Dance and Lines in Figure Skating

[chopinskate]

And also some spin positions, but other times too much turnout can interfere with spin technique. Not to mention jump technique.

How does it interfere?

 

[IndiaP12]

Just go to my sister if you have questions about ballet [emoji23] she would lowkey do a good job of coaching skaters in ballet haha

 

[gkelly]

How does it interfere?

On the entry to a scratch spin, forward or backward, the free leg starts behind on the preceding edge and then comes to the side but slightly in front when the skater makes the three turn.

Searching youtube for videos of forward and backward scratch spin instruction, I found some that talk about the three turn and the entry edge, not so much about the free leg position except sometimes to say it should be at about a 45 degree angle, and sometimes about keeping the hips square.

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1l74crJTSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZjTbmFRpEE

Once you start pulling in the arms and free leg and then straightening the free foot down toward the spinning foot to gain speed, you want the position to be as tight as possible to get maximum speed. The knees would be together in the final position, which would not be the case in a ballet turn.

Here's Dorothy Hamill showing a masterful scratch spin with Lussi technique -- her free leg is further forward than 45 degrees turnout. Other skaters hold their free leg further to the side, but not as far as a ballet dancer would.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2VuosSk9zU

Scratch spin by ballerina/skater Katherine Healy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7dmGHb1o-4&t=3m06s
Note that she is not turning out her free leg in a skating spin the same way she would in a ballet pirouette

 

[Sai Bon]

Oh no, I read "deep plies" as "deep piles"
Thanks guys for technical info on ballet/dance. Very educational!

 

[Izabela]

On the subject of attempting to translate dance to ice... I am generally not a fan for several reasons, firstly (and perhaps unkindly), most skaters simply don't have the requisite training to pull it off. Alina's program was mentioned somewhere on the thread, and it's a good example of a skater trying very hard to "be balletic" without really being able to. And that's not a reflection on her alone; it was also the program itself. Movements that would look fluid on a stage with a trained dancer look really choppy on the ice. Carolina's modern program (was it last year? I can't remember) was, however, an example of a dance-like program I thought was done very well.

Skating and dancing are also different enough that movements don't translate well. Ballet music is also set in such a way that it suits dance timing and rhythms, which don't always work with skating rhythms. It winds up looking oddly misplaced/mismatched. Someone mentioned too that music from traditional ballets is quite grand, and skaters seem to forget that it's usually adult professional dancers (soloists and principals no less), who tend to have the kind of skill that allows them to not be swallowed up by such large music.

I've been really mulling over this for quite some time now (and even PMd you about this), but to wrestle on this, I think this can only hold true if we define dancing in terms of established forms and positions, rather than in what ways can skaters translate/express their emotion through their body. Perhaps in a sport as this, having the proper form is better because it's relatively easy to measure, yet and here is the contraction, as figure skating is also a performance, how can we account for the reaction of the audience and the effectiveness of skater to express emotion (or music) through the use of their body, regardless of whether they follow the proper form of dancing (in whatever genre)? I have seen skaters who appear to be like ballerina on ice, (even without being balletic), because their body express that kind of grandiosity we associate with ballet. I think "translate" is not the proper word here, because it doesn't necessarily have to mean to imitate the positions and forms down to the T for their own sake, but to transform and even deconstruct the dance to make it look natural on ice.

(And probably we can say someday that there is a dance genre created that is exclusively for skating )

 

[Haleth]

Thanks for this, too! Yes, I do sometimes find it weird that some claim it's a foundation for all dance. Of course it wouldn't be a foundation for folk dances from, say, Asia. Also, while standard and latin ballroom likely draw from ballet technique at this point (at least for ease of movement, arm placement, lines, etc.), the roots of latin are definitely not based on ballet, as far as I know.

Speaking of Asia, and let me know if this is OT because the OP was talking about Western forms of dance, one of the things that struck me recently re: Yuzuru's Seimei is the drawing on different Japanese movement vocabularies. Not just the movements such as the opening pose, which are tied to the ritual of exorcism as performed in the movie, but a certain quieter passage that leapt out at me because it reminded me of classical dancing I've seen done by geisha/geiko but iirc also by dancing onnagata performers in kabuki. I'll have to look up videos, but the what I informally call "sleevework" combined with a soft downward, almost coy glance was one of those moments that grabbed my attention.

Keeping this short in case it is deemed OT...

 

[chopinskate]

Not OT at all, IMO! It should definitely be discussed in the context of expanding dance presentations in FS.

 

[sillyant]

How does having good turn out affect skating? I can see the use of deep knees/plie, but what does turnout do?

I am no dancer. Am a baby adult skater (started several years ago).

I find that turn out helps me to gain a better range of movement. It also helps stabilising me when gliding on edge. It makes the curve much more controlled. (otherwise, I will be hurled into a floppy tornado)


The stretch helps with gaining speed or sometimes I use as an anchor for balance . But I must admitted that there are times the stretch of the free leg is in the way of a transition. The stretch of the shoulders are always good though. Otherwise, the upper body is floppy making the blades hard to control where to go. And floppy upper body tends to dissipate all the momentum gained during set-up, resulting a very weak transition.

Btw, I reallly like this thread. Learnt a lot today reading it

 

[gkelly]

Ice dance is all about translating social floor dances to the ice.

Or at least that's how it started. For the past ~35 years the free dance has sometimes been freer than that, often skaters creating dances purely based on skating vocabulary.

But it's always about expression of rhythmic music through skating.

Some dance rhythms translate to skating movement easier than others. Gliding and turning are great for skating. Up-and-down movement, very staccato movement, moves that need to take place in one spot or with both feet on the floor/ice are less useful for skating, or skating is less useful for performing those styles. They can make great highlight moves but it's hard to sustain them throughout a skating program.

And of course ice dance as a competitive discipline is performed in male-female couples and therefore is best at translating off-ice dances also performed in couples.

 

[eppen]

Keep in mind that good skating technique involves gliding smoothly on edges on one foot at a time. Skaters will include a lot of that kind of locomotion in their competitive programs because that is what is rewarded in the scoring. They'll also include a lot of crossovers and similar simple stroking to gain speed for jumps. They'll do what they can with the upper body and free leg to try to match the musical style and just generally to make the simple skating look interesting and attractive.

Dancing on the ice with moves that rely a lot on having two feet on the ice or a lot of up-and-down movement that impedes horizontal flow, or really any staccato movements, will need to be used sparingly in a competitive program. They may add to the Interpretation and other program component scores, but to the extent they detract from the Skating Skills score or get in the way of executing the elements, they would be more likely to lead to lower overall scores than overuse of non-gliding moves.

In a show program, there's no need to worry about scores so anything goes.

Sure, am fully aware that only very few skaters could get away with something like the Denis Ten show routine in a competitive setting. Ten himself included - he needs a lot of time to set up jumps and usually does not do a lot performing during the jump passes. Florent Amodio tried to incorporate dance moves into his competition programs and he did most of just what gkelly described - stopped in one place and did the dance moves stationary. Then he continued with the elements which usually meant hardly any choreography or transitions. The audiences usually loved the dance moves, but for me they were always a bit of a letdown because he was unable to incorporate them into his actual skating.

The most exciting thing for me is when a choreography manages to combine a dance style with the essential parts of figure skating - glide, speed, flow. It does not happen very often.

E

 

[Vera Costa]

Something I thought would maybe be slightly relevant to the discussion here:

Ice dancers Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir prepare for a very different next act

“The impetus for our movement as a pair should be quite similar to that of the ballroom world,” said Virtue. “But we have just that forward-backward plane of motion with our blades. It’s very tough to transfer ballroom technique onto the ice, to give the illusion of the proper hip motion and position, with the speed and glide of the blade.

“You have to figure out how to incorporate the lateral movement and still keep the flow and integrity of the skating,” she said. “We try to give the effect of ballroom, but we often have to get there through very different means.”

“We always claim that we do contemporary stuff, but don’t really,” Moir said, of their competitive routines.

Virtue started studying ballet, “my first love,” as a girl, going to summer classes at the National Ballet School, where she was eventually offered a place as a full-time student. By that time, she had already committed to skating with Moir, and decided that ballet would be better as a second pursuit. “But it was disheartening, because skating trains the opposite muscles,” she said. “My proficiency with ballet was on a steep decline the more I skated.”

 

[colormyworld240]

Oh, yes, arabesques are not really done. But why would you not classify the back charlotte spiral as arabesque penche with the upper body reaching your legs, then? Though it does look more like a Yoga pose.

Wouldn't the bent leg be an interpretation of arabesque in attitude? (I don't remember how it looked though)

I didn't know it was called a needle! The people on that show called it an assisted arabesque penche https://youtu.be/Ar_N_miwCGI?t=1m45s

I know it's not in classical ballet, that dancer is a jazz/contemporary dancer. What's a Kerrigan, then?

Maybe Charlotte is pence with upper body reaching legs, but that is never done in ballet itself. I like the way it looks on ice because of the blinding motion, but I think in dance it would look quite strange. And yes bent leg is probably their interpretation of attitude position, but also in dance we never grab the "free leg" with hand. But I see why they do it; in dance you hit these positions but you never really hold them for a long time like they in skating, it's probably impossible to hold a pose on point shoes for as long as skaters glide with the pose, so they need assistance to hold the leg, especially for arabesque. Penche seems easier for skaters. Kerrigan is somewhere in between, again with different position of torso. Overall, I love seeing variations on dance positions in figure skating! But you have to think about it as they're doing "dance interpretation on ice" or specifically ballet interpretation. It's hard to look at it from a balletic perspective because in ballet everything is very precise and for the positions, they are either correct or incorrect. So a lot of the things they do on ice are cringey if you try to look for real ballet positions, so it depends on how you look at it. I've grown to enjoy "ballet references" more and more. I used to really dislike the Charlotte. But some things I just don't like, like the "arabesque" with bend leg that Alina does, and overall I just don't like leg grabs in spirals, so I only really like the penche one, and maybe not so balletic ones, like cross-grab Bielmanns are quite pretty.

 

[colormyworld240]

I don’t think classical ballet lines or trying to achieve the classical ballet ideal is necessary nor even truly possible in figure skating

Those photos linked to earlier are not classical positions other than the first photo - I think that is Gillian Murphy from ABT?

I do like the use of classical epaulment though - and classical arm positions. Honestly I think Nathan is quite balletic in this regard and he does have 180 degree turnout as well. Wondering what other (current) skaters have had serious ballet training?

I think many skaters probably have some sort of ballet background. But with something like ballet, unless you train full time with very traditional classical instructors, what you're doing is probably a lyrical interpretation to ballet, as opposed to classical. So perhaps it's more correct to say that they have dance training. For skaters that specifically train ballet, from what I've read, Nathan, Polina Edmunds, and Alina have spent time on the barre. For girls, Alina dances in pointe shoes. But I doubt any of them really do classical ballet, probably a more lyrical interpretation to help with dance elements on ice and more likely to learn specific poses they want to do in their programs. But I'm not completely sure.

 

[oatmella]

So Nathan might be the only current skater who has performed with a professional ballet company? Nathan in Garland Waltz from Sleeping Beauty - Ballet West:

https://youtu.be/R9f8pk8afb8

He also performed as Fritz in Ballet West’s Nutcracker - but I do not know of any video from these performances.

 

[RoaringMice]

Most, or perhaps all of the Russian skaters will have had extensive ballet. In the US, it's more hit or miss.

I remember Nikolai Morozov saying that he felt that modern dance was more useful than ballet for skaters, because it's more grounded into the floor, as skating is re: the ice.

I know that when Daisuke Takahashi was working on his hip hop/techno swan program, he spent a lot of time in NYC taking hip hop dance classes and observing, so he could make the program feel genuine.

 

[Izabela]

Speaking of Asia, and let me know if this is OT because the OP was talking about Western forms of dance, one of the things that struck me recently re: Yuzuru's Seimei is the drawing on different Japanese movement vocabularies. Not just the movements such as the opening pose, which are tied to the ritual of exorcism as performed in the movie, but a certain quieter passage that leapt out at me because it reminded me of classical dancing I've seen done by geisha/geiko but iirc also by dancing onnagata performers in kabuki. I'll have to look up videos, but the what I informally call "sleevework" combined with a soft downward, almost coy glance was one of those moments that grabbed my attention.

Keeping this short in case it is deemed OT...

Oh no, please definitely include non-Western form of dance in this conversation! Using non-traditional and non-Western music has been one of the things I want figure skaters to explore more. I am a Yuna fan first and foremost, so let me "stan" for a bit here. She is probably the first one to skate to a a traditional Asian music in a major international competition with her Homage to Korea back in 2011. Not only the music culturally important to Korea (with Arirang), but someone pointed out that choreographically, they also included movements from traditional Korean dance. I'm no expert on this regard, so I don't know specifically what dance it is, but if you watch it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wEQL7ZcrKM&t=75s , you can get a sense of what I'm talking about.

When Yuzuru did Seimei and won Olympics because of it, my hope is that it will become an impetus for future skaters to skate to traditional non-Western songs too, since we better be true about the meaning of "Worlds" in Worlds Championships I think.

 

[kiches]

I don't have a dance background so I don't have much to add to the conversation, but this thread has been really interesting to read.

Speaking of Asia, and let me know if this is OT because the OP was talking about Western forms of dance, one of the things that struck me recently re: Yuzuru's Seimei is the drawing on different Japanese movement vocabularies. Not just the movements such as the opening pose, which are tied to the ritual of exorcism as performed in the movie, but a certain quieter passage that leapt out at me because it reminded me of classical dancing I've seen done by geisha/geiko but iirc also by dancing onnagata performers in kabuki. I'll have to look up videos, but the what I informally call "sleevework" combined with a soft downward, almost coy glance was one of those moments that grabbed my attention.

Keeping this short in case it is deemed OT...

In an interview with Shae-Lynn she mentions that that she suggested meeting the actor, Nomura Mansai, who played Seimei in the movie. Nomura Mansai is a Kyogen stage actor NHK later broadcast a 50 min special of their meeting. There isn't a full translation of the special, but parts of it have been translated here. Around 14 min in they discuss kyogen and about pushing and pulling in order to highlight or emphasize something. They actually talk a bit about the change in the opening pose from what was performed initially at his ice show, to what it eventually became and the meaning behind it. I believe Yuzuru, and Shae-Lynn in particular did a lot of research while putting Seimei together. For anyone who has seen the films (they actually released it in the US in English under the the title "Onmyoji - The Yin Yang Master"), Nomura Mansai moves around in a very distinct way that's unlike anything I've really from the Western cultures, and I'm sure portrayal of the character influenced the choreography of Seimei in different ways.

When Yuzuru did Seimei and won Olympics because of it, my hope is that it will become an impetus for future skaters to skate to traditional non-Western songs too, since we better be true about the meaning of "Worlds" in Worlds Championships I think.

At a press conference at the Japanese Foreign Correspondence Club (which is done in English with an interpreter, Yuzuru actually talks about this. His English answer is at 25:11) where actually touches on how the sport has roots in Europe, the use of Asian music, and the perception that Asians are at a disadvantage in sports that require artistry and expression. He said he hopes his win with this music can lead to more opportunities to use music from different countries and cultures.