Alarming annual PCS inflation

[jcoates]

That kind of thing happened under 6.0 as well.
For example

Correct. All the time. G&G got a 6.0 in the LP in 1994 despite Sergei's errors. Also, at 2004 Worlds, 6.0s were given out like candy as fond farewell to the old system. Objectively, many were not deserved and the number of 6.0s given to certain skaters was laughable. Mind you, some of them were skaters I adore but I can judge them objectively enough to know they were overscored. Still, it did not affect the overall results, so why make a fuss? Which is why I'm perplexed as to why all the uproar is suddenly happening surrounding D/W as if they are the first skaters this has happened to in all of skating. It further leads me to question if this is more about them than their scores. I feel fairly comfortable in saying that if scores were reversed and V/M were getting the highest PCS, many would not be making the same complaints.

ETA: Nice post Doris. :thumbsup:

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Fwiw, jcoates, I'm not panicky about V/M's chances. I'm pretty resigned about them. I just hope they win the GPF so they have the title that eludes them.

In this thread, as near as I can tell, I'm the only V/M uber. However, I have not complained about D/W's victory in Russia. My complaint about W/P's PCS were more in relation to B/S, but I understand not seeing them live renders that suspect. I complained about the ten in the SD because I thought it was a blatant example of erroneous judging and the feeling that they would be scored at that level regardless of what they put on the ice. I have not complained about the tens they received in the FD nor the tens they received at Skate America, but I'd argue that erroneous judging like that does cast all results suspect (see Patrick Chan). I have given them credit for their improvements and work ethic. I'm not really sure what you'd like other for others to mimic your opinion, honestly.

As for the comparison to V/M in general.... well, watch B. Eurosport after Skate Canada - they wondered where the scoring would compare to the Davis/White. We can say we can't compare scores across events, but the ISU can and does (with the GP rankings. Scores on a skater's ISU bio indicate personal best, not season's best, they cite World Records). So it's not entirely out of line to do so.

I like the idea of a logarithmic scale for PCS.

 

[dorispulaski]

IP, It was one judge. He probably blinked. Like Andy Capp, I always quote meself. It lends class to me conversation:

And so he gave the kids a ten; he likely goofed and will again. We all will screw up now and then. God has not yet made perfect men.

Or women either.

 

[jcoates]

Pogue, you are not the only uber, and my comments are not restricted to what has been written in this thread and certainly not to you specifically. Others here and elsewhere have questioned the win in COR and more broadly their status as both world champions and challengers to V/M. I'm not attacking you or saying you fall into that category. I just wish the negativity were dialed down somewhat. D/W are certainly open to criticism, but it should be more measured than it has been recently.

BTW, I certainly don't want people to mimic my opinion. As I think you can tell, I love debate. But if an argument is going to be made, it should be supportable with facts and not just personal opinion or bias. Far too often people will just throw out angry comments with no evidence to back them up merely because they dislike a result, score or even a skater. Objectivity doesn't even enter the picture for those people.

You on the other hand are reasonable, thoughtful and fairly objective. We can come to different conclusions and I'm fine with that. In fact I enjoy it. You and others have convinced me to change opinions many times over the years. I'm certainly open to persuasion.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm totally gonna use the "He probably blinked" line.

 

[chuckm]

I'm of the opinion that if V/M had received the 10s after a slight stumble, there wouldn't be this huge outcry.

 

[skateflower]

That was one time I was so glad that marks were being given out generously. It would have been so awful if that strange stumble on the lift had cost Shen and Zhao, clearly the class of the field for that Olympic cycle, the gold.

If S/Z skated as they did at the 2009 GPF, i have no problem with their winning. However, their free skate was sub-par with lots of little glitches. P&T should have beaten them by a wider margin and thus won the gold if judges did their work, IMO.Whether S/Z was the worthy winner is debatable despite being the sentimental favorites. This is exactly the problem with IJS. The judges mark up their favorites to get the desired results. Nothing has changed.

 

[Dragonlady]

In this thread, as near as I can tell, I'm the only V/M uber.

No you're not. I've been a fan of this team since they were kids, literally and started talking them up on the ISU Board before they ever skated their firsti JGP event, although I did qualify it by saying that I knew it was foolish to fall in love with a team this young, since the odds of them staying together and making it to senior were slim. I was also at Thornhill when they debuted their Mahler program and I knew then that they would win the OGM with that program. Everyone in the building left there raving about the Mahler program and other people called us deranged ubers, but everyone else I've talked who was there had the same reaction.

If not for Charilie and Meryl, I don't think Tessa and Scott would be as good as they are, and vice versa. I'm looking forward to the GPF and I don't think it's a given that D&W will win Worlds at all. But I think I'm going to have a lot of fun watching the GPF, 4CC and Worlds while these two teams duke it out.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

No you're not. I've been a fan of this team since they were kids, literally and started talking them up on the ISU Board before they ever skated their firsti JGP event, although I did qualify it by saying that I knew it was foolish to fall in love with a team this young, since the odds of them staying together and making it to senior were slim. I was also at Thornhill when they debuted their Mahler program and I knew then that they would win the OGM with that program. Everyone in the building left there raving about the Mahler program and other people called us deranged ubers, but everyone else I've talked who was there had the same reaction.

If not for Charilie and Meryl, I don't think Tessa and Scott would be as good as they are, and vice versa. I'm looking forward to the GPF and I don't think it's a given that D&W will win Worlds at all. But I think I'm going to have a lot of fun watching the GPF, 4CC and Worlds while these two teams duke it out.

Sorry, I should've said the only V/M-uber complaining, which you're not doing.

 

[dorispulaski]

IP, you may think the blinked thing is fake, but it could be worse. It could be like what happened to poor skater in the Olympics. It was back in the days when the judges held up 2 cards. If the score was 5.6, they held up the 5 in one hand and the 6 in the other. It was also the days of figures. In any case, one judge wished to give the skater a 5.0. However, they got their hands mixed up and give him a 0.5. The judge was unable to undo the mistake, the mark went in the books and the skater finished 2nd instead of first. AFAIR, it was Tim Wood, but I could be wrong there.

 

[Mathman]

IP, you may think the blinked thing is fake, but it could be worse. It could be like what happened to poor skater in the Olympics. It was back in the days when the judges held up 2 cards. If the score was 5.6, they held up the 5 in one hand and the 6 in the other. It was also the days of figures. In any case, one judge wished to give the skater a 5.0. However, they got their hands mixed up and give him a 0.5. The judge was unable to undo the mistake, the mark went in the books and the skater finished 2nd instead of first. AFAIR, it was Tim Wood, but I could be wrong there.

Tim Wood was a classy skater. Excellent in figures and a strong technician, but without artistic flair. Here he is at 1988 Worlds (nice costume!). Note the delayed Axel where he clicks his heels together in mid-air! He also did "one of the most difficult elements in men's figure slating" (according to commentator Dick Button), a triple Salchow. (Complete rotations, but hand down.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgoBT9JYR18

About the"blink," though...If the judge blinked when Charlie stumbled, when he looked up he must have wondered why Charlie was frantically trying to catch up with his partner who was twenty feet down the ice.

[Edited to add}; Oh, darn. I just accidentally "rated" this thread. I hate it when I do that. :sheesh:

 

[leil]

I'm of the opinion that if V/M had received the 10s after a slight stumble, there wouldn't be this huge outcry.

actually i disagree. this season, v/m have had their marks criticized on icenetwork and goldenskate. they've skated pretty solid programs but the writers have thought the judges were scoring them too high. if v/m were to fall or almost fall and get 10s, icenetwork, especially, would be all over it. think back to the olympic season where tessa nearly fell in the od. journalists ripped apart their marks, which far short of perfection, and claimed that they were being propped up at skate canada. if v/m were to stumble and get 10s, the outcry would be bigger than one thread on a forum.

 

[Olympia]

No you're not. I've been a fan of this team since they were kids, literally and started talking them up on the ISU Board before they ever skated their firsti JGP event, although I did qualify it by saying that I knew it was foolish to fall in love with a team this young, since the odds of them staying together and making it to senior were slim. I was also at Thornhill when they debuted their Mahler program and I knew then that they would win the OGM with that program. Everyone in the building left there raving about the Mahler program and other people called us deranged ubers, but everyone else I've talked who was there had the same reaction.

If not for Charilie and Meryl, I don't think Tessa and Scott would be as good as they are, and vice versa. I'm looking forward to the GPF and I don't think it's a given that D&W will win Worlds at all. But I think I'm going to have a lot of fun watching the GPF, 4CC and Worlds while these two teams duke it out.

I like both sections of your post. It's great to have ubers around, especially of skaters this good. Congratulations to you for spotting V/M that early! I was in the same position with Michelle Kwan, and my admiration for her has never diminished. Isn't it wonderful when kids live up to their potential and even outdo it, as Tessa and Scott have (and as Michelle did)? If I were knowledgeable enough about ice dancing, I'd call myself an uber of V/M too, though I think I also feel that way about D/W, so I don't know if I'd be allowed to say that. I know I'm exceedingly grateful to live in a golden age of North American ice dancing.

Which brings me to the second part of your statement: I absolutely agree that these two splendid couples push each other higher and further than either of them would be alone. And how great that they're able to achieve that rivalry without resentment on either side.

ETA: Math and Doris, I missed Tim Wood by a few years, though I've read his name on lists, of course. I'll have to look him up; that delayed Axel sounds awesome. I know that when I finally hunted up John Mischa Petkevich, I was quite bowled over by him. This goes to show that skating is full of hidden treasures, which is why one should never just concentrate on the all-time greats. Look at someone like Yuka Sato. She won one world championship and certainly earned glory, but she wouldn't be in anyone's world top ten, or perhaps even on an Immortal Skaters of Japan list. Yet every time I watch her, I feel she shows me something wonderful about skating that no one else has brought to the ice. To get mathematical about it, a pyramid isn't made up of just the peak. Every part of it, from the base on up, including all the faces, edges, and vertices, is worthy of note.

 

[NorthernDancers]

It's rare for IJS to be used at prejuvenile in the US (starts at juvenile, but some club competitions offer the option to try it out a level lower). 2.0 or 1.75 are pretty solid scores for that level.

Under 6.0, the meanings of the numbers are similar, just on a narrower scale (0-6 instead of 0-10):
0.0 = not skated
1.0 = very poor
2.0 = poor
3.0 = mediocre
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = outstanding

However, at the lower levels open marking is rarely used so skaters only get to see their ordinals, not the exact scores they received. So in 6.0 judges are free to let the scale float to what they're comfortable with and to use a wide range between highest and lowest score for skaters at the same general skill level if that helps them keep track of their placements.

See rule 4911 in the USFS rulebook: http://usfigureskating.org/Content/201112Rulebook.pdf



That might essentially be happening. How can it be made more precise and more consistent from one judge to the next?



That kind of thing happened under 6.0 as well.
For example

In Canada, the IJS/COP goes all the way down to StarSkate now. Definitely covers Pre-Juvenile across the disciplines.

I would call myself a V/M uber. I love so much of what they do. They have a special exquisite magic that transcends the sport. I also happen to really like D/W. 20 years from now we will still be talking about the quality of these teams. I don't think this has to be an either/or situation. We can like them both. Do I think D/W were overscored at COR? You bet. Does it matter? I don't think so. The placements were right. We cannot compare across competitions. The GPF will tell the tale. And 4CC. And Worlds. I don't share the angst over V/M's future. I have a greater degree of confidence in the system than to believe it is all decided by politics and perceptions. That's the point of COP.

That being said, I do think there does need to be some tweaking of the system. In some instances, it is a means to politic scores and teams. I'm not talking quite so much about the elite level. V/M and D/W are both really very special. Anyone who has seen Chan live will also understand his marks. It's something to see. I'm more concerned about what I see sometimes at the National level. Many felt that W/P should have been champions. The judges were boo'd by many in the audience. I think Skate Canada likes to pick and choose which teams are the next ones. Unfortunately, by hitching their wagons, and not paying attention to the actual skating and results from time to time, they make some real errors. And then PCS and GOE's are great places to boost teams. There should be more direct guidelines to help minimize boosterism, or the opposite problem, good teams having their scores held down. PCS will always be subjective, and same with GOE to an extent, but there has to be a way to better categorize or define the numbers. At a broader level, if scores across competitions have to be used for ranking and qualifying for things like GPF, it's important to be able to trust the comparison is valid, and the right teams are being ranked properly.

 

[Serious Business]

I've seen performances that hit various PCS milestones in the past: Patrick Chan at Worlds, Virtue/Moir at the Olympics and Takahashi at the recent NHK Trophy. In all those cases, I got and deeply felt what was so special about the performances and why they inspired judges to hand out record high marks in PCS. With Davis/White's FD at Cup of Russia? I don't get it. I like the team, mind you, and I really, really like this FD. I enjoyed this particular performance as well. It just didn't move me to the point of proclaiming "greatest ever", or anything close.

To some extent, I am OK with PCS not being comparable across competitions (although I think it needs to be tightened up). However, this isn't just a little variation in scoring, this is The Highest PCS EVER. And many of what goes into PCS aren't based on niggling technicalities, but something as universal as art and performance. I'm just totally at a loss as to how this is a pinnacle in figure skating artistry. I don't think I'm the only one less than inspired by it. The generally supportive audience in attendance, even clapping enthusiastically as the music ramped up, nevertheless held back on a standing ovation. While audience reaction shouldn't decide the PCS, I would hope that a performance that grabs the highest marks ever in a score reflecting, among other things, audience involvement, would be able to move a non-hostile crowd into a standing ovation.

I have no conspiracy theories to offer, nor am I inclined to believe any unless concrete evidence surfaces. I am just baffled by this record.

 

[dorispulaski]

About the"blink," though...If the judge blinked when Charlie stumbled, when he looked up he must have wondered why Charlie was frantically trying to catch up with his partner who was twenty feet down the ice.

But Math, what if the judge were the one at the far end of the rink from Charlie? The stumble and following scramble to catch up would be at an angle, and wouldn't look like 20 feet. And it was in the corner on the judge's side of the rink. And the whole part of it that was visible (from the stumble until they got back together was about 4 seconds.) Time it yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOzZgElf2k

I still think the judge just goofed. Blinked. Dropped his pen and hunted for it.

Do they still throw out the high and the low score? It's certainly why it used to be done. Because people goof.

 

[ILoveFigures]

But Math, what if the judge were the one at the far end of the rink from Charlie? The stumble and following scramble to catch up would be at an angle, and wouldn't look like 20 feet. And it was in the corner on the judge's side of the rink. And the whole part of it that was visible (from the stumble until they got back together was about 4 seconds.) Time it yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulOzZgElf2k

I still think the judge just goofed. Blinked. Dropped his pen and hunted for it.

Do they still throw out the high and the low score? It's certainly why it used to be done. Because people goof.

They still throw out the highest and lowest scores on each element and component, so the 10's didn't count.

 

[museksk8r]

Look at someone like Yuka Sato. She won one world championship and certainly earned glory, but she wouldn't be in anyone's world top ten, or perhaps even on an Immortal Skaters of Japan list.

Alissa Czisny has said on tv broadcast that Yuka is her favorite skater and she would love to be able to skate like her and that she models the style of her own skating dresses based on dresses she has seen Yuka wear. Takahiko Kozuka took up skating because he first watched Yuka win Worlds in 1994 and admired her so much. Yuka is also in my personal favorite Ladies Top 10 List. :yes:

 

[jcoates]

They still throw out the highest and lowest scores on each element and component, so the 10's didn't count.

Thank you. Now can we please move on from the SD 10 complaints? It was an irrelevant score.

Now regarding the FD and this talk of highest PCS ever, has anyone considered this idea: Perhaps the judges just like the dance more than you do? It's happened before with other programs and it will certainly happen again. Their scores are not a public appeal for fans to agree with them or to submit their endorsement.

Another thought. Has anyone considered that one of this dance's great strengths is its fleetness even in complicated step sequences and transitions? On of the complaints about COP from the beginning was that programs severely slowed down once skaters entered their footwork sequences. Some programs came to a virtual standstill in those early days. It definitely interrupted the flow of programs. Gradually, comfort with the complexities of step sequences has increased over the years. As a result, they have become faster, more dynamic and increasingly look more like actual dancing. Is it possible, that the judges feel that this dance is just wonderful translation of ballroom to the ice that does not suffer from any distractions imposed by COP? After all, isn't that the ultimate goal in navigating this scoring system? To create a strong skating routine in spite of all the technical whatnot that COP demands; to keep it moving without obvious breaks and pauses to fit in the technical content. Is it just possible that the judges think they have achieved that better than their competition so far and that's why the scores are so high? Perhaps this has nothing to do with idealize aesthetics and more to do with idealized interpretation of the rules.

 

[Dragonlady]

I like both sections of your post. It's great to have ubers around, especially of skaters this good. Congratulations to you for spotting V/M that early! I was in the same position with Michelle Kwan, and my admiration for her has never diminished. Isn't it wonderful when kids live up to their potential and even outdo it, as Tessa and Scott have (and as Michelle did)? If I were knowledgeable enough about ice dancing, I'd call myself an uber of V/M too, though I think I also feel that way about D/W, so I don't know if I'd be allowed to say that. I know I'm exceedingly grateful to live in a golden age of North American ice dancing.

I started attending Thornhill Summer Skate in the 1999, when my daughter was skating Pre-Juvenile there. NAC's were at Thornhill that summer and some kid named Evan Lysacek won the Jr. Men's event. The following summer, I saw a "just up from Novice" Andrew Poje and his former partner skating at Summer Sizzle in Kitchener. I also remember seeing a 16 year-old named Jeff Buttle in Thornhill and thinking he was very promising and 12 year-old Patrick Chan and wondering if they weren't pushing this kid too fast.

The first summer I saw Tessa & Scott practicing there (at NAC's), I thought they were just there for international experience. They were far too young and too tiny to be a factor. Then the opening sequence to their music played and my jaw dropped. When they won the event, they silver & bronze medalists were all taller on the podium than they were, even though the silver and bronze medalists were on lower steps. One woman who was there told Scott she thought they were the sweepers when they first came on the ice because they were so small.

At 2005 Jr. Worlds, my roommate was a SkateFans poster from Nashville. She told me that her favourite ice-dance team had been skating together since they were 8 and 9, had only ever skated with their current partner, were coached by Igor & Marina, and they were fabulous. I said "Yes, of course. Tessa & Scott!". She said "No. Meryl & Charlie. Who are Tessa & Scott". At the end of the week she told me that Tessa & Scott were truly amazing but she thought Meryl and Charlie were better, and then she added, "But I think we're going to be having this argument for years to come" and that's certainly been true.

Any skater who achieves real greatness seems to have had a great rival who pushed them to be their best. Kwan/Slutskaya, Yagudin/Plushenko, Boitano/Orser, Curry/Cranston.