Alissa Czisny Update!

[venlac]

I've noticed that, outside the top 3, PCS scores are heavily dependent upon how well the skaters skate. The top 3 always get good PCS whether or not they have falls or other mistakes, while the other skaters will get good PCS only if they are clean. It seems there are about 8-10 skaters who have the potential to get the 4th highest PCS marks in Sochi, but I wish the top 3 skaters would also have the same variability in their marks as well.

At 2013 World, In FS, Li had clean program(what only kim and Li did at that night) and her TES was the highest except Yuna.
but she did not got 4th highest PCS as your claim, not even closed to that, her PCS rank was 10th.. She got the lowest PCS in Top Ten.
And, These youngsters were 2 points ahead of her , Gracie with minor errors / Adelina with 2 UR and even Ketyln who had messed program, include two falls.

Judges did not gave PCS scores, in heavily dependent on how well the skaters skate at all. This is not an opinion, It is fact.

 

[chuckm]

Li was a bit slow and her jumps were small---that's why her PCS scores weren't that high. And she is a relative unknown, compared to the skaters who got higher PCS scores.

 

[venlac]

Li was a bit slow and her jumps were small---that's why her PCS scores weren't that high. And she is a relative unknown, compared to the skaters who got higher PCS scores.

drivingmissdaisy said that "outside the top 3, PCS scores are heavily dependent upon how well the skaters skate" and "except top3, the other skaters will get good PCS if they are clean." so I had suggested Scores in 2013 world, to tell judges did not gave PCS that way.

by the way, it's not subject, I disagree with your opinion about Li's PCS. jump's size does not affect to PCS, and although young mao was slow, young mao had got high PCS, and higher than young kim who was faster.

 

[ForeverFish]

Young Kim was, as Orser put it, "awkward." She didn't project much, didn't have nearly as much power as she does now, and had a general gawkiness about her physique--a small frame with long legs and long arms--that made her skating less smooth than Asada's.

I don't know where you're getting the claim that young Asada was slow. How young are we talking about here? By the time she was a recognized junior skater, she was already landing consistent triple axels--a jump that's impossible without a good deal of speed on the entrance. Asada received higher PCS than Kim in those early days because she always had the easy, flowing lines and edges that Kim didn't develop until later.

What exactly is your beef with Li's PCS at Worlds? She scored in the low- to mid-sevens, which is what her performance deserved. Seven clean triples won't automatically bump you into the eights and nines; compared to the other ladies, she didn't give the most powerful demonstration of skating skills or artistic maturity. Her P/E was her highest score and her transitions the lowest, which made perfect sense.

 

[jaylee]

Young Kim was, as Orser put it, "awkward." She didn't project much, didn't have nearly as much power as she does now, and had a general gawkiness about her physique--a small frame with long legs and long arms--that made her skating less smooth than Asada's.

I don't know where you're getting the claim that young Asada was slow. How young are we talking about here? By the time she was a recognized junior skater, she was already landing consistent triple axels--a jump that's impossible without a good deal of speed on the entrance. Asada received higher PCS than Kim in those early days because she always had the easy, flowing lines and edges that Kim didn't develop until later.

Yu-Na was dreadfully underscored in components as a junior because she had zero reputation, came from a country with zero history in figure skating, and didn't have a big trick like a triple axel to catch the judges' attention. But even then, she impressed with lovely skating skills, edges, transitions, and quite nice interpretation skills--they didn't just appear overnight. Her jumps and spins were solid and she had good flexibility in her spins and spirals. That's why she beat Kimmie Meissner every time they met during the 2004-2005 season, as well as a number of other talented juniors, such as Alissa Czisny, Elene Gedevanishvili, and Emily Hughes who skated the best performance of her career at 2005 Junior Worlds. Yu-Na didn't project as much her first year as she did her second year as a junior, but she still performed very well. Yes, she lost to Mao, but Mao was clean at their two head-to-head competitions while Yu-Na bombed one segment each time. Those losses weren't because Yu-Na hadn't developed good edges or flow on the ice. As Caroline Zhang shows, you can't develop basic skating skills within a season--Yu-Na already had it even then, she just wasn't adequately rewarded for it.

As for Asada, I agree that her speed as a junior was quite good. And as for Li, she definitely needs to work on her ice coverage and other aspects of skating skills. However, she's also unfortunate enough to represent one of the weaker federations in the ladies discipline. So, she's not going to be given any favors. She can't afford mistakes like she had at 2013 Worlds SP. Her Worlds FS was delightful though and I was pleasantly surprised by her score. Hope she continues to improve and I'm looking forward to her Olympic programs.

As for Gracie, I thought she earned her spot on the worlds team. Her Nationals FS is technically the best one done by an American ladies ever at Nationals. Beats Kristi Yamaguchi's 1992 Nationals FS, IMO--technically. PCS not being entirely accurate and reflective of the performance is nothing new, she still earned 2nd, I thought.

And as for Alissa, uh, good luck?

 

[venlac]

Young Kim was, as Orser put it, "awkward." She didn't project much, didn't have nearly as much power as she does now, and had a general gawkiness about her physique--a small frame with long legs and long arms--that made her skating less smooth than Asada's..

the reason that Oser said "awkard" was because when he meet kim first, she looks like have no expression, and unhappy. Not about artistry.
I didn't thought young yuna's SP roxanne program was not powerful than Asada's . And, I didn't thoght young yuna's FS The Lark Ascending was less smooth than Asada's.

Anyway, it's my opinion, and that's your opinion. :yes:

I don't know where you're getting the claim that young Asada was slow. How young are we talking about here? By the time she was a recognized junior skater, she was already landing consistent triple axels--a jump that's impossible without a good deal of speed on the entrance. Asada received higher PCS than Kim in those early days because she always had the easy, flowing lines and edges that Kim didn't develop until later.

To refute against this claim "Li was a bit slow-that's why her PCS scores weren't that high' - so I used young Asada's case as an example. I know she was a 3Axel genius.

 

[ForeverFish]

Yu-Na was dreadfully underscored in components as a junior because she had zero reputation, came from a country with zero history in figure skating, and didn't have a big trick like a triple axel to catch the judges' attention. But even then, she impressed with lovely skating skills, edges, transitions, and quite nice interpretation skills--they didn't just appear overnight. Her jumps and spins were solid and she had good flexibility in her spins and spirals. That's why she beat Kimmie Meissner every time they met during the 2004-2005 season, as well as a number of other talented juniors, such as Alissa Czisny, Elene Gedevanishvili, and Emily Hughes who skated the best performance of her career at 2005 Junior Worlds. Yu-Na didn't project as much her first year as she did her second year as a junior, but she still performed very well. Yes, she lost to Mao, but Mao was clean at their two head-to-head competitions while Yu-Na bombed one segment each time. Those losses weren't because Yu-Na hadn't developed good edges or flow on the ice. As Caroline Zhang shows, you can't develop basic skating skills within a season--Yu-Na already had it even then, she just wasn't adequately rewarded for it.

I'm not underplaying Yuna's obvious talent or ability, even as a junior. She was miles better than everyone else in the world, excepting Asada, who WAS a stronger skater, technically and artistically, for about a season and a half.

Nor was I suggesting that Yuna had NO skating skills--that's obviously never been the case. It's just my opinion that Mao looked easier on the ice in their first few meetings. Yuna's interpretation has been excellent throughout her career, but once she expanded her comfort zone under Orser's tutelage, it simply flourished into the magnificence that we all recognize today.

Yuna has never placed off of the podium. That says more than anything else ever could.

 

[venlac]

"I disagree with your opinion about Li's PCS. jump's size does not affect to PCS, although young mao was slow, young mao had got high PCS, and higher than young kim who was faster."
In this sentence, what i mean "Young" mao or yuna was 06-07 season when kim had first senior season, and Yuna and Mao started compete as a Senior, same as Li in past season...
I apology that i didn't said accurate...

 

[ForeverFish]

To refute against this claim "Li was a bit slow-that's why her PCS scores weren't that high' - so I used young Asada's case as an example. I know she was a 3Axel genius.

But didn't young Asada get high PCS, as you said, in part because she had speed, as evidenced by the 3A?

 

[mskater93]

Young Asada got high PCS because of an "effortlessness" look to her skating. That is why she continues to get high PCS, even though she is obviously slower than Kim and Kostner.

 

[venlac]

ok. sorry, I didn't choose proper example to claim about Li's PCS...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

drivingmissdaisy said that "outside the top 3, PCS scores are heavily dependent upon how well the skaters skate" and "except top3, the other skaters will get good PCS if they are clean." so I had suggested Scores in 2013 world, to tell judges did not gave PCS that way.

This is not what I said. I said, among the second tier of skaters, the best of that group will get the highest PCS, not anyone who is the cleanest of the top 24.

 

[Pepe Nero]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I agree with chuckm's assumption that Alissa's hip injury basically prevented her from landing any jumps, including the 2A. At this point, speculation is all we have, because we'll never know what WOULD HAVE happened had Alissa tried to double her jumps.

I don't have a problem with turning triples into doubles, a la Kiira Korpi--knowing when to bail on a planned triple jump is the mark of a seasoned skater. It's better to aim for a lower BV than to grit your way through for -3 GOE and a 1-point deduction.

Well, it's a little non-sensical when one is skating under a system in which one earns less points for a rotated-landed-double than a flawed tripled.

Really, World Championships. There should be no credit for doubles (except for axels) at that point. That is what was so inspiring and admirable about AC's performance, despite injury, at that point. Going for it. Not: Saving face.

My general, I might add, undisputable, point was nothing more than the basic point of logic that chuckm did not know that AC would have fallen had she attempted different jumps, despite his claiming to have such knowledge (or at least unfounded confidence in such beliefs). Only a psychic person could have disputed this. Thus, either chuckm and FF are psychic, or FF does not understand logic. Who knows. (There is not a missing question mark.) Really believing it's true doesn't make it true, folks.

 

[Mathman]

Here's what I think.

50% probability. Alissa's career as a competitive skater is over. There comes a time when the heart says yes but the body says no.

25%. Alissa make a valiant effort, goes through sectionals and regionals to Nationals, gives it a shot but does not make the podium.

12.5%. Alissa makes steady progress through the fall, getting stronger and stronger, grabs third at nationals, lands in the middle of the pack at the Olympics.

6.25%. Alissa does a summer competition, shows she is ready, snags the TBA spot at Skate America, medals at Nationals, gets top ten at the Olympics.

3.125%. Alissa medals at Skate America, medals at Nationals, medals at Olympics.

68.2387%. Alissa wins Skate America, wins U.S. Nationals, wins the Olympic gold medal, and wins the hearts of all doubters and naysayers. :yes:

OK, this adds up to more than 100%, so one of the percentages must be too high.

 

[merrywidow]

Here's what I think.

50% probability. Alissa's career as a competitive skater is over. There comes a time when the heart says yes but the body says no.

25%. Alissa make a valiant effort, goes through sectionals and regionals to Nationals, gives it a shot but does not make the podium.

12.5%. Alissa makes steady progress through the fall, getting stronger and stronger, grabs third at nationals, lands in the middle of the pack at the Olympics.

6.25%. Alissa does a summer competition, shows she is ready, snags the TBA spot at Skate America, medals at Nationals, gets top ten at the Olympics.

3.125%. Alissa medals at Skate America, medals at Nationals, medals at Olympics.

68.2387%. Alissa wins Skate America, wins U.S. Nationals, wins the Olympic gold medal, and wins the hearts of all doubters and naysayers. :yes:

OK, this adds up to more than 100%, so one of the percentages must be too high.

 

[Pepe Nero]

68.2387%. Alissa wins Skate America, wins U.S. Nationals, wins the Olympic gold medal, and wins the hearts of all doubters and naysayers. :yes:

What, not 100%? Ha ha. Watch out, Yuna Kim!

No, seriously, even I think that would be undeserved (aside from insanely improbable). But, heck, it would make my day if she could get a bronze at the Olympics or the subsequent Worlds.

50% probability. Alissa's career as a competitive skater is over. There comes a time when the heart says yes but the body says no.

25%. Alissa make a valiant effort, goes through sectionals and regionals to Nationals, gives it a shot but does not make the podium.

12.5%. Alissa makes steady progress through the fall, getting stronger and stronger, grabs third at nationals, lands in the middle of the pack at the Olympics.

6.25%. Alissa does a summer competition, shows she is ready, snags the TBA spot at Skate America, medals at Nationals, gets top ten at the Olympics.

3.125%. Alissa medals at Skate America, medals at Nationals, medals at Olympics.

I'd be more than pleased with any of the latter three. I honestly think her longevity deserves a finish as an Olympian. I'm a sucker for underdogs (which Czisny pretty much always is) and people with seniority!

The first two make me sad and I don't want to think about it.

Oh, yes: let me apologize to chuckm and ForeverFish for the sharpness of my previous post. I got carried away, as posting on the internet causes me to do sometimes. Blurg.

 

[cohkaix]

Alissa is on Shen&Zhao's "Artistry on ice" tour at the moment. The first stop of the tour was in Taipei last night, and I was at the show. Alissa skated to "I like the way" during the 1st half of the show. I think there was only one jump attempted (an Axel, perhaps?), but she singled it. Her performance during the 1st half wasn't quite impressive, probably because she was the 1st to perform last night (it could also be that I'm not particularly drawn to that Ex program).
During the 2nd half, she skated to "Moon river". Someone has put up the video clip already:
[ArOI Alissa Czisny "Moon River"] http://telly.com/SI8RWR
As can be seen, she attempted other jumps and not all of them were successful. But her spins are still there, as spectacular and wonderful as before, I'd think (I've seen her twice in competitions, before she got injured).

 

[vera01]

Thank you for your review, cohkaix!

It makes me wonder, would Alissa be ready for competition by US Nationals next year?

 

[Mathman]

Alissa is on Shen&Zhao's "Artistry on ice" tour at the moment. The first stop of the tour was in Taipei last night, and I was at the show. Alissa skated to "I like the way" during the 1st half of the show. I think there was only one jump attempted (an Axel, perhaps?), but she singled it. Her performance during the 1st half wasn't quite impressive, probably because she was the 1st to perform last night (it could also be that I'm not particularly drawn to that Ex program)
.
During the 2nd half, she skated to "Moon river". Someone has put up the video clip already:
[ArOI Alissa Czisny "Moon River"] http://telly.com/SI8RWR

As can be seen, she attempted other jumps and not all of them were successful. But her spins are still there, as spectacular and wonderful as before, I'd think (I've seen her twice in competitions, before she got injured).

Thanks for the review!

I couldn't get the video to play all the way through , but in the part I could see I thought her jumps are coming along OK for this point in her rehabilitation schedule. In the first half she did not attempt any triple jumps, but did a nice double Lutz and a double (toe?) with waltz jump entry. Her fall was on the exit edge of a stag jump -- maybe she hit a rut or something.

One thing I like about Alissa's skating is that she does not rely on arm waving and excessive upper body movement. Everything seems to flow naturally from the blade up. :yes:

 

[Skater Boy]

Hmmm, I am wondering if the truth is she needs the money so instead of getting her programs she is trying to earn some money. Second, oh dear, one wold have expected much more crisp jumps by now. I mean they applauded single axels and double toes and a fall on a stag jump. Yes nice spins but this should not give anyone confidence - I don't think saw an attempt at a double axel or "garbage" triple (toe, wally or salchow. if you were an inverstor this performance does not give great confidence as beautiful as she is. Minor detail I anticipate her hair being down is because it is usually up and she wanted to show it off. Moon river would be an Audrey upsweep. I like Czisny skating but her performance hear does not give a lot of confidence.