Dance and Lines in Figure Skating

[oatmella]

I think turnout is important for things like spread eagles, camel spins, Ina Bauers, spirals ... I’m sure there’s more.

For example you can see Nathan’s good use of turnout in his spread eagle:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYwvWWTXcAAC8Um.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYwvWWUXkAENVS2?format=jpg

As for a program to ballet music, I don’t think I necessarily need to see the program filled with ballet-inspired moves. Fake-looking ballet moves actually look worse imo.

Nathan did a program to that music from the Le Corsaire variation and the choreo (by Marina Zueva) took a lot of inspiration/elements from the traditional ballet choreography. But Nathan studied ballet quite seriously for years - he had the posture and knowledge of ballet technique to pull off such a program. For skaters who don’t have this type of ballet background - I don’t think ‘mimicking’ ballet is necessary - and it’s fine if their program is filled with choreography that is not necessarily classical ballet/inspired.

I consider programs to ballet music to be ballet-inspired, they do not have to be literal ballet ... so movement, acknowledgement of music/theatricality can depend on the choreography and individual skater.

 

[littlesnow]

Former professional ballet dancer here. I agree with the above. I don’t want to see a ballet “inspired” skate crammed with fake, poorly executed, imitation ballet poses and movements. Good ballet training will inform your movement, even if you are not necessarily doing any classical ballet moves. Nathan has lovely stretched knees in his spread eagle unlike most skaters. He does a lovely port de bras too. It is clear he has ballet training despite not doing any ballet “moves” in his skating. Not too bash but Alina Zagitova is an example of a skater who by contrast attempts to portray ballet moves in her skate but unfortunately does not have the right posture or stretched knees or body awareness of a dancer. Also strongly dislike Karen Chen’s spiral, her leg is totally not behind her. If she bent her back leg in an attitude position she would be doing the “doggie at the fire hydrant” position that my early teachers joked about and used to drill into us to make sure we understand proper alignment of the leg behind the body. She is lacking body awareness of what looks good there.

I prefer skaters don’t perform ballet moves unless they have A LOT of ballet experience. Otherwise the moves come off tacky which can look too “dramatic” as someone above mentioned. As I said more people should try to emulate Nathan’s example of good posture, arm movement, and leg positions which will make their overall skating quality higher. Too much flailing and flinging of arms, bent knees, the foot in the back of the camel spin or spiral position is like a dead fish flapping back there. Another skater besides Nathan is Sasha who showed many beautiful positions showing she had great body awareness of what looks good. I don’t know what that spin is called, the one that everyone does now where you pull the leg up by your ear in a la seconde position. Toward the end of her career she started doing it more and more beautifully and balletic by hitting the actual a la seconde, a full 180 split, and SHOULDERS DOWN! Everyone now just pulls their leg up in some weird semi split, neither front nor a la seconde, with their hands gripping on the blade for dear life and shoulders in their ears! I hate it! It looks awful! Yet the audience cheers because it looks impressive

 

[littlesnow]

Much has been said and debated about how figure skating is a form of dance on ice. Along this is a great emphasis on the creation of fine line and good posture referencing classical/balletic dancing as our, and often automatic, benchmark to assess a skater's good posture.

Yet, and here I'm readying my popcorn, figure skating is also moving towards embracing modern/contemporary music that when translated into contemporary dancing, already crosses the boundary of classical "alignment" of body (in ballet the emphasis is center position and vertical alignment, which is not for contemporary dance. Today, balletic style of dancing seem to have a hard time adapting to contemporary dancing, and more and more dancing doesn't follow a strict structure in comparison to ballet.

Yet, in figure skating, we still put great emphasis on having beautiful line, stretch and turnouts , having rigid and upright core throughout dancing. But like modern music, should figure skating remain on the "classical/balletic" mindset of dancing or should we also adapt more modern approach to it?

And also, because I really can't wrap myself around here, can you provide me an example of who has great balletic posture and beautiful line and who also exhibited great form of dancing (like jazzy and modern) that is less structured and do not necessary conform to the "classical."

I realize I didn’t answer your question directly. Ballet is the base of all dance so a good ballet dancer can learn a contemporary style and look good doing it. It is harder to do the reverse. For figure skating no one needs to be doing true classical ballet moves in their programs but they should use ballet training to have good posture and good form and good movement in whatever style of dance they are skating. “Beautiful line, stretch, turnout” are for every style from jazz to contemporary not just ballet.

 

[Izabela]

I realize I didn’t answer your question directly. Ballet is the base of all dance so a good ballet dancer can learn a contemporary style and look good doing it. It is harder to do the reverse. For figure skating no one needs to be doing true classical ballet moves in their programs but they should use ballet training to have good posture and good form and good movement in whatever style of dance they are skating. “Beautiful line, stretch, turnout” are for every style from jazz to contemporary not just ballet.

I get what you mean, but for the sake of keeping this conversation going, I also have to ask, how much is "good posture, good form and good movement" is allowed to not compromise the naturalness of dancing, particularly in skating where motion/fluidity in motion is more emphasized? Now I am drawing from the school of thought of Isadora Duncan here, who rebelled against the mechanical movement of classical ballet. Perhaps in the case of Nathan his lines and posture look great when held or when we look at them in pauses, but in terms of flow in relation to music or when in motion, they also have the tendency to look unnatural. For example, while I would hold Nathan's lines to be aesthetically pleasing, it would take a hard time for me to say that his body is expressive or "free" (which I equate to be organic). This is perhaps the schism between modern/contemporary style of dancing and classical ballet. (Although I cannot know for sure if it has to do with Nathan's limitation to make his movement look natural, or the limitation of classical ballet in general. This is not to bash him of course, but to point out an honest observation. I'm also not trying to single him out, it's just that yall used him as an example.)

 

[oatmella]

I think Nathan actually looks very natural in his movement - and a lot of his movement (particularly arm movement) looks quite effortless, which comes from his ballet training. What he has been criticized for is lack of outward projection - he tends to skate more to the music vs. skating for the audience. This may influence the perception that he does not skate/move in an expressive manner.

Izabela - to answer the last question on your original post - Nathan has great posture and balletic line and has also performed contemporary movement well - like in his more modern Nemesis program. The step sequence in particular is a good example of this. From 2017 Rostelecom Cup:

https://youtu.be/2PpgaGnMLRk

Going further back, Nathan also showed nice contemporary/non-classical movement in his Michael Jackson program, particularly the Smooth Criminal section - from US Nationals 2015:

https://youtu.be/M1q62vQvjCc

 

[schizoanalyst]

I’m against prescriptions generically. I have no abstract desire for certain types of alignments, postures, lines. Absolutely figure skating needs to move beyond narrow approaches to classical dance - but let’s also remember some of the classicism of ballet is almost natural. Blades+ice naturally lead to fluidity and propulsion - add in our love of spins and it’s not all that surprising ballet would be a reference point. I think these features do put limits on what can be incorporated (although it also enhances certain styles, such as lyrical imo). You could break the fluidity with certain choreographic motions - but it would be dissonant with what the motion of the skates is doing. The dissonance isn't necessarily bad, but it would need to arise organically and that seems like a very specific program that could incorporate that. I think, on some level, FS would always appear a bit balletic because of those restrictions, but the sport does need to be open to modernity. On the most basic level - why must we demand complete lines? A complete line might be desirable because it demonstrates full bodily commitment and so can enhance a mood or emotional space to the maximum - but broken lines can be just as impactful and meaningful, if intentional and done with choreographic purpose. So, that would be an aspect of very classical ballet we should absolutely be receptive to breaking.

To address two small points - alignments and stretch. Angular alignments are just plainly hard to incorporate outside of small transitions and the choreographic sequence in a program with jumps, spins, and steps (though ice dance could potentially do it). And in terms of excellent stretch - I think part of it is that, as a sport, we are primed to want to see extraordinary positions as a display of athletic prowess in spins and motions. A phenomenal grand jete with great extension and long line isn’t just aesthetically pleasing - it’s impressive athletically. Sasha Cohen’s spirals weren’t just beautiful, they were also athletically powerful. Having good stretch also allows you to strike different positions that aren't allowable without it - but that doesn't seem strictly balletic, all sorts of dance demands excellent stretch.

So in short, yes, we are a bit trapped in ballet, sometimes for good reason, but we should certainly be receptive to anyone willing and able to push beyond that narrow framework. I think, historically, the ballet analog was obvious for the reason I said earlier, but I think it has become a bit limiting at this point.

For a bit of a non-skating rant:

Today, balletic style of dancing seem to have a hard time adapting to contemporary dancing, and more and more dancing doesn't follow a strict structure in comparison to ballet.

I think this has mostly to do with the donation structure of most ballet companies (in particular, declining public funding and having to rely on corporations and rich people instead), the aging population of ballet fans, and perhaps more desire for nostalgia and simulacrum generally - but that’s perhaps a thesis topic. There are still a few visionaries (Stanton Welch in Houston comes to mind) but consider what William Forsythe did at the Frankfurt Ballet - he inserted all those radical ideas that were created by the Judson Dance Theater - like irony and humor (en pointe done in work boots, for example); improvisation; dissonance; extreme positions; deconstruction of forms and breaking of lines. It was radical and got plenty of backlash, but it still was recognizably neoclassical. It’s almost unthinkable that a major ballet company would be seriously referencing the works of Yvonne Rainer today - and her work is “radical” only if you consider something from 40-50 years ago cutting edge.

 

[chopinskate]

^^^ The changing tastes in music that also contributes to this. I wouldn't like to see a tight, strict carriage to this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1-jqPXGTSQ

Greater choice in music = greater choice in movement. Actually, greater choice of presentation = greater choice of movement in general. New modes of expression, and indeed openness, have emerged, which don't really need, or even want, the balletic line.

 

[Izabela]

I think Nathan actually looks very natural in his movement - and a lot of his movement (particularly arm movement) looks quite effortless, which comes from his ballet training. What he has been criticized for is lack of outward projection - he tends to skate more to the music vs. skating for the audience. This may influence the perception that he does not skate/move in an expressive manner.

Izabela - to answer the last question on your original post - Nathan has great posture and balletic line and has also performed contemporary movement well - like in his more modern Nemesis program. The step sequence in particular is a good example of this. From 2017 Rostelecom Cup:

https://youtu.be/2PpgaGnMLRk

Going further back, Nathan also showed nice contemporary/non-classical movement in his Michael Jackson program, particularly the Smooth Criminal section - from US Nationals 2015:

https://youtu.be/M1q62vQvjCc

With regards to Nathan, I'm not referring to his lack of projection nor his effortless movement, but the naturalness of the movements he exhibits on ice, which I equate to being organic. In terms of precision when it comes to his upper body movement, for example, although effortless, they also come off to me as learned and measured rather than organic. I apologize if this sounds offensive (it's not my intention), but if we equate this to musicality, it can come off as metronomic, which in retrospect may not be his fault, but as a hazard he caught from his ballet background. What I mean is that by watching his programs in repetition, there seems to be an effort on his part to hold positions that are ballet-like even when his music (like Nemesis) also demands a bit of dissonance (or a form of chaos in movements). In short, I think I want to see more jaggedness in Nathan's skating. For example, in the part of Nemesis https://youtu.be/SUH_vqsV45o?t=150 ("Nemesis, Nemesis!"), musically speaking it's the "let loose!" period of dancing, and flailing your arms and just letting "loose" can work wonders here (I don't want him to be the next Daisuke but a Daisuke-esque kind of movement would be so perfect). Yet, even then, Nathan's movements are still somewhat measured. And I am saying this despite the fact that among his programs (in senior), I like his Nemesis the most. But this may be a case of having a different mileage or preference.

I realized that my answer may be vague, but we can compare Nathan Chen to Mao Asada's Liebestraum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY2XYxLawYw&t=137s
This is perhaps the beauty of Mao because she is the one who I consider who skates to the music and not to the audience, and her "ballet" like movements comes off organically here, IMO because instead of focusing on her stretch, she lets the music guide her movements. She is the kind of impressionist skater who doesn't bring out the music from inside out (the way Yuna does, who is the Expressionist here in this case), but let's the music come inside her to guide her every movement.

As a tangent, this is why I love the contrasting style of Yuna and Mao. As I've mentioned elsewhere, Yuna is more of the Modern Expressionist skater who brings out the music to the audience. Her body is like an instrument that can produce music. Whereas Mao is the Classical Impressionist whose style of skating outlines an impression you can have or you might feel when listening to music. Mao also has the delicateness and fluidity in her skating that can bring justice to classical music like Chopin and Liszt, whereas Yuna has the power and the deep edge to bring out epic, explosive performances.

I’m against prescriptions generically. I have no abstract desire for certain types of alignments, postures, lines. Absolutely figure skating needs to move beyond narrow approaches to classical dance - but let’s also remember some of the classicism of ballet is almost natural. Blades+ice naturally lead to fluidity and propulsion - add in our love of spins and it’s not all that surprising ballet would be a reference point. I think these features do put limits on what can be incorporated (although it also enhances certain styles, such as lyrical imo). You could break the fluidity with certain choreographic motions - but it would be dissonant with what the motion of the skates is doing. The dissonance isn't necessarily bad, but it would need to arise organically and that seems like a very specific program that could incorporate that. I think, on some level, FS would always appear a bit balletic because of those restrictions, but the sport does need to be open to modernity. On the most basic level - why must we demand complete lines? A complete line might be desirable because it demonstrates full bodily commitment and so can enhance a mood or emotional space to the maximum - but broken lines can be just as impactful and meaningful, if intentional and done with choreographic purpose. So, that would be an aspect of very classical ballet we should absolutely be receptive to breaking.

While you mentioned lots of points here that I agree, I actually want to voice out that I consider lyrical dance as the most natural and easiest form of dancing that can be translated on ice. Lyrical dance embraces and brings out the fluidity and elegance of skating so well because it emphasizes on the interconnection of movements that flow seamlessly with such smoothness. It's not as rigid and as slow as ballet, but it is also not rushed. A skater who is a lyrical dancer holds their movements so well and then connect it to the other. The only downside here I guess when it comes to gaining points, a lyrical dance is limited when it comes to incorporating transitions. Because the gliding is a big part of its choreography. Funny I actually have a private discussion on this, but I consider Carolina Kostner to be an embodiment of lyrical dance.

To address two small points - alignments and stretch. Angular alignments are just plainly hard to incorporate outside of small transitions and the choreographic sequence in a program with jumps, spins, and steps (though ice dance could potentially do it). And in terms of excellent stretch - I think part of it is that, as a sport, we are primed to want to see extraordinary positions as a display of athletic prowess in spins and motions. A phenomenal grand jete with great extension and long line isn’t just aesthetically pleasing - it’s impressive athletically. Sasha Cohen’s spirals weren’t just beautiful, they were also athletically powerful. Having good stretch also allows you to strike different positions that aren't allowable without it - but that doesn't seem strictly balletic, all sorts of dance demands excellent stretch.

I agree, but perhaps my question is how much should we focus on excellent stretch. I know you already answered it as not much because it can be limiting, but there is still a tendency in the fs community to put so much premium on stretch and positions, instead of looking at whether the position or the movement taking place on ice enhances your feel to the music (as an example).

 

[chopinskate]

These responses from schizo and Izabela deserve :clapper:

 

[synteis]

I'm super curious how someone like Daisuke fits into this discussion. He's definitely the skater that to me best translated dance onto ice in a huge range of styles and how he compares to someone like Patrick and someone like Nathan. I tend to feel like Daisuke is on one end of a spectrum and Nathan on the other in this conversation with Patrick somewhere in the middle but I have no formal dance training so that's only my observations and feelings.

Thoughts on their contrasting styles from someone who knows more than me?

(Also this might be my favourite thread ever on here, thank you all so much, this is really cool.)

 

[oatmella]

In regards to Nemesis - I think that is a matter of (personal) preference.

As for how much focus should be on excellent stretch - I think that should also be individual - depending on the particular program, choreography and skater.

 

[gkelly]

What about turnout?

I think turnout is important for things like spread eagles, camel spins, Ina Bauers, spirals ... I’m sure there’s more.

Aside from spread eagles and Ina Bauers, turnout is usually more important in the free leg in skating than in the skating leg/hip.

The majority of the time the blade is gliding forward or backward with the foot facing forward or backward with respect to the hips, and the upper body turns at the waist above the hips following the blades. That's a difference from ballet technique.

Open hips/turnout can be helpful for some skating moves such as mohawks and choctaws. And also some spin positions, but other times too much turnout can interfere with spin technique. Not to mention jump technique.

 

[eppen]

Interesting posts! Keep them coming!

IMO although the types of music used in skating have perhaps gotten more varied, the movement tends to stay the same. There might be a move or two referring to the dance style (such as hip hop) in the introduction or some sections during the program, but the majority is just sort of "normal" figure skating movement (which does take its cues from classical ballet for the most part).

Jimmy Ma's SP this season was choreographed to a sort of hip hop style music and it got a lot of attention for that. The choreography, however, was aking to hiphop with a few arm movements at the beginning, some additional dance moves at the beginning of the steps and that's it. The rest could have been skated to classical music. I happened to see this Denis Ten show number from 2016 live in Paris and it blew me away. It is an amazing adaptation of hip hop dance style on ice.

E

 

[gkelly]

IMO although the types of music used in skating have perhaps gotten more varied, the movement tends to stay the same. There might be a move or two referring to the dance style (such as hip hop) in the introduction or some sections during the program, but the majority is just sort of "normal" figure skating movement (which does take its cues from classical ballet for the most part).

Jimmy Ma's SP this season was choreographed to a sort of hip hop style music and it got a lot of attention for that. The choreography, however, was aking to hiphop with a few arm movements at the beginning, some additional dance moves at the beginning of the steps and that's it. The rest could have been skated to classical music. I happened to see this Denis Ten show number from 2016 live in Paris and it blew me away. It is an amazing adaptation of hip hop dance style on ice.

Keep in mind that good skating technique involves gliding smoothly on edges on one foot at a time. Skaters will include a lot of that kind of locomotion in their competitive programs because that is what is rewarded in the scoring. They'll also include a lot of crossovers and similar simple stroking to gain speed for jumps. They'll do what they can with the upper body and free leg to try to match the musical style and just generally to make the simple skating look interesting and attractive.

Dancing on the ice with moves that rely a lot on having two feet on the ice or a lot of up-and-down movement that impedes horizontal flow, or really any staccato movements, will need to be used sparingly in a competitive program. They may add to the Interpretation and other program component scores, but to the extent they detract from the Skating Skills score or get in the way of executing the elements, they would be more likely to lead to lower overall scores than overuse of non-gliding moves.

In a show program, there's no need to worry about scores so anything goes.

 

[Princessroja]

How does having good turn out affect skating? I can see the use of deep knees/plie, but what does turnout do?

Also, in relation to ballet and modern, how does the movement created by dancers learning those translate onto the ice? Put another way, if a skater is dancing a balletic program, would you expect them to just fill their programs with moves from ballet, or would you expect an acknowledgment of music in a ballet program to be done like that in a ballet (which to me always comes off as very dramatic and exaggerated, given its theatrical roots). (Does that make any sense? In the Le Corsaire video, the way Corella acknowledges music cues is different from how I'd expect a modern dancer does it. It also depends on the music, but ballet music is usually pretty grand.)

Re: turnout, a few others got there first! In my experience, I've found my ingrained ballet training to be a hindrance rather than a help on the ice, in large part because turnout works a different set of muscles. It makes everything about how you stand and move different. Dance also emphasizes a different weight distribution on the foot that's taking me a really long time to unlearn. A funny moment from this past year's ice skating lessons--I've been having a very difficult time with two foot turns on a circle (I'm still totally a beginner!) and my weight was always forward. I finally realized it was because I was shifting to the ball of my foot and letting my heel come off the bottom of my skate, just as I would for any turn not on skates. But you can't do that in skates! It seriously took me several years to figure that out. The day-to-day mechanics are VERY different, at least for me, although I would love to hear others' experiences in this area.

But anyways, back to turnout. Like the others said, it isn't that applicable in skating unless your leg is lifted. It's another area where modern with its emphasis on working parallel is very useful, although working in turnout does shape the legs in an aesthetically pleasing (to me) way, which can be useful too.

On the subject of attempting to translate dance to ice... I am generally not a fan for several reasons, firstly (and perhaps unkindly), most skaters simply don't have the requisite training to pull it off. Alina's program was mentioned somewhere on the thread, and it's a good example of a skater trying very hard to "be balletic" without really being able to. And that's not a reflection on her alone; it was also the program itself. Movements that would look fluid on a stage with a trained dancer look really choppy on the ice. Carolina's modern program (was it last year? I can't remember) was, however, an example of a dance-like program I thought was done very well.

Skating and dancing are also different enough that movements don't translate well. Ballet music is also set in such a way that it suits dance timing and rhythms, which don't always work with skating rhythms. It winds up looking oddly misplaced/mismatched. Someone mentioned too that music from traditional ballets is quite grand, and skaters seem to forget that it's usually adult professional dancers (soloists and principals no less), who tend to have the kind of skill that allows them to not be swallowed up by such large music.

edit: Oh, and I wanted to throw in a quick word on ballet's relation to the rest of dance. While it is a foundation of several types of common Western concert dance (some forms of modern, what we think of as lyrical/contemporary, etc), it is not a foundation of other types of dance worldwide, including some kinds of Western dances (tap and hip-hop spring to mind). For more information, I HIGHLY recommend Joann Kealiinohomoku's short-ish article: http://www.oberlinlibstaff.com/acce...ces/texts/ecologiesofbeauty/anthro_ballet.pdf
I seem to recall some skating programs that have drawn on various types of world dance, but I'm relatively new to skating and couldn't point to specifics. I would dearly love to see studies done on the effects of, say, tap or capoeira on skaters.

 

[chopinskate]

Skating and dancing are also different enough that movements don't translate well. Ballet music is also set in such a way that it suits dance timing and rhythms, which don't always work with skating rhythms. It winds up looking oddly misplaced/mismatched. Someone mentioned too that music from traditional ballets is quite grand, and skaters seem to forget that it's usually adult professional dancers (soloists and principals no less), who tend to have the kind of skill that allows them to not be swallowed up by such large music.

That was me (in the post you quoted). I agree, all the "ballet" programs I've watched, the skater has been swallowed up. It's no surprise, because of course it requires years of training to be able to match that intensity and grandiosity. Something always seems very "off".

 

[Princessroja]

That was me (in the post you quoted). I agree, all the "ballet" programs I've watched, the skater has been swallowed up. It's no surprise, because of course it requires years of training to be able to match that intensity and grandiosity. Something always seems very "off".

Oh duh, so it was! Can't believe I quoted the post and still didn't see that. I read through all the new comments earlier and they all started to blend together!

 

[chopinskate]

edit: Oh, and I wanted to throw in a quick word on ballet's relation to the rest of dance. While it is a foundation of several types of common Western concert dance (some forms of modern, what we think of as lyrical/contemporary, etc), it is not a foundation of other types of dance worldwide, including some kinds of Western dances (tap and hip-hop spring to mind). For more information, I HIGHLY recommend Joann Kealiinohomoku's short-ish article: http://www.oberlinlibstaff.com/acce...ces/texts/ecologiesofbeauty/anthro_ballet.pdf
I seem to recall some skating programs that have drawn on various types of world dance, but I'm relatively new to skating and couldn't point to specifics. I would dearly love to see studies done on the effects of, say, tap or capoeira on skaters.

Thanks for this, too! Yes, I do sometimes find it weird that some claim it's a foundation for all dance. Of course it wouldn't be a foundation for folk dances from, say, Asia. Also, while standard and latin ballroom likely draw from ballet technique at this point (at least for ease of movement, arm placement, lines, etc.), the roots of latin are definitely not based on ballet, as far as I know.

 

[Princessroja]

Thanks for this, too! Yes, I do sometimes find it weird that some claim it's a foundation for all dance. Of course it wouldn't be a foundation for folk dances from, say, Asia. Also, while standard and latin ballroom likely draw from ballet technique at this point (at least for ease of movement, arm placement, lines, etc.), the roots of latin are definitely not based on ballet, as far as I know.

Yeah, it's a really fascinating topic and I could go into it for ages, but I won't for the sake of keeping the thread on topic. Dance history is great but only mildly relevant here in the sense that I thought it was important to clarify with all our talk surrounding what types of dance to teach and their various relationships to each other/skating/etc. But if anyone does want to chat about it at more depth, feel free to PM me... I'm always up for shop talk.

 

[chopinskate]

Movements that would look fluid on a stage with a trained dancer look really choppy on the ice.

Hmm. Could this perhaps be what was shaping Izabela's point of view on Nathan Chen? Taking his Le Corsaire into consideration, I'd have to say that he is also one that is often swallowed up by the grand music, but that wasn't necessarily a problem in his Michael Jackson.

Yeah, it's a really fascinating topic and I could go into it for ages, but I won't for the sake of keeping the thread on topic. Dance history is great but only mildly relevant here in the sense that I thought it was important to clarify with all our talk surrounding what types of dance to teach and their various relationships to each other/skating/etc. But if anyone does want to chat about it at more depth, feel free to PM me... I'm always up for shop talk.

:agree: