Disturbed by final results....
- Thread starter rain
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gracefulswan said:heck no weir, sandhu, and buttle are not equal to plushy's PCS.. the latter is head and shoulders ABOVE them.read libra's account of him again and you'll see why he's just got 'it'. as an overall skater, none of the men come close yet. i reckon he'll be crowned at least 4x world champ (knock on wood) and olympic champ hopefully. hey, he even has a darn good chance of tying dick button's 5x world champ record.. or maybe surpass it! (gasp!) :agree:
Actually, if you took the blinders off you would see that these guys are every bit as artistic as Plushenko. Buttle has the the most intricately choreographed progran of the season. The reason why Plushenko is better is that he's much more consistent than the others. That's not a bash on any skater, it's the truth. They are all amazing skaters, but Plushenko is the one who delivers the goods every time. He is beatable though. His LP this season is not as good as the previous two. On a purely choreographic level it is inferior to the other three. His skating skills do make up for all of the Level 1 skills, but the others have skating skills that are equal to him. Buttle's transitions are the best in the world, while Weir is the premiere artiste on ice. Sandhu is the perfect mix of artistic and technical ability, but he cannot put two solid skates together. Plushenko beats these guys by simply going out there and landing everything. It's not that he's head and shoulders above everyone else, it's only Evgeni's consistency. Plushenko is an amazing skater; however it's silly to think that he's that much better than the rest.
I love Plushenko's skating, but I do think it can be beat, albeit it would have to be a really freak occurance,
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- Jul 11, 2003
mike79 said:
I think he can be beat, but not in Moscow. He will skate his best in front of the hometown crowd. He's a very solid skater, although I am not overwhelmed with his artistry. He's gives a 'kid' performance by constantly saying: "Didn't you like that trick? There's more to come" Many fans like that smugness, I don't.
Joe
I don't find Plushenko smug at all. He is a consummate performer, and his speed and the height and ice coverage of his jumps are unmatched by any of the other men. He is not tentative, he is not hesitant---every inch of his body is committed to his performance. It's that intensity that brings him the very high PCS scores.
When Sandhu is 'on', he is equally intense, but he does not have the command of the ice Plushy does, nor can he match Plushy's technical skills. Buttle and Weir are almost the opposite of intense, and though both have their own smooth, unique style, Buttle struggles with his jumps and Weir does not have a quad.
I don't think either Miki or Joannie was robbed. Shizuka fell apart in the FS, but her SP was the best she's done this season and she deserved her high score. Joannie and Miki faltered in both SP and FS; they both scored around 100 points in the FS, not outstanding at all. Irina was the only skater to deliver a strong SP and a solid FS and her win was deserved, whether some like her style or not.
Even if Joannie had delivered a FS comparable to her performance at TEB (she scored 113 points there), she still would not have won, as she was 10 points behind Irina after the SP, and Irina scored 115 in the GPF FS.
When Sandhu is 'on', he is equally intense, but he does not have the command of the ice Plushy does, nor can he match Plushy's technical skills. Buttle and Weir are almost the opposite of intense, and though both have their own smooth, unique style, Buttle struggles with his jumps and Weir does not have a quad.
I don't think either Miki or Joannie was robbed. Shizuka fell apart in the FS, but her SP was the best she's done this season and she deserved her high score. Joannie and Miki faltered in both SP and FS; they both scored around 100 points in the FS, not outstanding at all. Irina was the only skater to deliver a strong SP and a solid FS and her win was deserved, whether some like her style or not.
Even if Joannie had delivered a FS comparable to her performance at TEB (she scored 113 points there), she still would not have won, as she was 10 points behind Irina after the SP, and Irina scored 115 in the GPF FS.
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chuckm said:
Actually I myself thought Plushenko was rather smug in the past, in particular with his heavy rivalry with Yagudin but I think that smugness has toned down for the better or at least it seemed evident to me when I saw his performance in Marshall's. But I agree. He's definitely the perennial favorite in the men's. I never really cared for his programs in the past but this time, I'm starting to like it some
As far as I'm concerned, noone can touch him....yet.
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- Jul 27, 2003
Kuchana said:Actually I myself thought Plushenko was rather smug in the past, in particular with his heavy rivalry with Yagudin but I think that smugness has toned down for the better or at least it seemed evident to me when I saw his performance in Marshall's. But I agree. He's definitely the perennial favorite in the men's. I never really cared for his programs in the past but this time, I'm starting to like it some
First of all, although I'm a big Yags fan and am lukewarm on Plushy, I actually thought that Yags was the smug one; in fact, I thought he was a big whiny baby even after he won the gold, whereas Plushy was extremely gracious in defeat.
Realtorgal, I share your sentiments here. I'm a die hard Yags fan and never cared for Plushy's skating but he always carried himself like a true sportsman. Because I love Yags so much I overlook at his antics. Plushy always humbly accept the results and never played the rivalry between him and Yags as much. Of course, JMO. Anyway, Plushy has his own flambouyant style and knows how to focus for the challenge. I'm not a fan of the gay mafia LP but I can appreciate what he's trying to interpret. Didn't cared for the Godfather on Techno either. But I do like many of his LPs. Only Plushy could carry a male Carmen
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- Aug 16, 2003
mike79 said:
what are his scores in PCS relative to his closest competitors? so you're thinking that many of the judges are wrong and you are right? oh, did you note the level 2s for his footwork at the grand prix finals... and for some of his spins? how he was upgraded on many aspects of his skating...? not to mention the superb landings of his jumps that garnered high TES scores. so he's winning with a combination of superior TES and PCS scores overall... so the man that beats him will have to do so on both fronts... if both are clean plushy wins this year IMHO. now i'm not getting ahead of myself and crowning him olympic champ just yet. things can change from year to year... this program rocks.. it's not my favorite but i certainly like it better than any of the other men..and better than his 'carmen' free skate last olympics. it rivals some of his best b/c he does it so convincingly.
I am very concerned about the COP and the technical specialist. At the COR Viktor Petrenko was the technical specialist for the ladies event. He was very out spoken after the Olympics feeling that Irina should have won the gold. As the technical specialist he can "call" the elements as he did at COR. Irina's 3/3/2 was ratified at COR with Petrenko as the technical specialist but as I watched in slow motion the second triple was under rotated. And we all know about Debbie Wilkes acting as a technical specialist. The technical specialist can certainly change the outcome of an event just by the way they "call" the elements. I am very concerned that this will open up yet another huge scandal in this sport.
gracefulswan said:
Actually many people tend to think that the judges can manipulate the PCS scores to reflect what they want, as opposed to what actually happens on the ice. It sure seems to be the case that skaters like Joubert and Honda are being propped up with higher marks for things like skating skills, etc, than they actually deserve. Is this the case with Plushenko? Probably not since his skating is superb. But he does not deserve higher marks than Buttle for transitions, nor does he deserve higher marks in areas where others are better.
You are right about Plushenko's improving spins. They're much better this year, and it shows that he is constantly pushing himself to become better. His LP, OTOH, while he skates it well, has nothing on his Nijinski program of last year. I feel that he's taking too many breaks and it interrupts the flow of the program. I do believe that a completely clean Sandhu can beat Plushenko. Sandhu would have to land everything, including his quad Salchow, but I think it can be done. I think that Weir could beat Plushenko if he gets a quad. I'm not saying it will happen, but the potential is there for others to win.
I hope you didn't take my previous post as a bash on Plushenko. I reread it and I think it came off harsher than I intended. I am a huge fan of his, but I just think that his lead over everyone else is not what it once was.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Vicky - The Technical Specialist, whomever it is, is the most powerful official in the competition. He can single handily influence the judging.
Joe
Joe
I haven't yet seen the coverage of the GPF (and I prolly won't, considering I'll be in England---anyone know if Eurosport is showing it and when?), but I did check out a spoiler, so I know the results
As for Plushy's high PCS scores, I'm with libra on this one. I'm not a big fan of Plushy's skating and would love to see him get beaten by any of the names we've mentioned on this forum. But that being said, having seen his "Godfather" programme and the way he has performed it clean on the year, I don't think that's going to an easy thing to do. We don't doubt that Plushy's jumps are out-of-this-world, but on top of that the programme has an amazing energy and confidence to it that you can't deny, much more than some of his other programmes. Sure, it may not be as refined and balletic as either Weir or Sandhu, but with all the jumps clean and it performed well, it deserves high PCS.
It's like when I used to compete in dance competitions. One of the categories you were judged on was "stage presence". You may not have had the most difficult leaps, jumps, and turns in your routine, but if you took command of your routine and performed it like you believed in it, the judges would reward you for it. The same is true for Plushy; EVERYTHING in his programme may not be über-difficult, but the way he performs EVERYTHING is what makes it such a high-scoring programme.
The lingering question, though, is: does something like this just apply to Plushy and the top tier of skaters, or will the judges recognise this universally and reward lower skaters. I would say yes (using KVDP as a good example), but I don't know
As for Plushy's high PCS scores, I'm with libra on this one. I'm not a big fan of Plushy's skating and would love to see him get beaten by any of the names we've mentioned on this forum. But that being said, having seen his "Godfather" programme and the way he has performed it clean on the year, I don't think that's going to an easy thing to do. We don't doubt that Plushy's jumps are out-of-this-world, but on top of that the programme has an amazing energy and confidence to it that you can't deny, much more than some of his other programmes. Sure, it may not be as refined and balletic as either Weir or Sandhu, but with all the jumps clean and it performed well, it deserves high PCS.
It's like when I used to compete in dance competitions. One of the categories you were judged on was "stage presence". You may not have had the most difficult leaps, jumps, and turns in your routine, but if you took command of your routine and performed it like you believed in it, the judges would reward you for it. The same is true for Plushy; EVERYTHING in his programme may not be über-difficult, but the way he performs EVERYTHING is what makes it such a high-scoring programme.
The lingering question, though, is: does something like this just apply to Plushy and the top tier of skaters, or will the judges recognise this universally and reward lower skaters. I would say yes (using KVDP as a good example), but I don't know
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- Jul 11, 2003
Matt said:
I don't think Plushy has to worry about the scoring. He gets them and certainly he deserves the high scores on most of the details. It is the other competitors whose scores are in question. If Plushy does a sitspin and does not go all the way down and other skaters do, should Plushy's score for that element be just .l less? IMO, there was no sitspin so he shouldn't get the base score. Nitlpicking? That's what the CoP is all about. There is a lot of subjectivity in the PCS scores. It's just as bad as the 6.0 system.
Joe
Matt said:
No, Eurosport aren't showing any of the GP series :sheesh: . There's a few things on over Christmas though - such as replays of highlights of the last Euros and Worlds, plus Katarina Witt & Friends, Holiday on Ice (?), and the annual gala from Oberstdorf. We also get good coverage of Euros and Worlds next year, usually including all or most of the skaters.
ETA - I haven't seen any of the skaters this year either, but it's still interesting to read these debates. Plush is amazing, whatever way you look at it. Some people go on about his consistency like it's the only thing he has over the others - but consistency is HARD to attain. This is obvious when you consider the number of elite skaters who train for years but who still fall in big competitions. The elements are hard, and it's very hard to become consistent. This is also why you often hear of people landing things in practice (like 3-3s or quads), but then they don't show up in competition. You don't attempt something extremely difficult in major competition unless it's reasonably consistent, because of the risk.
Anyway, going off the point a bit - I agree that there should be evidence of variation among the different TCS scores, because skaters have different strengths in different areas. For example, Michelle Kwan should be very high for skating skills and usually for performance/execution, but should usually be much lower for transitions. Will this be the case? Who knows. In the mens, Lambiel should probably be highest for transitions, even if he doesn't win or medal. I'd like to see this happen, but don't know if it will. Only time will tell if this will be addressed, I guess...
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