2024 U.S. Nationals: Women's thoughts?

[Thrashergurl]

I don’t think it’s fair to even include Russian girls in the equation, as far as progress goes, for obvious reasons.
I certainly feel the US ladies could compete with Japanese and Korean.

I feel like they have all their eggs in the Isabeau basket though, and this is discouraging to other athletes that have better, more sustainable technique.

 

[skatesofgold]

I'm concerned that even Belgium is surpassing the US given the population differential.

 

[moonvine]

Question now.

Does the USFSA tell athletes their assignments before releasing to public and if so how far in advance does the skaters know?
Ava hinted at it when she is assign to NHK. She had no assignments until pull out
Did Amber WD from 4cc knowing she is named to world team that she doesn't need the points 4cc and not because it is close.?
Did Isabeau mess up program knowing had world team or another reason that no one mentioning but is visible in warm up
What did Amber tell Isabeau backstage is it help or I got world to or to apologize for the almost collision in warmup.
?
Amber clearly almost collide I warmup prior to last group taking the ice with a skater with a USFSa jacket on?
I didn't think it is Isabeau because they showed Isabeau skating and jumping without her jacket in her outfit.
The women team was a forgone conclusion before nationals. Isabeau was one and Amber next but Amber depended on how she placed . The title didn't play into it . She only needed 2 ND or third.
Did Ava wd knowing she isn't named world team before nationals.?
Amber congratulations on win that had help winning.
Josephine great skate and keep impressing.
Sarah Everhart keep impressing and great skate.
Clare third and Lindsay sixth. Did they skate according to bring non picked.

It seems the women and the US skaters as a whole isn't skating up to their potential. Why ? Some many reasons possibilities to name and discuss.

All I know for sure is that they text the athletes if they make the Olympic team. That's per Adam Rippon's book. I don't know if they tell them before other assignments or not. My guess is yes.

I don't think Isabeau messed up her program on purpose. She was visibly distraught after she skated.

I think one of the reasons some don't skate up to their potential is money, sadly. I could be wrong.

I'm not sure why Ava would WD from Nationals due to not being named to World Team. I don't think they've named world team and I'm sure they didn't name it before Nationals. How embarrassing would it be if they had named, say, Camden and he ended up in 12th or something? The only reason they named 4CCs before Nationals is because they start in 3 days and visas have to be gotten and whatnot. I don't think Amber would have withdrawn from 4CCS if she didn't make the World Team.

Well those are all the answers/guesses I have.

 

[FlossieH]

Question now.

Does the USFSA tell athletes their assignments before releasing to public and if so how far in advance does the skaters know?
Ava hinted at it when she is assign to NHK. She had no assignments until pull out

Ava was selected for the NHK Trophy by the hosts (the Japanese Fed). USFS had nothing to do with the decision. If they had, I'm not sure she would have gone. Ava would have known that she was on the replacements list because that is the top 10 ranked skaters with fewer than two assignments who represent countries which do not already have 3 skaters at the event.

 

[16Olympics]

Isabeau and Amber named to World Team.

 

[SmileHappy34]

The women shows great depth for future if stay in and healthy. If they women try as you call the ultra c .
We have depth that I didn't think the U S. Had.
They show great potential.

 

[yelyoh]

Isabeau and Amber named to World Team.

Where are the announcements re teams for Worlds both Sr and Jr? Thanks.

 

[icewhite]

I hope people don't take this as nastyness, because I'm really just trying to write about how I see it.
The situation in US and Canadian skating does not look good at all, apart from ice dance, which is thriving. From what I can gather synchro and solo ice dance are also very popular.
I agree that looking at Russia does only make sense in a very limited way. I find it more interesting to look at Japan, Korea, France and Italy...

Overall it seems clear to me that in North America and Europe ice dance is the thriving discipline. There is not just one top team on each continent, there is a broader base of really strong teams. Single skaters on the other hand are - if I'm just looking at the availability of skating classes, coaches, rinks, the talent pool - nowhere where I would expect them to be in North America (if we exclude Ilia Malinin) and kind of average in Europe (although not as bad if we look at said factors again).
In South Korea and Japan on the other hand single skating is blooming, there is such depth in both male and female skaters in Japan, and at least depth in women's in Korea. Dance and pairs on the other hand - we cannot say that there is a broad base.

So, apparently people either go to ice dance in North America (and Europe) already in the first place, or they switch later. I would guess that the tough jumping drill that is required or expected from an early age on to be a single's skater is just not something that aligns very well with our modern "western" societies. But the quality of the jumping coaching seems also extremely important and one has to wonder about that.

Regarding pairs so many here say there are young and promising teams who just need more time etc... but what I see is that apart from Russia no country has strong pairs at all. The situation is really bad. To me this still looks like a dying discipline. Maybe that's just the way it is. Maybe there are just not enough boys to start skating who are interested in becoming a pairs guy, maybe there are not enough girls willing to take on the huge risks this discipline brings to them, maybe you are either really good at jumps or you become an ice dancer - why become a pairs skater dependent on a partner in the first place - maybe there are not enough good coaches around - maybe this discipline just needs a general overhaul.

US women's looks clearly better than US men's if we look at it from a structural point of view and are not blinded by a few stand out skaters. (Chen, Malinin, Brown). I wonder what the ratio of young girls and boys taking up skating is and how many continue as teenagers.

That's where I'm at as a try to be neutral viewer.

 

[labgoat]

I have some comments on Isabeau. First I really liked both her programs and her style and attention to detail are very special. I am not going to say much about her jumps other than she did seem to be making some progress until the FS. Regarding the spins, in the SP, same as the GPF, I think that the perfectionist she is simply overextended her position trying to get the feature. She just needs to make sure she doesn't overdo it and that issue will be fixed. In the free skate it looked like she ran out of gas for the spins.

I am more concerned about how weak she looked at times in this skate. It is hard to defend a title and that certainly brings its own stress and imagine she felt very tight and unable to move from nerves and tension. I know she trains very hard and am wondering if maybe it is too hard at times as she seems to get sick often and require a lot of rest. I wonder if she is eating enough for the demands of her training. I am thinking about Tanith Belbin and how she got stronger after being told to gain some weight in order to improve her strength and stamina to get through her programs. I may be way off base and am not implying an eating disorder in any way so please don't assume that is where I was going with this. I just think she needs some strength and stamina and it has to come from somewhere.

Isabeau - I mean this kindly and will be rooting hard for you at Worlds so take care of yourself and I'll be cheering you on! As Dick Button said every champion has one event that they entirely mess up. Remember what tries to kill you makes you stronger!

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Amber Glenn finished her free program with great difficulty. If she does the same at the worlds, the judges will not forgive her. I don’t understand why she doesn’t want to transfer her 3A to the short program. This would immediately add points to her and give her the opportunity to save energy in the free program. Isabeau's situation is even worse - it looks like she has some big problems with her legs (hips, knees, ligaments, muscles - I don't know what exactly). Her falls were very unusual. It would be better for her to undergo the most detailed medical examination possible, rather than compete. And Ziegler could have been sent to the worlds instead Levito.

Overall, the tournament did not make a good impression. Especially the choreography. The skaters couldn’t keep up with the slow music even, and their hand movements looked extremely unprofessional. Of course, I understand that athletes from a banned country are to blame for this, but nevertheless the fact remains a fact. In general, with such a team, the United States may lose the second quota.

 

[bostonskaterguy86]

I hope Isabeau's team uses this as an object lesson in the importance of reliable jump technique. She has squeaked by so far on rotational speed, but it seems like this is letting her down now. All three of her falls happened because she was just barely squeezing out her rotations, and either underrotated, or landed on her heel because she checked out too late to get her toe down and establish a landing edge.

She's got so many amazing qualities, both as a skater and as a person. It would be a shame for her enormous potential to go unrealized. She'd get such better and more consistent results with better jump technique - not to mention it would be better for her physical health to reduce the stress that falls and unstable landings put on her body.

 

[icewhite]

I hope Isabeau's team uses this as an object lesson in the importance of reliable jump technique. She has squeaked by so far on rotational speed, but it seems like this is letting her down now. All three of her falls happened because she was just barely squeezing out her rotations, and either underrotated, or landed on her heel because she checked out too late to get her toe down and establish a landing edge.

She's got so many amazing qualities, both as a skater and as a person. It would be a shame for her enormous potential to go unrealized. She'd get such better and more consistent results with better jump technique - not to mention it would be better for her physical health to reduce the stress that falls and unstable landings put on her body.

I don't know why her parents have not insisted on a coaching change a long time ago. That woman sounds terrible and she obviously teaches bad technique.

 

[YuBluByMe]

The situation in US and Canadian skating does not look good at all, apart from ice dance, which is thriving. From what I can gather synchro and solo ice dance are also very popular.
I agree that looking at Russia does only make sense in a very limited way. I find it more interesting to look at Japan, Korea, France and Italy...

It’s the emergence of Korea’s single skaters that’s more indicative that there is something wrong with the North America system because unlike Russia and Japan, Korea is a small federation and was never a factor in the sport in the past. (How popular is figure skating in Korea?) It wasn’t that long ago when Korea women were not competitive at all and Dabin Choi was the sole entry at Worlds. Now Korea has maximum spots and are definitely ahead of the North America women.

As for the Korean men, I posted on here maybe two or three years ago that Cha Junhwan is in a position to call KFed bluff and play hardball by just not showing up to some of their frequent and untimely domestic competitions as he’s the only internationally competitive man they can even send to the big competitions. This is no longer true; the junior men even outshined the Japanese on the JGP this year. In a few more years, they’ll be more competitive than the American men on the senior circuit, as well.

Obviously Kim Yuna and Cha Junhwan played a huge part in this, but the program took years to develop. As the saying goes, “it takes a giant,” but why aren’t we seeing this sort of development in North America? What does a small federation have that the much bigger feds do not? It sure isn’t money so it’s something else.

US women's looks clearly better than US men's if we look at it from a structural point of view and are not blinded by a few stand out skaters. (Chen, Malinin, Brown).

I disagree. I think the US men are much stronger than the women. The issue with the men is that there’s a steep drop-off after Ilia and behind him there’s a handful of men that have the same Worlds top-10 scoring potential but are hot messes on the ice. (Quite similar to the Russian men’s field actually.) The depth is there, but the consistency isn’t. The junior men are good, too.

But the women….it’s not just lack of consistency. They’re behind technically and I’m not just talking about jumps. I’m also talking about program composition. Thorngren and Levito have the right idea and look who’s coaching them. Overall, though, I’m not seeing the same depth in the women’s and I see very little development in the junior ranks.

 

[16Olympics]

Where are the announcements re teams for Worlds both Sr and Jr? Thanks.

I haven't seen the juniors yet but I believe they will be announced this weekend after the YOG.

I saw the world team in all 4 disciplines at GS World Championships 2024 Entries.

 

[yelyoh]

I haven't seen the juniors yet but I believe they will be announced this weekend after the YOG.

I saw the world team in all 4 disciplines at GS World Championships 2024 Entries.

Thanks!

 

[gkelly]

US women's looks clearly better than US men's if we look at it from a structural point of view and are not blinded by a few stand out skaters. (Chen, Malinin, Brown). I wonder what the ratio of young girls and boys taking up skating is and how many continue as teenagers.

I don't know how to find numbers for beginning levels.

On this season's National Qualifying Series, there were 228 Juvenile Girls and 65 Juvenile Boys in the final standings.

Intermediate: 304 and 60
Novice: 172 and 42
Junior: 125 and 37
Senior: 83 and 24

At the higher levels, that's not counting skaters who have byes, which would be approximately the same for both genders.

Or skaters in the couples disciplines, which would be evenly split. Although probably more boys than girls do both pairs (or dance) and singles.

Solo dance, synchro, and showcase would probably be even more skewed toward female participants.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Lindsay IMO was the most well rounded skater at US Nats. I’m not sure anyone was on the same level as her in terms of skating skills and I’m confident that she had the best transitions. I’ve been watching old videos of her and you can see that she has always had amazing poise and moves with a subtle and confident grace throughout her choreography. I avoid making predictions about skater’s futures and I don’t think there is a correct technique for all but with that said…..I truly think Lindsay has built herself a very good foundation and reliable technique and has a very real opportunity to blossom into a US National Champion one day! I’d love to see it.

My only red flag with her is that she seems rather emotional after her performances and Emo skaters tend to struggle with consistency.

Wishing the best for her and lots of future success!

 

[icewhite]

It’s the emergence of Korea’s single skaters that’s more indicative that there is something wrong with the North America system because unlike Russia and Japan, Korea is a small federation and was never a factor in the sport in the past. (How popular is figure skating in Korea?) It wasn’t that long ago when Korea women were not competitive at all and Dabin Choi was the sole entry at Worlds. Now Korea has maximum spots and are definitely ahead of the North America women.

As for the Korean men, I posted on here maybe two or three years ago that Cha Junhwan is in a position to call KFed bluff and play hardball by just not showing up to some of their frequent and untimely domestic competitions as he’s the only internationally competitive man they can even send to the big competitions. This is no longer true; the junior men even outshined the Japanese on the JGP this year. In a few more years, they’ll be more competitive than the American men on the senior circuit, as well.

Obviously Kim Yuna and Cha Junhwan played a huge part in this, but the program took years to develop. As the saying goes, “it takes a giant,” but why aren’t we seeing this sort of development in North America? What does a small federation have that the much bigger feds do not? It sure isn’t money so it’s something else.



I disagree. I think the US men are much stronger than the women. The issue with the men is that there’s a steep drop-off after Ilia and behind him there’s a handful of men that have the same Worlds top-10 scoring potential but are hot messes on the ice. (Quite similar to the Russian men’s field actually.) The depth is there, but the consistency isn’t. The junior men are good, too.

But the women….it’s not just lack of consistency. They’re behind technically and I’m not just talking about jumps. I’m also talking about program composition. Thorngren and Levito have the right idea and look who’s coaching them. Overall, though, I’m not seeing the same depth in the women’s and I see very little development in the junior ranks.

I have wanted to make a much longer post on all of this (structures in different countries) for ages because I find it really interesting, but... well. One thing though, the Russian men are going strong at the moment. If we take the new age limit into regard I'd say the situation for the Russian men looks better than that of the women. There were 18 guys with quads at Russian nationals - despite some being injured. Some just go yolo with very unstable quads, but there are about 10 guys with multiple relatively stable quads. Usually with decent to very good technique. Plus they often have interesting programs.
Among the US men I do not see great potential for a top 10 scoring apart from the 3 medalists, honestly.

Among the women Glenn, Thorngren and Ziegler look very good to me. I have no idea where Levito's journey will go, honestly.
I wonder if the US also needs to focus more on long term development of their female athletes. Glenn is a nice example that things sometimes need time. I also like her programs this season.

I really need to put in the work for a real thread...

 

[Steinbeck]

That woman sounds terrible and she obviously teaches bad technique.

This is over the top. This coach raised Isabeau into an incredibly special performer. So much so that domestic/international judging doesn't just ignore her flutz/ur/unaesthetic jumps but gives her high GOEs on them. That's kind of a backhanded compliment, I know, and I'm not saying that's ok. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. If there's a jump coach to ADD who can tweak her jump technique just enough without upending her altogether (a tough task after so many years jumping the same way), now that would be good. But calling Isabeau's coach "terrible" is unfair IMO.

Congrats to Mia on the quad - she's such a puzzlement as the quad toe seems so easy for her and yet she struggles with other jumps. Hope she can work on that as well as her artistry and then she'd be a force to reckon with.

In her FS, which was by far more difficult and demanding than anyone else's, Mia had zero URs, zero pops, and just one fall at the very end when we can reasonably assume her legs were dead. She did a clean quad in the first half, and in the second half did a clean 3Lz3T with +GOEs, along with a 3F2A with +GOEs, all of which were pretty nice quality.

That's a lot of solid jumping. Seems unfair to expect absolute perfection just because she has a nice quad. I agree with @katymay that Mia has improved a lot.

 

[icewhite]

This is over the top. This coach raised Isabeau into an incredibly special performer. So much so that domestic/international judging doesn't just ignore her flutz/ur/unaesthetic jumps but gives her high GOEs on them. That's kind of a backhanded compliment, I know, and I'm not saying that's ok. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. If there's a jump coach to ADD who can tweak her jump technique just enough without upending her altogether (a tough task after so many years jumping the same way), now that would be good. But calling Isabeau's coach "terrible" is unfair IMO.

I say terrible in regards to her character because I read two interviews and I would never let my child train with that woman after that.