- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
That is still not senior worlds, it's hard to win a competition you haven't been to.
Best female skater never to have won a world title ?
- Thread starter Jtsmith12
- Start date
That is still not senior worlds, it's hard to win a competition you haven't been to.
Wow, Blue Dog, good thinking! You named the one skater from the prewar era who probably belongs on this list, Maribel Vinson. I hadn't even thought that far back because I figured skating had advanced so much from that era that one couldn't compare--completely forgot about Vinson. But this lady eminently deserves consideration for the list. She was the nine-time national champion, a record she held alone until it was equaled by Michelle Kwan. It was her bad luck that she ran into the buzz saw that was Sonja Henie. Henie wasn't just incomparable: she was incomparable for three Olympic cycles--ten world championships, three OGM's. (I believe that her only equal in both those achievements was pairs skater Irina Rodnina.) There wasn't room for anyone else at the top from 1928 to 1936, and then after that, the next two Winter Olympics were canceled, in 1940 and 1944. Meanwhile, Vinson was skating and ultimately coaching. Two of her greatest students were her two daughters, Laurence and Maribel Y. Owen, who were the singles and pairs champions in the ill-fated year of the plane crash, 1961. All three of them, mother and daughters, went down on the plane.
For her place in skating history, as a coach as well as a competing skater, Vinson Owen belongs on the list. I'd still put Janet Lynn at the top for several reasons, but I'd move her into maybe second place. Or in a tie with Sasha Cohen.
For her place in skating history, as a coach as well as a competing skater, Vinson Owen belongs on the list. I'd still put Janet Lynn at the top for several reasons, but I'd move her into maybe second place. Or in a tie with Sasha Cohen.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
The only year Bonaly was possibly robbed was 93. She most definitely did not deserve to win in 94. She made atleast 2 major jump errors and her jumps were her only real strength. Sato should have won by a much bigger margin than she did, and only didnt since Bonaly had a bigger name.
Sarah Hughes was not a World Champion caliber skater (not an Olympic either of course, her Oly Gold was one of the biggest flukes of all time). The only year of the last 20 years I can think of where the Hughes of 2001-2002 could have won Worlds is this year where Miki Ando won with such mediocre performances.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
My personal answer is Caryn Kadavy. She was a stunning and complete skater who had the misfortune to come onto the scene at the time of great depth and huge names who had gotten there earlier than she did- Witt, Thomas, Manley, Ivanova, and youngsters like Ito and Trenary too (that is not even including World medalists like Leistner, Kondrashova, Chin, and others). She really had it all, except often competitive nerves. It is amazing this performance in the 80s won only a bronze at Worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylUfPI2dfZc&feature=related
My other main choices would be Tonya Harding and Nicole Bobek. What amazing talents both were. Bobek should have won Worlds in 95 but fell twice to lose the title. She never got another opportunity like that. Harding would have won in 91 if she didnt blow her planned triple toe-triple toe combo into a big ugly single toe soon after landing the triple axel. Both she and Yamaguchi popped the triple salchow.
I would say Janet Lynn but she was too weak in figures to win in that era. Her only real chance was 73 but Karen Magnussen did better figures, an excellent short, and split judges with Lynn in the long even though Lynn skated her best and Magnussen popped one of her double axels, so I am not sure if Janet would have won that year even had she not blew the short. Plus she faltered in only other major short program she skated at the 73 Nationals, so maybe she couldnt handle the nerves of the short program requirements either. I still understand why she is one of the most special skaters ever, and why some even today consider her the best free skater ever, but it is also easy to see how she didnt win Worlds in the confines of the time.
Sasha as annoyingly overrated she is by some of her uber fans was an excellent skater from most respects, and should have won atleast one Worlds. She was unlucky to be in the shadow of Kwan in the U.S, who had most of the same qualities, who had the advantage of being older and already an established star being Sasha even came on the scene, and who had the mental toughness edge on Sasha in crunch time. Along with the far less talented but ultra consistent Sarah Hughes. Then on the international scene
skaters like Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa who could be spectacular in winning major titles and leave no room for error, which Sasha tended to make. It is still hard to believe Shizuka won 2 major titles and Sasha none. How Sasha blew the 2006 World titles is hard to believe as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylUfPI2dfZc&feature=related
My other main choices would be Tonya Harding and Nicole Bobek. What amazing talents both were. Bobek should have won Worlds in 95 but fell twice to lose the title. She never got another opportunity like that. Harding would have won in 91 if she didnt blow her planned triple toe-triple toe combo into a big ugly single toe soon after landing the triple axel. Both she and Yamaguchi popped the triple salchow.
I would say Janet Lynn but she was too weak in figures to win in that era. Her only real chance was 73 but Karen Magnussen did better figures, an excellent short, and split judges with Lynn in the long even though Lynn skated her best and Magnussen popped one of her double axels, so I am not sure if Janet would have won that year even had she not blew the short. Plus she faltered in only other major short program she skated at the 73 Nationals, so maybe she couldnt handle the nerves of the short program requirements either. I still understand why she is one of the most special skaters ever, and why some even today consider her the best free skater ever, but it is also easy to see how she didnt win Worlds in the confines of the time.
Sasha as annoyingly overrated she is by some of her uber fans was an excellent skater from most respects, and should have won atleast one Worlds. She was unlucky to be in the shadow of Kwan in the U.S, who had most of the same qualities, who had the advantage of being older and already an established star being Sasha even came on the scene, and who had the mental toughness edge on Sasha in crunch time. Along with the far less talented but ultra consistent Sarah Hughes. Then on the international scene
skaters like Irina Slutskaya and Shizuka Arakawa who could be spectacular in winning major titles and leave no room for error, which Sasha tended to make. It is still hard to believe Shizuka won 2 major titles and Sasha none. How Sasha blew the 2006 World titles is hard to believe as well.
Last edited:
Shizuka is a much better skater than Sasha.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
In a way I sort of agree with that. As far as jump technique, jump quality, speed, power, basic skating, edge quality, Shizuka definitely is the better skater. Shizuka truly has no weaknesses other than inconsistency either. Sasha does have weaknesses.
However Sasha still had a far stronger career except for those 2 big wins of Shizuka (those 2 big wins of course ultimately give Shizuka the better career). Sasha basically won 95% of their confrontations, often by many placings, sometimes 7, 8, or more. Sasha was expected to vye for the gold in every event she was in from 2003-2006, maybe 2002 too, not neccessarily the favorite each time but a real contender for gold. Shizuka is far removed from that situation. Sasha regularly won grand prix events, and was always a top finisher in all competitions for years. Yet despite all this Sasha came 2nd to Shizuka in the 2 big events Shizuka won. Sasha also was a star from the moment she entered the senior scene almost. Shizuka was a journeywomen until 22.
That is why it is hard to believe.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
I'd say Shizuka is mentally much better than Sasha.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
Shizuka had a very unremarkable skating career, she had two great competitions when she needed them and those won her an Olympic and World gold, but other than that, her career was not the best; Sarah Hughes' even less.
Any one of the ladies mentioned could have won a world medal but I think Harding would have been my pick.
Plenty of Olympic and World Champions have had "unremarkable" careers that are similar to Shizuka's. For men careers like Button and the two Jenkins brothers have been relatively rare. Only Hamilton, Browning and Yagudin have managed to win four world titles in the last 50 years and only three other men have managed three wins (Nepala, Plushenko and Stojko). For the women, that sort of dominance is even more rare. Since Fleming, only Witt and Kwan have managed to put together such periods. It's far more common for Worlds winners to have more up and down careers or shorter periods of dominance. The fact that any skater can rise to the occasion and win a worlds or Olympics is significant and should not be dismissed as flukey simply because they did not win multiple times.
Last edited:
That's an excellent point, jcoates. And I add this: of the multiple-championship winners you cite, two of the most memorable and accomplished skaters by most people's reckonings, Browning and Kwan, did not win the OGM. In fact, Browning never won any Olympic medals. Yet they're still at the top of many people's lists, including mine. The ice, as they say, is slippery. And everyone who makes it to the top, in whatever configuration the career occurs, earns my respect.
As for Shizuka, she's an interesting example of the odd road that a good skater can take. As pangtongfan points out, she was pretty much a journeywoman skater until she was 22. But then, my goodness, did she shine! And as a pro, where expressiveness really counts, she's turned out to be quite a delight.
It's not just that. Shizuka's jump technique was so strong and varied that it's amazing so many of us didn't notice this earlier. I think it was Bartek who made a YouTube video of her triple-triples through the years. (My YouTube is shutting down my Internet today, so I can't link the video.) She didn't have just "a" triple-triple. She had several varieties. And she had them at least until her mid-twenties. Not to mention that "I'll just fold myself in half backwards" Ina Bauer. Like a reed bending in the wind; pure poetry in motion. So I'd suggest that she's more exciting than at first evident. (At least she is to me.) In a comparison with Sasha in terms of sheer on-ice personality, I don't know which I'd say was more exciting: they're both in that realm, and that's enough for me. To my mind, Arakawa was no fluke.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2003
The Sasha vs. Shizuka discussion is interesting. I saw them both live at a pro-am event shortly after 2004 Worlds. Shizuka was extremely impressive to watch. She looked every bit the world champion. I've seen Sasha live several times (mostly in shows), and, in my view, she is always good and sometimes remarkable. But I wouldn't say she has a bigger presence on the ice than Shizuka.
Shizuka's career at the top was a little short. As I recall, she only had 3 seasons at the top level: 2004, 2005, 2006, plus maybe a fourth season when she was emerging. That time frame is a little short. In the last 20 years, many female skaters have been at the top level for 4 years or longer, among them Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Chen Lu, Sasha Cohen, plus maybe Maria Butyrskaya and Carolina Kostner, and others I'm forgetting. Skaters' careers generally last longer these days (a positive development I think). So when you look at it in that light, Shizuka's top-level career was a little short. In particular, I think it was short considering her talent level. Shizuka was a great all-around skater, with very few weaknesses. This sets her apart from, say, Tara Lipinski or Sarah Hughes, who also had short careers but were maybe more limited in their skills. In my opinion Shizuka is among the all-time greats of ladies' skating, from a talent level especially, so I feel like she could have been capable of 2 or 3 World titles, in addition to the OGM.
But, back to the original topic . . . I have to go with Sasha Cohen as the greatest female skater never to win Worlds. I say this because Sasha not only had the talent to win, but also the opportunity, multiple times. Many other great skaters arguably had the talent to win Worlds but either never came close to doing so (i.e., Nikodinov, Czisny so far) or only came close once or twice (Bobek). Sasha came very close to winning many times, and she is certainly one of the most talented, memorable, and all-around great ladies skaters ever to take the ice. So my vote goes to her. (I know many others have said Janet Lynn is the greatest never to win, but I'm too young to have seen her skate, so I'll go with Cohen.)
No one's mentioned her yet, but Tanja Szewczenko is on my list of ladies who I thought might win Worlds someday but didn't. When she first came on the scene, Tanja had that special mix of charisma, artistry, and athleticism that can lead to a World title. It didn't happen, although she did win World bronze in 1994.
Shizuka's career at the top was a little short. As I recall, she only had 3 seasons at the top level: 2004, 2005, 2006, plus maybe a fourth season when she was emerging. That time frame is a little short. In the last 20 years, many female skaters have been at the top level for 4 years or longer, among them Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada, Miki Ando, Michelle Kwan, Irina Slutskaya, Chen Lu, Sasha Cohen, plus maybe Maria Butyrskaya and Carolina Kostner, and others I'm forgetting. Skaters' careers generally last longer these days (a positive development I think). So when you look at it in that light, Shizuka's top-level career was a little short. In particular, I think it was short considering her talent level. Shizuka was a great all-around skater, with very few weaknesses. This sets her apart from, say, Tara Lipinski or Sarah Hughes, who also had short careers but were maybe more limited in their skills. In my opinion Shizuka is among the all-time greats of ladies' skating, from a talent level especially, so I feel like she could have been capable of 2 or 3 World titles, in addition to the OGM.
But, back to the original topic . . . I have to go with Sasha Cohen as the greatest female skater never to win Worlds. I say this because Sasha not only had the talent to win, but also the opportunity, multiple times. Many other great skaters arguably had the talent to win Worlds but either never came close to doing so (i.e., Nikodinov, Czisny so far) or only came close once or twice (Bobek). Sasha came very close to winning many times, and she is certainly one of the most talented, memorable, and all-around great ladies skaters ever to take the ice. So my vote goes to her. (I know many others have said Janet Lynn is the greatest never to win, but I'm too young to have seen her skate, so I'll go with Cohen.)
No one's mentioned her yet, but Tanja Szewczenko is on my list of ladies who I thought might win Worlds someday but didn't. When she first came on the scene, Tanja had that special mix of charisma, artistry, and athleticism that can lead to a World title. It didn't happen, although she did win World bronze in 1994.
Shizuka's basic skating skill is probably the best I have ever seen. Look at this, two cross-overs and she was flying down the rink with her Y-spiral.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8g0ghQMLORI#t=83s
Shizuka, at her best, is probably just behind Midori Ito at her best.
Sasha is not even close to being in the top 10.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2010
I'm not counting men from over 60 years ago when competitions were rare....:sheesh:
but in Shizuka's case she had trouble even getting on top in her own country. I never dismissed Shizuka as a fluke for winning the Olympics or Worlds the only times she did; what I commented on was the rest of career (and Sarah Hughes') where she didn't quite rise to the occasion (except for the one win at NHK in 10 years in the GP)
Worlds 2003 8th
Worlds 2004 1st
Worlds 2005 9th
Worlds 2006 retired after Olympics
Even in her Olympic season she had two bronze in China and France, never got to the GPF, bronze at Nationals and gold at the Olympics when Irina and Sasha fell and she skated beautifully.
I don't know how you can say that since Sasha had a much better all-around career. Shizuka was talented but inconsistent therefore not a great skater. To be great you still have to win more then just a couple big events.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
I like Tanja but I never saw her as a future World Champion, even had she not had her many unfortunate health problems. I dont recall many outside Germany who predicted so either. Even when she first broke through as a top skater in 94 things didnt look all that promising for her. Her 94 World medal was in a seriously diluted field. Skaters her own age like Lu Chen and Oksana Baiul were about her age and already much better than she was. More distressing is that very year she came only 4th at World Juniors behind 3 younger skaters- Michelle Kwan, Kristina Czako, and Irina Slutskaya. By 96 where she came 6th at Worlds despite skating very well, she had already been far surpassed by younger skaters such as Kwan, Bobek, and Slutskaya.
Her jumps were powerful and strong at times, but not as powerful as say Slutskaya. Her consistency and technique on her jumps was never the best by any stretch. Her spins and non jump elements also could have been better. She had charisma but I dont recall her artistry ever being rated that highly, although it had improved by 96, and more by 98.
It is impossible to know what road her career might have taken without her injuries/illness, but I also cant see any year from 95-2002 where she could have been capable of winning Worlds.
So the number of competitions participated in or medals won by a skater during a season matters toward their greatness or the value of their WC or OGM? So we can discount G&G's 1989 WC since they only skated one competition. Same with Kwan's 03 title, since she only skated in the same number of events as champions from the 50's and 60's that season. Same for Grishuk/Platov at 95 Worlds (one event) and 97 Worlds (two events). Come on.
I really get tired of champions in any sport being dismissed or diminished simply because they happened to compete before the recent past. It's insulting to them and the tremendous hard work they put into their careers. So what if Button, or Fleming, or Heiss, or the Protopovs only skated 3 or 4 competitions in a season. That actually should make their consistency and dominance that much more remarkable. They had less margin for error. In the case of the singles skaters, they had one less free program to skate to prove themselves. Yes they had figures to set themselves up, but they could still lose with a poor free skate. They were all strong at both.
The vast majority of OGMs did not win while competing against competitors at the top of their games. Everyone, even the winners usually makes mistakes in the Olympic performances. Yamaguchi, Witt-both times, Hamill, Fleming, Schuba, Baiul, Hughes, and Arakawa all won over fields that made notable errors. Some of them even screwed up themselves. That does not delegitimize their wins in the slightest. Same for the men, ice dancers and especially the pairs.
Plenty of others have have shaky seasons leading up to winning suffering significant losses (Yamaguchi, Lipinski, Yagudin lost Nationals, Urmanov, Petrenko, Baiul, Lysacek, Virtue and Moir.)
As for Shizuka's previous Worlds finishes, I stand by my previous point. It's not how you start, but how you finish. Sasha is the most glaring example of that. Shizuka was clearly one of those athletes who needs more time to mature and grow into their talents. Not everyone is going to be a teen phenom and be dominant from the start or have a legendary career with tremendous longevity and consistency. Most champions have a very narrow window during which they peak which is bookended by periods of mediocre to poor results, followed by either decline or retirement. John Curry is the prime example of this. 14th, 9th, 4th, 7th, 3rd and 1st in consecutive years at Worlds. Cranston was similarly up and down (13th, 11th, 5th, 5th, 3rd, 4th, 4th). No one calls their careers disappointments, but in reality, they each had two truly standout seasons internationally. Could they have done more? Of course, but what they did do, is something every skater dreams of. The rest was simply part of the journey to get there. I say Shizuka would not have achieved what she did without having all the setbacks she endured. BTW, I was at 2003 Worlds and everyone in my section thought she was undermarked. She had out attention from the warmup with the 3-3-3 combos she was practicing right below us. She was wonderful then and you could see the potential. It just took time for it so sink in with the judges. Sometimes the placement matters less that the effort or the relative competition (03 was a very well skated event).
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
A career like Shizuka's is enormously rare. She had only two top 7 finishes at Worlds and Olympics, and both were Golds. She qualified directly for the Grand Prix final only once her whole career (the other time she skated as an alternate). From age 17 to 20 she failed to qualify for 5 straight World and Olympic events, and most presumed her career was over. She was beaten out for spots by the likes of Yoshie Onda who usually went on to place somewhere from 11th to 20th. The year before winning Worlds she placed 8th at Worlds, just between Elena Liashenko and Jennifer Robinson (both whom would be out of the top 10 by next year when she won Worlds). The year after winning Worlds and before winning Gold at the Olympics she took 9th place at Worlds, and initially announced she was retiring. The year of winning her Olympic Gold she failed to qualify for the Grand Prix final with 3rd place finishes at both her Grand Prix assignments.
It doesnt mean she isnt a great skater but lets be real here. This is not a typical Olympic and World Champion career, in fact it is the only one ever seen of such nature in the history of figure skating probably.
Last edited:
Check the post above yours, his name is John Curry.
