2023 NHK Trophy: Ice Dance Thoughts?

[Ic3Rabbit]

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They need to do something random to justify existence. Sometimes I think they do something for the sake of change, rather than something that they think they should be doing. Chock and Bates of course got their first Grand prix medal around 2013 and won multiple GP in 2014. Of course, if you transported the team in current form, they wouldn't have succeeded but they were successful back then. Charlene and Marco had to do golden waltz in their first season, and they didn't do it at a top level standard, but granted it was their first season - but they weren't known for being strong in pattern dances back then, and I do feel the lack of height difference would make many of the pattern dances a struggle though. Piper and Paul I could see performing pattern dances very elegantly, but possibly lacking a lot of speed and flow vs the top ice dancers back then.

They may but here's the kicker with what you are saying and I will respectfully disagree for the following reasons: Again, none of these teams would have faired the same overall 15 years ago. Some weren't even paired up then either. The point you make about Gilles/Poirier I'm going to strongly disagree with b/c if they were made to do compulsaries even next season--they'd do them with style and speed/flow/edge quality. They have (esp Paul) some of the best edges in dance now. Also, Lewis' edges are almost equal to Poirier at this point...I said almost, he is good at what he does. Yes, Lilah is still improving but has been at a great rate, she reminds me so much of Gilles early on, who has now almost completely matched her partners edge quality.
I will agree with you that Charlene and Marco wouldn't fare good at all in the Compulsaries and I'll add on that her more than him. I have no issue with his edges (they're gorgeous), hers needs a bit of help.
Then again (and I know I'm going to get hell from alot of posters on this one--Chock Bates based on edge quality are not top of the game. They skate too much on flats (esp her) and their twizzle game is up and down for years now (esp his). Put them next to G/F, P2, P/C and especially V/M in their heyday and IN PERSON you would see the blaring differences.

I'll see myself out now.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I do give Lopareva/Brissaud the outside chance for europeans Bronze based on technical consistency.

Maybe their rhythym dance is kinda letting them down a bit i think. It is very quirky. Maybe that puts off some judges?

 

[throw_triple_flip]

I do feel for Charlene/Marco. Was a surprise for me the judges didn't let them win this competition... they could have done so even with 0.01 overall TSS, adding some +GOE more in any desired element, if they wanted to. Reminds me of the Ice dance outcome of Worlds 2014 in Saitama, only 0.08 point difference btwn top 3 teams. I was there, broke my heart and cried badly over Nathalie and Fabian;;;

I just hope Charlene and Marco will go 'Chock/Bates' en route'; regroup themselves by GPF and have the better results at the Euro and worlds.

"Let" them win?
But why should they? (That's even if they could)

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Judges aren't supercomputers, they can't calculate the scores in their head. They mark each element and PCS factor, and then the score comes together. They don't come together and collectively decide a score to announce,

I agree with this- all those different numbers, it being an average where the lowest and highest numbers get excluded (and also having to judge GOEs and PCS)- i don't think think it's possible rigging things that precisely.


(Looking at the protocols on skating scores where you can make it show you which scores got discounted is very interesting, expecially comparing the Italian judge to the British one).

 

[kolyadafan2002]

They may but here's the kicker with what you are saying and I will respectfully disagree for the following reasons: Again, none of these teams would have faired the same overall 15 years ago. Some weren't even paired up then either. The point you make about Gilles/Poirier I'm going to strongly disagree with b/c if they were made to do compulsaries even next season--they'd do them with style and speed/flow/edge quality. They have (esp Paul) some of the best edges in dance now. Also, Lewis' edges are almost equal to Poirier at this point...I said almost, he is good at what he does. Yes, Lilah is still improving but has been at a great rate, she reminds me so much of Gilles early on, who has now almost completely matched her partners edge quality.
I will agree with you that Charlene and Marco wouldn't fare good at all in the Compulsaries and I'll add on that her more than him. I have no issue with his edges (they're gorgeous), hers needs a bit of help.
Then again (and I know I'm going to get hell from alot of posters on this one--Chock Bates based on edge quality are not top of the game. They skate too much on flats (esp her) and their twizzle game is up and down for years now (esp his). Put them next to G/F, P2, P/C and especially V/M in their heyday and IN PERSON you would see the blaring differences.

I'll see myself out now.

I agree R.e chock/bates, I don't rate their edges or SS. I personally wouldn't have had them in contention for worlds these past two years. But back then they were doing well (not necessarily deserved, but it happens).

With Piper and Paul, I 100% agree they'd fair better than the other top couples right now. They'd win worlds if they bought back PD tomorrow. Their kneebend is very good and edges are too, and also very importantly for the PD they have good control. I just don't think they do well with the pushing compared to top couples in the past (not sure why, but they don't gain much speed, especially over last two seasons). It could be physical instead of technical, and I think next to V/M etc they wouldn't make the same impression.

With Lewis, my issue isn't the edges - I think his edge control is fab. For me it's more that he doesn't get as down in the knees, and when he does his forward stroking he doesn't stay down in the knees as well as Marco or Paul (I feel he always has a little rise as he lifts the free leg, which is fine if he is trying to lilt, but he never goes back down to maximum kneebend). But that also could be the fact that he isn't much taller than Lilah so is limited there as too much kneebend could cause other issues. I do think in backwards crossovers, his kneebend is quite good which leads me to think for him it's technical not physical (unsure if it's deliberate technical decision, or technique).

For me, Charlenes edge control is much better than it used to be, but the more complex pattern dances might result in a lot of struggle. One issue I find is the Marco's kneebend is slightly better than hers - and this often makes him smaller when they are skating together which compounds height difference. Their speed and power (and for me flow, but this is debatable) feels the best of the one I've mentioned, and the basic pushing/stroking technique, but the control is just as important for successful execution so I agree that they would struggle and Piper and Paul would be ahead, and theyd have struggled a lot against other couples you mentioned.

Maybe their rhythym dance is kinda letting them down a bit i think. It is very quirky. Maybe that puts off some judges?

All three couples are very tight in scores, I would say outside chance based on Europeans location being lithuania. I also think if Finns and Lithuanians improve levels, then the technical blanket of the French will gradually dissapear.

I agree with this- all those different numbers, it being an average where the lowest and highest numbers get excluded (and also having to judge GOEs and PCS)- i don't think think it's possible rigging things that precisely.


(Looking at the protocols on skating scores where you can make it show you which scores got discounted is very interesting, expecially comparing the Italian judge to the British one).

The only way I see it possible to rig scores for the certainty of one team winning (and for judges to knowingly calculate this) is for judges to score every individual element higher. and this would result in a much larger gap (think giving an additional 10% to every single element) . Modern ice dance scoring bias occurs at the element level (ignoring mistakes, or marking elements generously), rather than in an overall scoring sense.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I saw on NBC.wow.
Great skate all. A tough one to judges tech callers and judges.

I agree that Fear/Gibson should win. Despite what look easy.
They had the flow , connection and tough elements .they do make it look easy.

It was a joy to watch.
Guignard and Fabbri had the tough elements, but at times it look jerky and unsure movements out on ice. They did not seem to have the fluid to me. Sometimes it look unsure.

There did skate well .

Reed and Ambrulevicius

 

[Skater Boy]

I saw on NBC.wow.
Great skate all. A tough one to judges tech callers and judges.

I agree that Fear/Gibson should win. Despite what look easy.
They had the flow , connection and tough elements .they do make it look easy.

It was a joy to watch.
Guignard and Fabbri had the tough elements, but at times it look jerky and unsure movements out on ice. They did not seem to have the fluid to me. Sometimes it look unsure.

There did skate well .

Reed and Ambrulevicius

I like Fear and Gibson but I don't like their Rocky program. I find it kind of blah. I appreciate they may not want campy but there is some camp in the music and costumes and even their physical stature whether you like it or not. Even though he is tone he looks puny and almost mocking Rocky. But that is minor compared to what I think is a lack of relationship with the music especially at the beginning. I can see Canada ending up with no medal though I have to remember worlds is in Canada. I don't think the Danadians are tech strong/consistent enough. And it is clear the judges are putting Gibson and fear on top of them. Chock and Bates are the world champs. They seem to pull it out when it counts. The judges certainly could have had the Italians beat the Brits and it would be hard to argue - greater pcs and greater GOE's. it was close enough that I coudl see that eventhough the Brits had a fabulous curved lift that is just one element. Dance has the most intrigue. 5 teams fighting for a medal -four for gold.

 

[skylark]

F/G do have their weaknesses, but I appreciate that while they work on their weaknesses, they are also strategically taking advantage of their strengths, and the Japanese audience was fully captured by their performance.

Very important points! One of the things I resent about the points system is that so much conversation gets geared toward this (wrong) technique, or that, or the other. For me, technique serves the emotion and the overall program and skating, not the other way 'round.

 

[gravy]

You could tell Fear and Gibson were going to win just by looking at the panel here. Ice dance is so corrupt.

So glad Gabby and Guillaume are most likely coming back. I can't stomach the Brits, Piper and Paul, and Chock and Bates winning more than they have. The Italians are boring AF and mismatched but are technically superior.

 

[dorispulaski]

The Italians have their own weaknesses, particular in timing. Granted timing has been deemphasized in the current IJS, but ice dance did not descend from ballet or athletics of some kind. It was born from social dancing to music with a defined beat. Your music is supposed to first have a defined beat and then you step on the beat.

Like the American Bandstand dancers of olden days, for me the measure of a good dance tune is that it has a great beat so I can dance to it.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

The Italians have their own weaknesses, particular in timing. Granted timing has been deemphasized in the current IJS, but ice dance did not descend from ballet or athletics of some kind. It was born from social dancing to music with a defined beat. Your music is supposed to first have a defined beat and then you step on the beat.

Like the American Bandstand dancers of olden days, for me the measure of a good dance tune is that it has a great beat so I can dance to it.

Their timing is actually quite good, in the rhythm dance at least. They are very well timed with each other in the no touch midline for example, which to me is a good indication of timing (unless a couple is both equally out of time).

unrelated to G/F, some music's lend to stepping on an "and" instead of a bear and then doing turns on a beat, I wouldn't use the stepping on a beat as a rule generally.


Free Dance I haven't examined in reguards to timing yet though, so maybe they have weaknesses with timing that sort of music. Of course with pattern dances timing might be a weakness (I.e. golden waltz has very difficult timing vs straightforward timing).

 

[throw_triple_flip]

You could tell Fear and Gibson were going to win just by looking at the panel here. Ice dance is so corrupt.

So glad Gabby and Guillaume are most likely coming back. I can't stomach the Brits, Piper and Paul, and Chock and Bates winning more than they have. The Italians are boring AF and mismatched but are technically superior.

It's wild that you seem to be implying that preferential scoring could only possibly apply to certain teams (mainly the ones you seem to strongly dislike- is there any need for that hostility btw?). There are teams with arguably as good or better skating skills than Guignard and Fabbri and they don't get anywhere near the same scores.
Plus they have a reputation for good skating skills, but were they actually technically stronger at the NHK trophy? Did they have clarity of turns in the step sequences? What about the quality of the twizzles and lifts? Were their transitions more skilful? Were their choregraphic elements better/more creative? (subjective).

 

[slider11]

I just hope that the "senior" senior ice dance group move on (retire) before the next Olympics. That's everyone in the GPF except Fear/Lewis and LaJoie/Lagha. I am so looking forward to attention given to new, fresh teams ! I think Evan and Nic are hanging in there to appease their on/off ice partners. Maybe Marco, too.

 

[peepsquick]

I just hope that the "senior" senior ice dance group move on (retire) before the next Olympics. That's everyone in the GPF except Fear/Lewis and LaJoie/Lagha. I am so looking forward to attention given to new, fresh teams ! I think Evan and Nic are hanging in there to appease their on/off ice partners. Maybe Marco, too.

Strange way to think about it ... I think it harsh for the athletes. What Ice Dance needs is not new dancers but a new way to judge: I never understood the principle of "waiting for your turn". If dance teams are good enough to get excellent scores, they should be able to jump ahead of more senior pairs.

 

[slider11]

Strange way to think about it ... I think it harsh for the athletes. What Ice Dance needs is not new dancers but a new way to judge: I never understood the principle of "waiting for your turn". If dance teams are good enough to get excellent scores, they should be able to jump ahead of more senior pairs.

It may be harsh but I think we're saying the same thing. Judges are giving preference to "senior" teams because they are very good technically and artistically but also because they are known and have"earned" the right to high scores. Why else would a shaky twizzle or sloppy edge work get high goe's? I think there are good teams who are held back because "it's not your time" and "senior" teams who are given lots of grace points for errors.

 

[4everchan]

It may be harsh but I think we're saying the same thing. Judges are giving preference to "senior" teams because they are very good technically and artistically but also because they are known and have"earned" the right to high scores. Why else would a shaky twizzle or sloppy edge work get high goe's? I think there are good teams who are held back because "it's not your time" and "senior" teams who are given lots of grace points for errors.

well... considering how refined turn technique and edge control need to be for ice dance, it is normal that some more seasoned teams get higher scores. That's one fact. Yes, there is as well a problem with judging but it is not all that there is. Piper and Paul were not as good with the technical side of the sport until a few years ago. They have improved (especially Piper) tremendously. Nik has also improved over the years. I will never support the thought that fans should dictate who gets to retire or not. How would you feel if you had a passion and someone you don't even know told you that you no longer deserve to do what you love? That's very unfair.

 

[peepsquick]

It may be harsh but I think we're saying the same thing. Judges are giving preference to "senior" teams because they are very good technically and artistically but also because they are known and have"earned" the right to high scores. Why else would a shaky twizzle or sloppy edge work get high goe's? I think there are good teams who are held back because "it's not your time" and "senior" teams who are given lots of grace points for errors.

I really enjoy watching the junior ice dance teams ... they are new and full of promise and enthusiasm. Some of them will emerge to be tomorrow's winners but all this takes its toll and if some make the transition easily or even spectacularly, many will keep working hard to have a chance of medalling. It is the nature of being an athlete: hard work and resilience.
I do think like you that the policy on goe's needs a hard look ...