Blade Swap Issue

[Alberstol]

So after this disaster I got myself a new pair of blades and thought I'd be able to just swap them out.

One side mounted fine but the other one won't lie flat, whereas the old blade did without issue. Comparing the blades, the old one is definitely slightly curved relative to the new one (and they are both P99 10.5"). Is this a natural result of the blade bending from being mounted, or could the blades legitimately not be made the same shape?

Old


New

 

[tstop4me]

Along the axis you're concerned with, it's highly unlikely that the blade would deform to conform to the boot; it's more likely that the boot would deform to conform to the blade. So you need to investigate whether there was a mismatch in your first pair of blades. I.e., if one of your first blades were messed up, then the mounting process could have messed up that boot.

(1) Layout sheets of white paper on a flat surface (e.g., glass table or stone kitchen countertop). Place your old blades on the sheets, and check for differences in geometry between the left and right blades.

(2) Now do the same for the new pair of blades.

 

[High Carbon]

I agree with @tstop4me, it is likely that your boot may have conformed to the old blade. The soles of the boots change over time with skating on them and may not conform to a new blade quite as easily. All blades follow an industry standard 65 foot rocker profile for the mounting plates. While it is unlikely the new blade is not a standard 65 foot radius it is not impossible, however the likelihood is greater that 65 foot rocker profile of the sole of the boot may have changed with use and needs to conform to the new blade. It shouldn't cause any issue so long as a knowledgeable technician mounts them in a way that allows the boot to conform to the new blade without torqueing the blade when it is fixed to the boots. Over time the boot will shape to the blade.

 

[Alberstol]

I agree with @tstop4me, it is likely that your boot may have conformed to the old blade. The soles of the boots change over time with skating on them and may not conform to a new blade quite as easily. All blades follow an industry standard 65 foot rocker profile for the mounting plates. While it is unlikely the new blade is not a standard 65 foot radius it is not impossible, however the likelihood is greater that 65 foot rocker profile of the sole of the boot may have changed with use and needs to conform to the new blade. It shouldn't cause any issue so long as a knowledgeable technician mounts them in a way that allows the boot to conform to the new blade without torqueing the blade when it is fixed to the boots. Over time the boot will shape to the blade.

Take a look at these additional pictures showing the toe plates. Can you see that for the new blades, the one on the right doesn't curve up as high as the others, and also is literally almost flattened near the pick-end?

Old


New

 

[tstop4me]

OK. From what you've posted so far:

(1) The old right blade mates to the right boot reasonably.

(2) The old left blade mates to the left boot reasonably.

(3) The new right blade does not mate to the right boot reasonably.

(4) The new left blade mates to the left boot reasonably.

(5) With respect to the longitudinal (toe-to-heel) geometry, the old right blade, the old left blade, and the new left blade appear to be similar. The new right blade appears to be out of whack.

Let's do another quick series of tests to confirm. Here we are concerned with the longitudinal geometry. So we should be able to interchange left and right blades to check how well they mate with the boots.

(a) On the right boot, individually place each of the four blades [old right, old left, new right, new left] on the boot and check to see how well each mates.

(b) On the left boot, do the same.

If all pans out, three blades [old right, old left, new left] will all mate reasonably on both the right and the left boots. One blade [new right] will not mate reasonably with the right boot, and will not mate reasonably with the left boot. If so, we can rule out irregularity with the right boot (either as manufactured or through subsequent deformation), and conclude there is in fact an irregularity with the new right blade.

 

[thisismynewsport]

Look at Jackson’s new Instagram post.

 

[tstop4me]

All blades follow an industry standard 65 foot rocker profile for the mounting plates.

Look at Jackson’s new Instagram post.

The Jackson post references an industry standard 65' radius mounting profile for the boot and blade. @High Carbon, you previously referenced such a standard. Do you have a citation to this industry standard? I did a web search and didn't find one.

 

[High Carbon]

The Jackson post references an industry standard 65' radius mounting profile for the boot and blade. @High Carbon, you previously referenced such a standard. Do you have a citation to this industry standard? I did a web search and didn't find one.

Jackson emailed all dealers addressing issues with sole to blade fittings and referenced this industry standard for all blades of all makers. I saw this post as well and it was well after we all got this email. I'm not sure if or how many blades or boots that are slightly off make it past inspection at any given maker's facility but I've seen some corrections for these gaps either adjusted by the technician or adapted to after skating on the blades long enough. But the gaps I've seen have been perhaps only a millimeter or two and only at the toe. I haven't come across a new blade or boot that doesn't hold up to industry standards. Old blades and boots (especially boots) I have seen deform over years and years of use.

 

[tstop4me]

Jackson emailed all dealers addressing issues with sole to blade fittings and referenced this industry standard for all blades of all makers. I saw this post as well and it was well after we all got this email. I'm not sure if or how many blades or boots that are slightly off make it past inspection at any given maker's facility but I've seen some corrections for these gaps either adjusted by the technician or adapted to after skating on the blades long enough. But the gaps I've seen have been perhaps only a millimeter or two and only at the toe. I haven't come across a new blade or boot that doesn't hold up to industry standards. Old blades and boots (especially boots) I have seen deform over years and years of use.

Thanks for this response. But before you got this email, were you aware there was an industry standard? Or was Jackson's email the first time you heard about it? Besides Jackson, has any other boot or blade manufacturer referenced this standard? Do you know when this standard was issued?

I ask, because I'm familiar with Sid Broadbent's work (in the late 1980's) to overcome the disparities between boot geometries and blade mounting geometries (http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/COPLANAR_SKATEBLADES.html). At least at that time, there was no industry standard as far as he could determine. He proposed a simpler coplanar geometry, which as far as I can tell, was unfortunately never adopted by any manufacturer.

Did Jackson give a citation to the actual industry standard, i.e., the governing standards body and the standard number? Do you know when this standard was issued? E.g., for steel, there are various national standards bodies (such as ANSI in the US) and various industry organizations (such as SAE, AISI, and ASTM in the US) that issue standards. ISO typically issues standards for which there is agreement among major national standards organizations of different countries. I'm curious as to which organization coordinated this standard among boot and blade manufacturers from several countries. Typically not an easy task.

 

[High Carbon]

Thanks for this response. But before you got this email, were you aware there was an industry standard? Or was Jackson's email the first time you heard about it? Besides Jackson, has any other boot or blade manufacturer referenced this standard? Do you know when this standard was issued?

I ask, because I'm familiar with Sid Broadbent's work (in the late 1980's) to overcome the disparities between boot geometries and blade mounting geometries (http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/COPLANAR_SKATEBLADES.html). At least at that time, there was no industry standard as far as he could determine. He proposed a simpler coplanar geometry, which as far as I can tell, was unfortunately never adopted by any manufacturer.

Did Jackson give a citation to the actual industry standard, i.e., the governing standards body and the standard number? Do you know when this standard was issued? E.g., for steel, there are various national standards bodies (such as ANSI in the US) and various industry organizations (such as SAE, AISI, and ASTM in the US) that issue standards. ISO typically issues standards for which there is agreement among major national standards organizations of different countries. I'm curious as to which organization coordinated this standard among boot and blade manufacturers from several countries. Typically not an easy task.

Jackson did cite that every blade company regardless of maker does adhere to a 65' rocker for the mounting plates and that Jackson adheres to the same radius for their soles. While I haven't seen anything about other boot companies I think its a reasonable assumption that Edea, Risport, Reidell, Harlic, etc. hold to the same standard for the sake of easy universality. The email did not cite when or who standardized it, just that all blade companies adhere to it. I'm more curious now too when the standard was issued and by who. My guess would be MK Wilson since they're the most popular blade world wide and are a blade only company. And being the oldest blade company and based out of England I believe they standardized the blade sizes with the imperial system. It would make sense that boot companies would hold to the blade standard as, to my knowledge so far, Jackson Ultima is the only company that produces both boots and blades.
But I do know of Sid, he actually taught my own mentor Bruce Hurd. A lot of the knowledge and skills I have are due to his pioneering in the craft and I do a lot of my work with his machine. I do know Bruce knows a number of the higher ups at HD Sports (MK, John Wilson) I can ask him if he knows when and who standardized the plate radius.

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks for your detailed response. I'd be interested if you track down further details of the 65' standard.

My guess would be MK Wilson since they're the most popular blade world wide and are a blade only company.

Ah, but hasn't that changed now? Didn't Wilson recently buy Aura?

It would make sense that boot companies would hold to the blade standard as, to my knowledge so far, Jackson Ultima is the only company that produces both boots and blades.

But doesn't Riedell own (and design?) the Eclipse blade line, even though they don't do the actual manufacturing? Until recently, Riedell outsourced manufacture of their Eclipse blades to Step; but a tech I know told me that Step stopped the manufacturing arrangement since CCM bought up both Step and Jackson. I don't know whether Riedell has found a new manufacturer.

It's difficult to achieve standardization when some companies manufacture only boots and other manufacturers manufacture only blades. [An analogous situation is the number of hotdogs in a package not matching the number of buns in a package, because one set of companies makes hotdogs and another set of companies makes buns.] I was hoping that with Jackson/Ultima and Riedell/Eclipse marketing both boots and blades, there would be hope for Sid's coplanar design. But maybe not.

 

[High Carbon]

Thanks for your detailed response. I'd be interested if you track down further details of the 65' standard.


Ah, but hasn't that changed now? Didn't Wilson recently buy Aura?



But doesn't Riedell own (and design?) the Eclipse blade line, even though they don't do the actual manufacturing? Until recently, Riedell outsourced manufacture of their Eclipse blades to Step; but a tech I know told me that Step stopped the manufacturing arrangement since CCM bought up both Step and Jackson. I don't know whether Riedell has found a new manufacturer.

It's difficult to achieve standardization when some companies manufacture only boots and other manufacturers manufacture only blades. [An analogous situation is the number of hotdogs in a package not matching the number of buns in a package, because one set of companies makes hotdogs and another set of companies makes buns.] I was hoping that with Jackson/Ultima and Riedell/Eclipse marketing both boots and blades, there would be hope for Sid's coplanar design. But maybe not.

I'll definitely see what more I can find out about the mounting plate rocker standardization! As of right now the only information that I have down solid is that there is a standard but you brought up some great questions I'd also like to get more insight on! I'm getting myself a plate rocker gauge so I can periodically check all boots and blades to see that they are at least consistent with a 65' rocker. Companies can say or not say whatever they do but nothing like cold hard data to confirm everything!
I wasn't aware until now that Wilson had bought Aura. Until now I was under the impression they were owned by TRUE which also manufactures hockey skates and is based out of Canada. To my knowledge that is still true unless you have some novel information on the business aspects of these companies. I don't stay completely up to date on what company owns what other companies. I didn't actually know that CCM bought Jackson. I did hear through the grape vine that Jackson's factories are in China now. I'm not sure how many other companies outsource their manufacturing to China but I do know that Reidell, Edea, and Risport are still made in their own countries. Graff is Swiss but I'm not sure where their factories are. I was bummed to find out Jackson outsources it's manufacturing to China. They're still great boots that I'll still happily skate in but I do also appreciate when manufacturing happens within the company's own country. But CCM owning Jackson would explain the outsourcing. I'm confident CCM and Bauer outsource their skate manufacturing overseas.

 

[High Carbon]

Take a look at these additional pictures showing the toe plates. Can you see that for the new blades, the one on the right doesn't curve up as high as the others, and also is literally almost flattened near the pick-end?

Old


New

So to me it looks that indeed the one blade hasn't taken the toe plate curve. I do see this on the rare occasion with full steel blades. It's never really been any issue unless the gap at the toe has been excessive, beyond 3 or 4mm for the gap. With enough use I've seen toe plates warp in all sorts of weird ways. One even broke at the junction of the second stanchion and the toe plate itself. They were of course replaced as blades shouldn't ever break under normal use but it's not impossible that they can. But I do see how the one blade of the new pair is a touch flatter. I believe that plate will conform to the boot with use, I don't think it's too great a deviation. I mounted a pair with a similar deviation and after the skater was on it for a while it conformed to the proper curvature. But if you're willing to go through the hassel, it never hurts to check with the John Wilson company itself to see if there was a manufacturing fluke