2021 Worlds: Men's FS "Thoughts and Observations"

[skylark]

This is an interesting page of comments, thanks everyone.

It makes me think of something in the TSL wrap-up of Worlds. They said that in their interview with Elvis Stojko, he'd told them that when he finally managed to make a correction in his foot position (I think it was in the camel spin, but I'm not sure) -- something so many had complained about -- he was never able to land a quad toe again. Something about, it opened up his hips, which made his 4T suffer. So, the idea was, be careful what you work so hard to correct.

Nathan has such a good sense of his capabilities and priorities; I don't mean he might be swayed. But to me, it was just an interesting comment, that not every "flaw" in someone's skating or technique would be worth the sacrifice of correcting it.

 

[Olympic]

This is an interesting page of comments, thanks everyone.

It makes me think of something in the TSL wrap-up of Worlds. They said that in their interview with Elvis Stojko, he'd told them that when he finally managed to make a correction in his foot position (I think it was in the camel spin, but I'm not sure) -- something so many had complained about -- he was never able to land a quad toe again. Something about, it opened up his hips, which made his 4T suffer. So, the idea was, be careful what you work so hard to correct.

Nathan has such a good sense of his capabilities and priorities; I don't mean he might be swayed. But to me, it was just an interesting comment, that not every "flaw" in someone's skating or technique would be worth the sacrifice of correcting it.

Even if I noted the spin could be better, I did qualify myself in an earlier post that small corrections might throw off Nathan's tech / even screw up his mindset on the quads ... Obviously his team is the most knowledgeable and I'm just an armchair critic.

 

[skylark]

Even if I noted the spin could be better, I did qualify myself in an earlier post that small corrections might throw off Nathan's tech / even screw up his mindset on the quads ... Obviously his team is the most knowledgeable and I'm just an armchair critic.

That's interesting. Unfortunately, I didn't read the earlier pages in this thread (they sometimes degrade into back and forth, and picking apart scores, imo). I'm sorry in this case that I didn't see your earlier post. It's a perfect expression of what I was thinking about.

I wasn't targeting your posts or anyone else's. I should have made that more clear. I was just interested in the fact that it was a conversation going on, and the whole idea reminded me of what Dave Lease said, to back up his idea that any skater might oughta be careful about what they try to correct. It might mess something up that is one of their bright spots, as in the example of Elvis. Again, I'm repeating what he said Elvis told them in his long interview and I haven't listened to it, so this qualifies as hearsay.

Dave also said that Tara Lipinski had told him once that she wasn't really a "spread eagle" person, because she was afraid that if she practiced it day after day, she'd have less "snap" to her jumps (because it would open her hips up). One reason I'm bold enough to repeat this is that it sort of rings true with what I know of Tara. She had an extraordinary intuitive grasp of what she needed in her skating and what she didn't. She did respond to criticism, though ... she hired a top choreographer, Sandra Bezic, and apparently even the week of Nagano Olympics she was asking Sandra to give her notes from the practices, and working on whatever Sandra said.

 

[LutzDance]

I don't get the ppl who claim that they don't see Nathan's balletic background when I see it in his posture and his wonderfully pointed toes that's not there in many so called balletic skaters.

Also look at his hyperextended knees and that turnout! They are evident in his spread eagle, but also in all the smallest things he does. I always love watching his free leg because it's so neatly controlled.

 

[1111bm]

I was at Skate America that year, and both Jason and Adam performed some amazingly beautiful programs. Jason landed the quad in his free skate, but I don't think the judges expected him to land it that easily, so apparently they knee-jerk thought it must have been under-rotated. The problem is the judges don't always have good camera angles to make these crucial judgements. Plus, they are usually harsher in judging skaters who haven't shown proven consistency on quads.

I would love to see Jason land a fully rotated quad though.

What constitutes a fully rotated jump isn't exactly a constant though, unless of course a jump is clearly landed within less than a quarter.

As far as I remember Jason's quad at SA looked like it was landed right on the quarter (as always impossible to tell what it might've looked like live, when most videos have such low frame rate). Back then this would (or should) have been called rotated, a few seasons ago they changed the rules and it would've been considered under-rotated and now that's a 'q'.

He tends to 'flop' over to the other foot in his 1st spin, the Camel-change-Camel. It would improve dramatically if he could 'pop' instead of 'flop'.

It's not supposed to be like a butterfly jump though, which I would actually prefer, like the one Nathan does in his sit spin in the short program to change feet. Can't recall if I've seen a skater do that to change feet within a camel though? Misha does the same change of foot by jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxCDAEtf2Mk&t=86s

I guess it would look visually more appealing if the free leg was swung around a bit higher, like in a regular flying camel entry, but not sure this is as feasible starting from a forward camel position?

I agree Nathan's spins are fast and well-centered. His spin positions are generally okay, but the leg line in his camel position isn't particularly the best. IOW, not classically perfect.

I don't think Nathan's spins are subpar and ugly as I see many regularly claim (not in this recent discussion mind you). It's just that he's not amongst the absolute fastest spinners out there/doesn't have any spin position where he achieves remarkable speed.

And he doesn't do any trademark or noteworthy or uncommon-in-men's positions, such as Roman's or Yuzu's donut spin, Jason's (non-cross) grab catchfoot camel, Adam's layback, Shoma's or Stephane's headless spin, Deniss' sit, Daniel's and Kevin's putting-their-foot-over-their-head-sit/intermediate...
So I think Nathan would benefit most from finding and perfecting an interesting position, sth. that makes one of his spins stand out more and more memorable.

The only actual flaws I see are, that he should definitely work on more speed in his camel spin and he has a bad habit of allowing his free leg to 'droop' in his forward camel position (doesn't happen in his back camel though for some reason).
But then his skating leg is always beautifully straight in his camel positions and he doesn't drop his free leg/knee when he's reaching to grab the blade, so that's two big pluses in my book (and god knows how many skaters don't do either one or both of those two things, and it really ruins any camel spin for me).

 

[Olympic]

That's interesting. Unfortunately, I didn't read the earlier pages in this thread (they sometimes degrade into back and forth, and picking apart scores, imo). I'm sorry in this case that I didn't see your earlier post. It's a perfect expression of what I was thinking about.

I wasn't targeting your posts or anyone else's. I should have made that more clear. I was just interested in the fact that it was a conversation going on, and the whole idea reminded me of what Dave Lease said, to back up his idea that any skater might oughta be careful about what they try to correct. It might mess something up that is one of their bright spots, as in the example of Elvis. Again, I'm repeating what he said Elvis told them in his long interview and I haven't listened to it, so this qualifies as hearsay.

Dave also said that Tara Lipinski had told him once that she wasn't really a "spread eagle" person, because she was afraid that if she practiced it day after day, she'd have less "snap" to her jumps (because it would open her hips up). One reason I'm bold enough to repeat this is that it sort of rings true with what I know of Tara. She had an extraordinary intuitive grasp of what she needed in her skating and what she didn't. She did respond to criticism, though ... she hired a top choreographer, Sandra Bezic, and apparently even the week of Nagano Olympics she was asking Sandra to give her notes from the practices, and working on whatever Sandra said.

Oh no. Don't worry. I was more thinking out loud than anything else

 

[shine]

It's not supposed to be like a butterfly jump though, which I would actually prefer, like the one Nathan does in his sit spin in the short program to change feet. Can't recall if I've seen a skater do that to change feet within a camel though? Misha does the same change of foot by jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxCDAEtf2Mk&t=86s

I guess it would look visually more appealing if the free leg was swung around a bit higher, like in a regular flying camel entry, but not sure this is as feasible starting from a forward camel position?
...
The only actual flaws I see are, that he should definitely work on more speed in his camel spin and he has a bad habit of allowing his free leg to 'droop' in his forward camel position (doesn't happen in his back camel though for some reason).

I don’t think the Olympic was referring so much to the amplitude of the swing of the legs as they were about the the “fly” Nathan gets when he switches legs. At about 2:05 in the video here you can see how Denis gets an actual pop instead of just “flopping” over:

2014 Olympics Men SP 26 TEN Denis KAZ

youtu.be

Mikhail also has a better pop in his when he switches foot. The lack of fly in Nathan’s change foot camel is actually a long time pet peeve of mine, same with flying camels that don’t fly

 

[1111bm]

I don’t think the Olympic was referring so much to the amplitude of the swing of the legs as they were about the the “fly” Nathan gets when he switches legs. At about 2:05 in the video here you can see how Denis gets an actual pop instead of just “flopping” over:

2014 Olympics Men SP 26 TEN Denis KAZ

youtu.be

Mikhail also has a better pop in his when he switches foot. The lack of fly in Nathan’s change foot camel is actually a long time pet peeve of mine, same with flying camels that don’t fly

Now I don't know if the 'pop' could be achieved either way, but just by comparing those three skaters, the magnitude of the 'pop' actually seems to correlate with the height of the free leg when it's swung around. Misha's free leg goes slightly higher than Nathan's and Denis' is the highest of the three, and looks the most like a typical flying entry, and he also has the best 'pop'.

But either way, it is generally not the most visually appealing feature to me and as already mentioned, I'd rather see a butterfly jump to change feet. But then butterfly jumps are one of my most favourite moves, and if I could get my way, skaters would be doing them as often as possible, so preferably twice per spin.

 

[karne]

Nathan certainly had an issue with his "flying" camel as recently as a couple of years ago, where it was definitely a step-over and not a true fly. I remember watching IdF 2018 and it was so bad there that I remember thinking I'd seen better attempts at Elementary level comps. He does seem to have fixed it though.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don't think Nathan's spins are subpar and ugly as I see many regularly claim (not in this recent discussion mind you). It's just that he's not amongst the absolute fastest spinners out there/doesn't have any spin position where he achieves remarkable speed.

Right, Nathan's spins are not at all ugly. It's just that spinning is not his strongest suit. No one can be perfect at every single thing in skating. Yeah, Nathan is not an awful spinner. He's worked on his spins and he's above average, but not spectacular in terms of unique positions or extraordinary speed with brilliant centering, like Messing and Vasiljevs. But Nathan does get very good speed on his straight leg sit spin, perhaps more speed on that than he gets on his camel spin.

I think TSL's 'Hot Takes' wrap up of Worlds 2021 is interesting (after they did separate rundowns on each discipline with specific guests -- the men's rundown was with Todd Eldredge). Check out the general 'Hot Takes' wrap up where they discuss the men's results and Zhulin's comments regarding the ice dance results in connection with the men's results. SMH. Oh well, TSL has interesting things to say about the judging and the former practice of quid pro quo, which to an extent likely still exists today in some way. Old ingrained practices die hard, IOW. Which is a terrible indictment of this sport, but shrug-worthy for most fans I suppose because we are used to having no say and no sway over the often questionable practices and competitive structure of this sport. I only continue watching because I love the skaters, and a great performance can be so uplifting. Elusive but exciting and uplifting.

I'm going to link a specific section of the TSL video mentioned above in the Worldwide pairs thread...

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

With regard to the way in which he 'flops' over on the Camel, IDK why that happens because that huge martial arts kick in this choreo seq. suggests that he is flexible and capable of getting height, so it makes me wonder why he can't thrust his legs upward between the Camel spins. Anyway. Small point.

Possibly it could just be a bad habit, which is not necessarily something the judges over-scrutinize. Therefore, it is a minor issue, and Nathan obviously spends his time working on the crucial aspects of his skating (or as another poster mentioned, Nathan has worked on correcting the problem and it's not as bad as it used to be). Perhaps it can be equated to Hanyu never pointing his feet and sometimes looking down too much. Minor issues that aren't downgraded and rarely pointed out so they work on all the other important stuff, of which there's a lot to occupy them. Of course, there used to be a lot of discussion about Hanyu's lack of stretching more and pointing his feet, but no one bothers these days to keep beating that drum after all of his accomplishments.

 

[Olympic]

Possibly it could just be a bad habit, which is not necessarily something the judges over-scrutinize. Therefore, it is a minor issue, and Nathan obviously spends his time working on the crucial aspects of his skating (or as another poster mentioned, Nathan has worked on correcting the problem and it's not as bad as it used to be). Perhaps it can be equated to Hanyu never pointing his feet and sometimes looking down too much. Minor issues that aren't downgraded and rarely pointed out so they work on all the other important stuff, of which there's a lot to occupy them. Of course, there used to be a lot of discussion about Hanyu's lack of stretching more and pointing his feet, but no one bothers these days to keep beating that drum after all of his accomplishments.

Also the fact that small adjustments like fiddling with a spin might interfere with Nathan's ability to rattle off the quads

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Also the fact that small adjustments like fiddling with a spin might interfere with Nathan's ability to rattle off the quads

Yes, I agree that what Nathan does with rapping off quads, although so many of us are looking at it as 'superhuman,' requires very precise long term strategic thinking, planning, training and singular focus, to be able to successfully and consistently achieve.

Take a listen to the TSL 'Hot Takes' final recap video of 2021 Worlds where Dave and Jonathan make some interesting comments about Nathan vs Hanyu, in particular the part where they discuss how both Hanyu and Nathan tend to limit their overall approach to set themes in Hanyu's case, and to set patterns in Nathan's case. I don't always agree with TSL's commentary, but it definitely makes sense that particular stringent and focused strategies have to be followed precisely in order to train and compete quads at the highest level of championship success. Quads can be both mentally and physically draining.

This and That: 2021 World Figure Skating Championships (Hot Takes)

The 2021 World Figure Skating Championships are now in the history books and we couldn't say goodbye without giving our hot takes of the judging, the program...

youtu.be

While Nathan incorporates interesting stylistic elements and he's also skilled musically, the way he lays out and puts together his programs is surely managed around performing quads in specific locations on the ice, which is likely important to maintain efficiency and consistency. His jump technique is down pat, but deciding on the jumps and maintaining a workable, efficient jump layout within the context of the other moves and in conjunction with the musical themes is paramount. Building momentum and having an impactful ending though, is not just exclusive to a quad jumper. That's an important feature every skater should bring to their programs.

 

[Tutto]

I cut him slack on the camel since he had back injuries. Team Nathan has been great so far (knock on wood) at managing him.

I don't get the ppl who claim that they don't see Nathan's balletic background when I see it in his posture and his wonderfully pointed toes that's not there in many so called balletic skaters.

Wow, look, I've got a huge respect for Nathan, his technical prowess & mental toughness, but honestly only a very dedicated fan can see the above. His shoulders hunched that's a fact, and his toes not pointed at all, kinda painfully so -he could rival Yuna Kim in that regard, and his feet not turned out. I heard that he's got a ballet training and always was wondering about it.
If you want to see the difference watch Sasha Cohen or Mikhail Kolyada, they didn't/don't claim any ballet training but turned out feet & pointed toes are there alright for everyone to see.

 

[lurkz2]

Wow, look, I've got a huge respect for Nathan, his technical prowess & mental toughness, but honestly only a very dedicated fan can see the above. His shoulders hunched that's a fact, and his toes not pointed at all, kinda painfully so -he could rival Yuna Kim in that regard, and his feet not turned out. I heard that he's got a ballet training and always was wondering about it.
If you want to see the difference watch Sasha Cohen or Mikhail Kolyada, they didn't/don't claim any ballet training but turned out feet & pointed toes are there alright for everyone to see.

Mikhail only has the pose from the waist up, no turned out feet and pointed toes. And he doesn't have the balletic tension in the torso. While Nathan has a naturally more hunched shape to his shoulders, he always maintains the tension in his torso for balletic pieces and has more of a turnout, as can be seen in his FS.

 

[Tutto]

Mikhail only has the pose from the waist up, no turned out feet and pointed toes. And he doesn't have the balletic tension in the torso. While Nathan has a naturally more hunched shape to his shoulders, he always maintains the tension in his torso for balletic pieces and has more of a turnout, as can be seen in his FS.

If you choose to see something which is not there that's fine but you won't convince other people.

 

[lurkz2]

If you choose to see something which is not there that's fine but you won't convince other people.

We can agree to disagree but I've been watching ballet for decades and not just FS.

There's a tension in the torso Mikhail does not have, contrast it with Polunin.

Sergei Polunin, Natalia Somova - Swan Lake (10)

8.02.2014Odette / Odile: Natalia SomovaPrince Siegfried: Sergei Polunin

youtu.be

 

[TontoK]

I also saw the TSL segment about Nathan's tendency to place jumps in the same place in his LP. However, I'm not so sure that's a weakness.

I get what they (and Duhamel) mean when they talk about the choreographic limitations, but it also allows him to switch jumps out. As we've seen over the past seasons, that lets him experiment with jump layouts - swapping jumps, leaving them out, adding them in - until he has a product he's confident with.

I don't enjoy the uncertainty in the process, but it's really hard to argue with the final results. "Some of his jumping passes are in the same place" is a weak criticism when he's scoring 220+ and winning major competitions by 30 points.

 

[lurkz2]

I also saw the TSL segment about Nathan's tendency to place jumps in the same place in his LP. However, I'm not so sure that's a weakness.

I get what they (and Duhamel) mean when they talk about the choreographic limitations, but it also allows him to switch jumps out. As we've seen over the past seasons, that lets him experiment with jump layouts - swapping jumps, leaving them out, adding them in - until he has a product he's confident with.

I don't enjoy the uncertainty in the process, but it's really hard to argue with the final results. "Some of his jumping passes are in the same place" is a weak criticism when he's scoring 220+ and winning major competitions by 30 points.

There was a fan cam I noticed he places his jumps at or near corners but he used 3 corners omitting the one near the entrance/exit to the rink, maybe there's a difference in ice quality?

 

[Tutto]

We can agree to disagree but I've been watching ballet for decades and not just FS.

There's a tension in the torso Mikhail does not have, contrast it with Polunin.

Sergei Polunin, Natalia Somova - Swan Lake (10)

8.02.2014Odette / Odile: Natalia SomovaPrince Siegfried: Sergei Polunin

youtu.be

Yeah, we have to agree to disagree here. I never claimed that Mikhail is a ballet dancer though to me he is a very close, after all one cannot move on ice the same way as on hard surface, it has its advantages and its limitations too. If you watch closely the opening of White Crow there is that tension you are talking about and it did not come easy to him, here is a short film on how the program was made if you are interested:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

One can see how much of hard work went into it. Mishin & Mikhail also went to the Vaganova Academy to meet Nikolay Tsiskaridze and see the museum and all the things Nureyev there:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CGDKWr-J2lG/

Note: watch Mikhail feet here in that photo