flat for me.

Nathan is simply a man apart in this fp! He never ceases to amaze with how he continues to grow and to build on his excellence, even amidst adversity. In fact, adversity often brings out his best, which is the mark of a champion.

An entire thread could be about the stellar quality of Nathan's fp, and his competitive fire. I'll have to come back later to discuss. There's so much to digest. I haven't even finished looking at the ladies fp. And I'm too disgusted with ice dance politics to even look at any of the ice dance competition.

 

[ice coverage]

Aleksandr S is such an interesting skater. He was one of my favorites in the sp. The fact that he was initially cut from the fp is criminal.

... He had a few miscues in the sp, but nothing that should have garnered him being cut. ...

Am I (as a fan of Aleksandr Selevko ) the only one who finds your wording of "initially cut" from the free skate to be odd?
When the SP competition still is in progress, I do not consider someone without a Q to have been "cut" until it is literally impossible (based on the number of entries who have not yet skated) for him to gain a Q.

In the skate order for the SP, Selevko was #18 (out of 33). He made a costly mistake, and his SP score was below his best. Immediately after his score was announced, seven previous men had scored below him.
Immediately after Skater #21's score was announced, nine men had scored below Selevko, meaning that he would finish no lower than 24th and had qualified for the free skate.

For me: It is not that Selevko ever was "cut" from the free skate. It is that his status re possible qualification for the free skate was hanging in the balance until after Skater #21.

 

[tafattsbarn]

I'm surprised to see that people here aren't vibin' with Yuzu's music choice for the fs.

It's one of my favorite music pieces he's ever skated to, and the program is just magical when skated well (like at jnats). I think it's a perfect program for Yuzu's style of skating. It really brings out that collected, strong and introverted style that is synonymous with his skating.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Am I (as a fan of Aleksandr Selevko ) the only one who finds your wording of "initially cut" from the free skate to be odd?
When the SP competition still is in progress, I do not consider someone without a Q to have been "cut" until it is literally impossible (based on the number of entries who have not yet skated) for him to gain a Q.

In the skate order for the SP, Selevko was #18 (out of 33). He made a costly mistake, and his SP score was below his best. Immediately after his score was announced, seven previous men had scored below him.
Immediately after skater #21's score was announced, nine men had scored below Selevko, meaning that he would finish no lower than 24th and had qualified for the free skate.

For me: It is not that Selevko ever was "cut" from the free skate. It is that his qualification status for the free skate was hanging in the balance until after skater #21.

Yeah sure, it's all semantics and so the wording I chose to describe the situation apparently doesn't align with what you and others seem to prefer. That's as it may be, which doesn't negate my opinions about the poor way the ingrained competitive structure and scoring system is set up.

Indeed, the possibility of Aleksandr advancing to the fp was definitely in danger, because he received scores that were in a range which placed his advancement in nail-biting doubt. At a certain point, the skaters who remained to compete were on paper certainly expected to receive higher scores, based on their talent and prior competitive history. But of course, ice is slippery, each event is unpredictable, and anything can happen. Before Vincent Zhou came up to skate, it unfortunately appeared that Aleksandr might be in danger of not qualifying. In fact, had Vincent not bombed his sp, Aleksandr would have remained in the position just below the final qualifier, i.e., just below the qualifying cut off limit. Of course, it's never over until it's over, or as Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over till the fat lady sings!" In any case, none of this is news for anyone who followed the competition.

Thanks for your perspicacity and for your semantic precision.

Meanwhile, yay yay yay to Aleksandr Selevko! I look forward to enjoying more of his creativity and his expressive performances.

 

[Ophelia]

I'm surprised to see that people here aren't vibin' with Yuzu's music choice for the fs.

It's one of my favorite music pieces he's ever skated to, and the program is just magical when skated well (like at jnats). I think it's a perfect program for Yuzu's style of skating, it really brings out that collected, strong and introverted style that is synonymous with his skating.

Maybe we need more Asian posters.

 

[Skatesocs]

Maybe we need more Asian posters.

I'm Asian, and I didn't like his program. The music is nice, the choreography can be improved. I don't particularly subscribe to this collectivist viewpoint, unfortunately.

 

[karne]

Aleksandr S is such an interesting skater. He was one of my favorites in the sp. The fact that he was initially cut from the fp is criminal. It just speaks of how inadequate the competitive structure and scoring system is in this sport.

What? Selevko was never cut. There was a period he didn't have a Q next to his name meaning he wasn't guaranteed to progress, but he was never actually cut. Because nobody is actually cut until the short program ends.

 

[LutzDance]

I don't know how much asthma could account for Yuzu's performance in the free skate. We've seen him skating through concussion and injuries, and while he might make one mistake after another he'd still give it a fight. The Yuzu I saw on Saturday just didn't look like a man on a mission. Maybe because he was so distracted, his program didn't leave much impression on me (also Asian here). Having said all this I still respect his longevity and ability to stay among the tops after so many years in the ring, and looking forward to seeing what he brings to the table in the Olympic season.

I, as many posters here, enjoyed the diversity in the men's field. The top seven men each has something to offer: from broadway to ballet, from rock-and-roll to minimalism. And there were actually fewer falls among the top guys than among the top ladies at this event! When has that ever happened? (Ok I know the ladies' event at this Worlds was a bit unfortunate, but still.) And of course, super proud that my boy Nathan had the skate of his life right there. I've always thought that he is a master of short programs but hasn't left a free skate that's both sparkling clean and channels his very own introspective and authentic musicality. Have to say his free skate remedies that pretty well and lights up the entire Worlds event for me. However, as much as I’m delighted with his win, I would’ve been more excited if he’d won against a cleaner Yuzu. Let’s see what happens at the showdown between these two at the WTT.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Yuzuru's programme is quite specifically Japanese-themed, so being another sort of Asian I didn't particularly identify with it.
I like it a lot though, hope he recycles it for next season and cleans it up a bit. It's more interesting than the usual generic pseudo-Asian warhorses (Memoirs of a Geisha, Madame Butterfly, Miss Saigon, Turandot etc.)

Kudos to most of the top men for having pretty creative music choices. This almost makes up for Freddie Mercury's invasion of the Russian Cup series.