2022-23 GPF Senior Pairs Short Program

[readernick]

What great skates by the top teams.

I thought the Americans were more powerful, and I thought the Japanese were more emotionally engaging.

A virtual tie after the short, and a LP shootout on the horizon.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I think the gap between these two and Canadians is warranted.

I agree with you 100%. The difference in the quality of the elements and skating between the top two teams and everyone else was extremely clear here.

We all like what we like so that’s subjective. However, the quality of lifts, throws, twist, and the levels given really did clearly distinguish the top two from the rest. K/F with a slight lead in TES also makes sense because they got their levels and their throws are the best in the field right now which compensated for the less than great SBS jumps.

PCS is , perhaps, where people might disagree with the results. SS wise M/K are the class of field. They are also just so likable. But, I really dislike their short program. It distracts from their good qualities. In K/F’s case, the program may not be too everyone’s liking but it is more complex and unique. IMHO it’s a nice contrast to the normal pair sappy romance programs. Anyway, I think it’s perfectly just that M/K won the SS but K/F won the composition. You could have slight disagreement about the scores but the placements are completely fair and so is the gap between 1/2 and the rest.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I disagree that Riku and Ryiuchi are only favored politically. I think judges are rewarding what they want to see in pairs figure skating when they give M/K high scores. One of those precious qualities is connection with each other and with audiences.

I didn't say that M/K are 'only' favored politically. I said they are favored politically, which is a true, fact-based statement. They are a delightful team and they have a magical quality having to do with personality, talent, great physical match, and trust in each other. The same magic happened for Calalang/ Johnson with their world-class elements. C/J's retirement is a huge loss. It's a shame that U.S. fed didn't offer incentive for them to stay together, and to find help on their sbs jumps.

I see that you think I was being condescending. Sorry that was not my intention. I was simply emphasizing that M/K and K/F are comparable and competitive teams. They are both class of the field, equal in some aspects, with strengths vs weaknesses in equal proportions. On any given day, if one team makes a mistake, the other can win over them. In SS, M/K have a slight advantage, with the soft knees Japanese skaters are known for. M/K's PCS last season were only percentage points higher in a few categories. Alexa/Brandon were ahead by a small margin in other categories. The PCS scoring has been changed to fewer categories this season.

I enjoy a lot of teams because I love pairs skating. Alexa/ Brandon are not my favorite pairs team. I simply respect them. I enjoy watching them, I admire them and I have a sentimental heart for them, having followed their careers and witnessed them going through so much and finally achieving their goals with flying colors. They were tested at 2022 Worlds and they skated lights out under difficult circumstances, which not many athletes could have managed in that unexpected pressure cooker situation. Also, this is the first time M/K placed in front of K/F, and it's by a slight margin.

No one has to like K/F. But what was said about Alexa personally in the SA thread was unbelievably wrong and so off-base. Some posters pushed back, but the person who made the comments never apologized. I heard that Alexa lost her grandmother recently. And she and Chris also lost one of their St. Bernese Mountain dogs to cancer. Alexa posted a tribute to their sweet dog on Instagram. It must have happened in the lead-up to the season or sometime around the time the season started. Hopefully, people will take a step back and understand that these athletes are human beings deserving of more respect than they are often given.

 

[moonvine]

Now watching live again. I have a problem. At the same time; should I knit, chat with you or try to progress with my secondary job (I get payed only for results and I do it only by distance).

I think we have the same job LOL

 

[NanaPat]

I watched in real time but then went out and didn't read this thread until now. My main takeaways from the competition:
an excellent skate from Conti/Macii
I felt sorry for Chan/Howe; they usually skate much better than this and have great presence on the ice
Knierim/Fraser much improved from Skate America
Muira/Kihara well-deserved leaders
Happy Stellato/Dechamps are in third

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

@skylark, I see your additional post. I'm talking about fans, some of whom don't seem to really be pairs fans, or else they are fair weather fans, who have said "pairs is dead," and they bemoan the Russians being banned. I said in another thread that for me this is an opportunity to understand how difficult pairs is, and to witness how these up-and-coming teams who are competing will develop over the next four years.

It has been a known fact that U.S. teams have been looked down on despite having a lot of depth over the past 10 years, and in the last quad having 4 U.S. teams in the top 15 and 3 in the top 10, in World Standings.

Also you and @CanadianSkaterGuy and anyone who thinks that K/F's scores are too high, are not being respectful of their talent, and of the fact that they are defending World champions. The judges are respecting them, just like they do every other World champion team. By suggesting that K/F's score was "massive," while ignoring that M/K received a 'massive' score too simply reveals that you prefer Miura/Kihara. K/F are not being over-scored in the current environment of how the judges are scoring. The scoring in fs fluctuates often, and it's often managed and manipulated. M/K had 42+ when they stopped skating, and then their tech score increased slightly before the final scores were posted

M/K have a lot of fans globally, plus are loved by many Canadians b/c they train there. They are supported by Japanese political clout, and love from the judges too, so why can't some respect by the judges be spared for the current World champions from the U.S.? Be patient all who don't like K/F. This is likely their last season. Please allow their fans to enjoy it. Many of you apparently are looking forward to M/K finally being anointed, when they couldn't be at 2022 Worlds after skating so poorly (yet still making the podium in second place!)

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

@NanaPat, Chan/Howe revealed in a recent interview that their partnership almost didn't happen because he had been experiencing recurring shoulder problems. This season it was questionable whether they would skate on the GP due to lost training time, her ankle injury and his shoulder flare-ups. They took a leap of faith. It paid off. Congrats to them for making the GPF under these circumstances. I hope they can do better in the fp.

 

[chuckm]

SD/D were slow and deliberate compared to the top two teams, and Deanna doesn't get anywhere near the amplitude on the throws that Alexa gets.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Brandon, the famous Lion King with Haven

They were seniors. It was the 2014-15 season. Haven had her nearly career-ending knee injury that off-season. Renee Roca reprised the LK program for them in 2019-20, during which they won two bronze medals on the GP. Haven/Brandon split in 2020, and Brandon paired with Alexa after Chris suddenly retired. As juniors Haven/ Brandon won 2013 World Junior championships (during which they displayed their unique circus lift -- they also excelled at the one-handed flying lift, among other lifts.

 

[moonvine]

I was disappointed in Deanna's eye shadow game. Where is the sparkly green eye shadow, Deanna?

 

[rain]

This was interesting and well skated by and large. A bit of a disaster for Chan and Howe, but everyone else skated to a high level. I didn't have a problem with the placements, but would have had Stellato-Dudeck/Dechamps closer in scores to the top two rather than the team behind them. I really like the choreography of their program, and thought they deserved more GOE on the twist, which was actually better than Alexa/Brandon's (their's really isn't anything to write home about, and not nearly as spectacular as the one she had with her previous partner, but the judges still seem to be judging that one rather than the one this current team is performing). But Deanna and Max did seem a bit deliberate here, and I think they need to show more abandon.

In terms of attack and speed I liked Alexa/Brandon best today, though as I noted, I thought they were given extra world champion points for a few of the elements — particularly the botched side by side jumps, which had two strikes against them, yet managed to score positive GOE. Their timing has never matched and still didn't today, and Brandon touched a hand down. Any way you slice it that should spell negative GOE. But I do like this program for them, and that throw triple flip was spectacular.

The Japanese team has really smoothed out some of the rough edges that were still so apparent last year. I just wish they had different music and a different program. This just is not memorable (I'm having trouble recalling any of the choreography, and I only watched it a couple of hours ago). Without the jump error I would have easily placed Alexa/Brandon first.

Long programs will be very important, mistakes are going to matter.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

This was interesting and well skated by and large. A bit of a disaster for Chan and Howe, but everyone else skated to a high level. I didn't have a problem with the placements, but would have had Stellato-Dudeck/Dechamps closer in scores to the top two rather than the team behind them. I really like the choreography of their program, and thought they deserved more GOE on the twist, which was actually better than Alexa/Brandon's (their's really isn't anything to write home about, and not nearly as spectacular as the one she had with her previous partner, but the judges still seem to be judging that one rather than the one this current team is performing). But Deanna and Max did seem a bit deliberate here, and I think they need to show more abandon.

In terms of attack and speed I liked Alexa/Brandon best today, though as I noted, I thought they were given extra world champion points for a few of the elements — particularly the botched side by side jumps, which had two strikes against them, yet managed to score positive GOE. Their timing has never matched and still didn't today, and Brandon touched a hand down. Any way you slice it that should spell negative GOE. But I do like this program for them, and that throw triple flip was spectacular.

The Japanese team has really smoothed out some of the rough edges that were still so apparent last year. I just wish they had different music and a different program. This just is not memorable (I'm having trouble recalling any of the choreography, and I only watched it a couple of hours ago). Without the jump error I would have easily placed Alexa/Brandon first.

Long programs will be very important, mistakes are going to matter.

Yes, the judges gave positive GOE, on sbs jumps where Brandon leaned forward. Although he reached down with one arm, he pulled it back and he did not touch the ice. Discretion of judges whether to minus GOE. I've seen many times slight bobbles , leans and even turnouts by champions (Hanyu e.g., some Russian pairs, et. al) and the judges give positive GOE.

Miura/Kihara always get positive GOE on their triple twist, even when contact on the dismount has been obvious.

ETA:
Of course, Alexa/Brandon have not always been perfectly in sync on their sbs, but it's inaccurate to say they've never been in sync!

It's easy to nitpick on teams we may not be partial to. In such cases, we tend to notice their flaws b/f crediting their strengths.

 

[rain]

Yes, the judges gave positive GOE, on sbs jumps where Brandon leaned forward. Although he reached down with one arm, he pulled it back and he did not touch the ice. Discretion of judges whether to minus GOE. I've seen many times slight bobbles , leans and even turnouts by champions (Hanyu e.g., some Russian pairs, et. al) and the judges give positive GOE.

Miura/Kihara always get positive GOE on their triple twist, even when contact on the dismount has been obvious.

You know, the what-about-isms are not helpful. This was an obviously flawed element. I would have forgiven the small positive GOE they got on it (the judges didn't go crazy, at least) if it had only had one visible flaw, but it didn't. It had two visible flaws. That's reputation judging, not judging what's on the ice.

ETA:
Of course, Alexa/Brandon have not always been perfectly in sync on their sbs, but it's inaccurate to say they've never been in sync!

It's easy to nitpick on teams we may not be partial to. In such cases, we tend to notice their flaws b/f crediting their strengths.

Show me one time when they have been in synch. As I said above, normally, their different takeoff timing isn't enough to make it go into the negative, but along with another problem, it is.

Who on earth said I'm not partial to them? Did you skip the part of my post where I said I liked them the best of the field? It's OK to acknowledge the imperfections of the teams and skaters we like, you know.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You know, the what-about-isms are not helpful. This was an obviously flawed element. I would have forgiven the small positive GOE they got on it (the judges didn't go crazy, at least) if it had only had one visible flaw, but it didn't. It had two visible flaws. That's reputation judging, not judging what's on the ice.

Show me one time when they have been in synch. As I said above, normally, their different takeoff timing isn't enough to make it go into the negative, but along with another problem, it is.

Who on earth said I'm not partial to them? Did you skip the part of my post where I said I liked them the best of the field? It's OK to acknowledge the imperfections of the teams and skaters we like, you know.

LOL. Uh, did you see the pairs fp? Tell me chapter and verse just how many times various teams received positive GOE for mistakes. Geesh! See you in the fp thread. In the warmup, K/F executed an in sync jumping pass. I'm not going to try and find all of K/F's performances to date to document when they jumped in sync. I know they have jumped in sync a number of times, having seen it with my own eyes. They also sometimes have a tendency to slightly jump out of sync, but that was more-so in the beginning of their partnership to my recollection. Yeah, they still aren't perfectly in sync all the time. But to say that they are always out of sync on the sbs jumps is simply not true.

Yes, the judges certainly could have taken off something for Brandon's sbs jump lean on the landing, but they didn't. And it wasn't that bad compared to other glitches we can point out from other teams who were also positively rewarded, w/o being World champions. So, yes K/F got a World champion boost here and there, but not over much. Especially not in comparison to the padding and favoritism scoring we just saw in the fps for other teams!

Yeah I saw where you said that you like K/F. What I said was a general observation, especially in view of the fact that there are posters who clearly don't like K/F and have a tendency to pile on.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

@skylark, I see your additional post. I'm talking about fans, some of whom don't seem to really be pairs fans, or else they are fair weather fans, who have said "pairs is dead," and they bemoan the Russians being banned. I said in another thread that for me this is an opportunity to understand how difficult pairs is, and to witness how these up-and-coming teams who are competing will develop over the next four years.

It has been a known fact that U.S. teams have been looked down on despite having a lot of depth over the past 10 years, and in the last quad having 4 U.S. teams in the top 15 and 3 in the top 10, in World Standings.

Also you and @CanadianSkaterGuy and anyone who thinks that K/F's scores are too high, are not being respectful of their talent, and of the fact that they are defending World champions. The judges are respecting them, just like they do every other World champion team. By suggesting that K/F's score was "massive," while ignoring that M/K received a 'massive' score too simply reveals that you prefer Miura/Kihara. K/F are not being over-scored in the current environment of how the judges are scoring. The scoring in fs fluctuates often, and it's often managed and manipulated. M/K had 42+ when they stopped skating, and then their tech score increased slightly before the final scores were posted

M/K have a lot of fans globally, plus are loved by many Canadians b/c they train there. They are supported by Japanese political clout, and love from the judges too, so why can't some respect by the judges be spared for the current World champions from the U.S.? Be patient all who don't like K/F. This is likely their last season. Please allow their fans to enjoy it. Many of you apparently are looking forward to M/K finally being anointed, when they couldn't be at 2022 Worlds after skating so poorly (yet still making the podium in second place!)

I definitely prefer M/K's program, yes, but I don't hold favourites like that and think skaters should be assessed based on how they skate THAT day, and not what "reigning XYZ" they are.

The World Champion bonus is a thing, and we can agree to disagree, but it's unfair to the other teams to give someone a bonus or a pass or not deduct appropriately because they happened to win Worlds.

I am HUGE SK/F fans and I was thrilled that SK/F won Worlds, and thought their scores were well deserved and were the class of the field. Their FS made me feel more than a lot of the absent Russian/Chinese teams have, and I challenge anyone who says they didn't earn that World title. I was also outraged at the high scores that M/K received for their FS with the pops and falls, even though I do love M/K too. Yeah, I have my faves, but I give credit where credit is due and am legit upset when my faves get propped up and don't earn their scores. M/K received a massive score yes, but they were clean (the only overscoring I saw wa

If there's one thing in skating that truly irks me is when a skater or team who has skated cleanly before gets a personal best with an obvious error (and not due to having upped their difficulty to offset said error, and still earning a PB that way, a la Malinin earlier this season). It's basically the judges saying SK/F's best ever program had a hand down. Doesn't matter where SK/F hail from - they made an error and were rewarded with a PB and the GOE on their 3T should have been scrutinized as much as some of the other teams who did cleaner SBS jumps but got similar GOE (e.g their 3T got higher GOE than SD/D, and some judges gave them the same GOE as C/M's clean 3S).

World champion or not, their career/personal best should be a clean skate — or a skate that is technically out of this world with an error here and there. SK/F's SP yesterday was neither.

Do you think that was, honestly, the best short program SK/F have ever done?

 

[rain]

LOL. Uh, did you see the pairs fp? Tell me chapter and verse just how many times various teams received positive GOE for mistakes. Geesh! See you in the fp thread. In the warmup, K/F executed an in sync jumping pass. I'm not going to try and find all of K/F's performances to date to document when they jumped in sync. I know they have jumped in sync a number of times, having seen it with my own eyes. They also sometimes have a tendency to slightly jump out of sync, but that was more-so in the beginning of their partnership to my recollection. Yeah, they still aren't perfectly in sync all the time. But to say that they are always out of sync on the sbs jumps is simply not true.

Yes, the judges certainly could have taken off something for Brandon's sbs jump lean on the landing, but they didn't. And it wasn't that bad compared to other glitches we can point out from other teams who were also positively rewarded, w/o being World champions. So, yes K/F got a World champion boost here and there, but not over much. Especially not in comparison to the padding and favoritism scoring we just saw in the fps for other teams!

Yeah I saw where you said that you like K/F. What I said was a general observation, especially in view of the fact that there are posters who clearly don't like K/F and have a tendency to pile on.

I have, at this point, nothing to say about the free since I'm at work and haven't had a chance to see it. But it is totally irrelevant to this discussion about the SP, as all the other what-about-isms are. That's really my whole point. Judging what's one the ice at any given time, not what's been on the ice before and what might be on the ice later.

The point is that they didn't do a very good side by side jump, and still got more than zero GOE on it. That is an abuse of the judging system. Does it happen to others as well? Yup. Does that make it right in this or any other case? Nope. Does that mean I have to shut up and never mention it if I like K/F? Nope again.

You know, basically calling everyone who criticizes your faves in any way haters isn't conducive to a good discussion. Since some of those people, like me, do actually like your team, too.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I have, at this point, nothing to say about the free since I'm at work and haven't had a chance to see it. But it is totally irrelevant to this discussion about the SP, as all the other what-about-isms are. That's really my whole point. Judging what's one the ice at any given time, not what's been on the ice before and what might be on the ice later.

The point is that they didn't do a very good side by side jump, and still got more than zero GOE on it. That is an abuse of the judging system. Does it happen to others as well? Yup. Does that make it right in this or any other case? Nope. Does that mean I have to shut up and never mention it if I like K/F? Nope again.

You know, basically calling everyone who criticizes your faves in any way haters isn't conducive to a good discussion. Since some of those people, like me, do actually like your team, too.

You used the word, 'haters.' I said there are those who don't like or who dislike K/F's skating for one reason or another, and they say so with their whole chest. There was even a fan in the SA thread who had the gall to say negative things about Alexa personally, which was false and stereotypical. Everyone who knows Alexa personally comment on how wonderful she is. I follow her Instagram, so I get a good sense of her character there, and I also know how she has conducted herself for years. She's a good sports person, a great person, and a fierce competitor.

That negative poster was called out by others in that thread, not by me b/c I didn't comment much in that thread, having been unable to watch the full event. Still, that poster doubled down and never apologized. The reason I point this out, is not because you were involved, but because you are inaccurately saying I call everyone "haters who criticize my faves," I'm pointing out where you are wrong. 'Haters' is your word, not mine.

Also, I already said that K/F are not my favorite pairs team, but that I admire, respect and support them. I don't like seeing them piled on unfairly, and that's what has been happening. Alexa, Chris, and Brandon are all good people, and exemplary athletes in figure skating.

Of course, there are many good people in this sport. I always try to give credit to skaters for their strengths, even when I don't like their skating. It's just a fact that in figure skating, the judging has historically been problematic, sometimes corrupt, and always political. In recent years, U.S. pairs teams have tended to be disrespected by fans and sometimes by the judges. In this environment, in which we have a U.S. pairs team as World champions, I'm going to call out where I see them being piled on and criticized unfairly by fans because the judges are showing them respect for their accomplishments.

Most of your prior post I agree with. I only pointed out what I disagreed with, and where you were factually inaccurate. In addition, this sp portion of the event does not exist in a bubble. Fans in this thread are referencing other performances, just as the judges view and often score competitors based on their perceptions of how skaters have been performing and also quite often based on their prior season's results, not to mention political factors.

 

[rain]

You used the word, 'haters.' I said there are those who don't like or who dislike K/F's skating for one reason or another, and they say so with their whole chest. There was even a fan in the SA thread who had the gall to say negative things about Alexa personally, which was false and stereotypical. Everyone who knows Alexa personally comment on how wonderful she is. I follow her Instagram, so I get a good sense of her character there, and I also know how she has conducted herself for years. She's a good sports person, a great person, and a fierce competitor.

That negative poster was called out by others in that thread, not by me b/c I didn't comment much in that thread, having been unable to watch the full event. Still, that poster doubled down and never apologized. The reason I point this out, is not because you were involved, but because you are inaccurately saying I call everyone "haters who criticize my faves," I'm pointing out where you are wrong. 'Haters' is your word, not mine.

Also, I already said that K/F are not my favorite pairs team, but that I admire, respect and support them. I don't like seeing them piled on unfairly, and that's what has been happening. Alexa, Chris, and Brandon are all good people, and exemplary athletes in figure skating.

Of course, there are many good people in this sport. I always try to give credit to skaters for their strengths, even when I don't like their skating. It's just a fact that in figure skating, the judging has historically been problematic, sometimes corrupt, and always political. In recent years, U.S. pairs teams have tended to be disrespected by fans and sometimes by the judges. In this environment, in which we have a U.S. pairs team as World champions, I'm going to call out where I see them being piled on and criticized unfairly by fans because the judges are showing them respect for their accomplishments.

Yes, I said haters. Because that's the vibe you're throwing out. You were very, very quick to jump all over a perceived slight in my post against this team, when all I offered was a fair criticism of one performance. I have absolutely no comment on the skaters as people as I do not know them personally and from what little behaviour of theirs I have observed (on camera, at competitions) there's really nothing to say. Perhaps you shouldn't let what other posters have said in the past colour how you respond to a post like mine that was in no way derogatory and included both praise and criticism — which is what this board is for, after all, is it not?

Most of your prior post I agree with. I only pointed out what I disagreed with, and where you were factually inaccurate. In addition, this sp portion of the event does not exist in a bubble. Fans in this thread are referencing other performances, just as the judges view and often score competitors based on their perceptions of how skaters have been performing and also quite often based on their prior season's results, not to mention political factors.

Which is exactly where my criticism lay. Judges should not be judging on body of work or past or future performances, only what is put out there on the day. Positive GOE on their flawed side by side jumps was a bad call. Of course I realize they are human, too, and so complete purity of perception in this way is impossible, however, it is something they should be striving for, and something that it is completely valid to call out when they're wrong.

Anyway, that's the last I'll say on this topic, as I think we're venturing into the weeds.