Domestic scoring in Russia

[TT_Fin]

IMO people see often what they want to see. I cannot recognize jumps, except axel is clear and sometimes, and depending from the entry and camera position, I recognize loop and lutz. But even I can see some underrotated jumps but people on the forum say "underscored" even when there becomes a visible scratch and skater clearly turns almost 90 % when already the blade is on the ice. While listening to Finnish commentator who is also a judge - as i have written in some threads, he is the only judge in the world who has highest levels in every categories - I often hear immediately "this jumps probably will be rewatched" and I think he has the same screen as me. He, of course, cheers local skaters when commenting, but is not shy to tell also when local skaters jumps are underrotated to his eyes, happens quite a lot. IMO when Russian where competing, they did get +GOES also by scratched landings usually Eteri's teams skaters but I cannot - as many others recognize when entry is difficult and I thought it was the entry and other things, not just landing A difficult entry which gives high scores can look to regular watcher only strange. One thing the commentator-judge often says "difficult situation, I am happy not be in the judges panel now". He is not very much judging any more, only at the big comps, because he has quite different civilian job and gets paid from commenting, but he trains new judges.

As I count myself to be an ordinary fan, not knowing much about the technics, I say it easier to separate double from triple than triple from quad. As quads gets more applause, it is because there are so much skaters in the audience and they recognize it better. To old people I have talked with in live event a fall after a quad was worse than popping the whole thing. One lady once next to me could not understand at all why somebody with a fallen jump got better scores than someone who skated otherwise clean, but singled a triple. I am not sure what to think, I think fallen quads are too valuable. To us, who know less about skating, clean programs with easier jumps are more satisfying. You can disagree, but I this is what I think and many "regular" people without skating background in the audience whom I have talked with think.

 

[snowed]

Do you know in what way the tech panel camera differs from what the audience can see and what is the rationale behind using a different camera for them?

I don't know, but I would think the the tech panel camera is part of the tech panel equipment or at least hired by ISU for the purpose of providing the tech panel with video. By contrast, there are commercial cameras hired by the media companies that bought the broadcasting rights and have the purpose to entertain. I don't think ISU can sell the broadcasting rights and also ask that that video be taken with the main goal of supporting tech reviews. I would think it is all about money (contracts and maybe insurance, and let's not forget the music rights)

 

[TT_Fin]

I found this from Reddit, but it is unofficial. I have no idea if this is already talked somewhere, maybe worth of own topic:

The International Skating Union (ISU) plans to introduce technologies using artificial intelligence and augmented reality in figure skating judging.

This is reported by "Match TV" with reference to sources.

According to one of the sources, the system is being developed by a special ISU working groupresponsible for implementing new initiatives. The technology will be focused on determining the number of turns in jumps.

According to the second source, the system will first analyze the degree of pre-twist of the jump when landing, and second – the pre-rotation when taking off."

It is just a comment by somebody, but it is obvious this will be true quite soon. The comment was already almost two years old.

 

[Mathematician]

Good point about story telling. I realize your point is further supported by which Russian skaters non-Russians like as opposed to those which Russians like.

Non-Russians seem to deem Kostornaia above anybody else in Russia. She had the cleanest, most textbook 3A alongside conventional high level body movement and skating skills. She was very artistic kinaesthetically and charismatically but not necessarily in a story telling way. Meanwhile Russians dont care as much for Kostornaia and prefer girls like Valieva. International viewers always disliked Valieva due to her often dirty jumping technique. Petrosian for instance also falls around Valieva, her quads are rotated well usually but she totally throws herself into them without much grace which probably puts international viewers off despite her otherwise proper form. She also opts towards story telling and philosophical artistry as opposed to dancing and charisma. Anna should definitely fall into here as well, and she does (her jumping form was always criticized internationally), though international viewers seem to be much more accepting of her now just because of her personality.

Some girls who have textbook ISU technique alongside storytelling are generally liked by both Russians and international viewers. For instance I have yet to see anyone who really dislikes Sinitsina or Usacheva.

But I disagree about gliding speed. Speed seems to be totally intrinsic to Russian skating. When a girl loses speed for even a second its extremely jarring and her PCS shows for it. When I was watching international events I was shocked at how slow they were. But this is in regards to women, and I saw you mentioned that you care more for men so it might be different.

 

[Mathematician]

I cannot recognize jumps, except axel is clear and sometimes, and depending from the entry and camera position, I recognize loop and lutz.

If you can recognize lutz then you can recognize flip and toeloop. Lutz has a stable backwards gliding entry meanwhile the flip entry is when they come in at an angle then turn for momentum right before. Toploop also has a gliding entry but is done with the opposite foot from Lutz, this is why its often 2nd in combo, because you must land on same foot as takeoff.

Loop vs salchow - Loop takes off on the right foot and salchow on left (unless the skater spins clockwise, which is rare. In this case everything in opposite). Pay attention to the right foot (or non-takeoff foot) in salchow - they will use it for momentum by swinging it in a semi-circle motion from back to forward. Meanwhile loop has a more stable gliding entry. This generally results in a cross-legged takeoff with the loop and an outwardly angled bow-legged takeoff for salchow (if you are lucky to get a front view of the jump, this makes it very obvious which is being performed).

Toploop, lutz, flip - are the jumps going backwards where they stick their toe pick into the ice.

Remember generally: lutz/flip right leg, toeloop left (unless clockwise spin, then its reverse). There is a more technical way you can tell unequivocally of course but this is much easier.

The other 3 are taken off from a flat skate (edge jumps).

With this information you should be able to distinguish all jumps.

 

[DancingCactus]

The problem is not how to distuinguish jumps in theory but how to do that at full speed on a small screen. I often mix up loop and toeloop for some reason. Even though in theory they are totally different.

 

[icewhite]

Me identifying a salchow: "Oh, that looks really soft and it isn't one of the other jumps, so it must be a salchow!"

 

[Mathematician]

The problem is not how to distuinguish jumps in theory but how to do that at full speed on a small screen. I often mix up loop and toeloop for some reason. Even though in theory they are totally different.

Maybe it takes some practice. But I dont totally understand how you could mix up those two. It should be pretty clear when the toe pick is used. Loop and salchow are really similar though.

I never had much trouble discerning jumps after watching the ISU technique simulations. Essentially just what I wrote.

 

[DancingCactus]

Some people have problems with perceiving details at a higher speed.

 

[icewhite]

It also depends on the skater's technique how recognizable the jump is. Overall I am having the most issues with the flip (if there is no clear flip moment) and the salchow which I really mostly recognize by "looks very soft and it's not one of the others".
I suppose it's not a problem if you have learned to do these jumps yourself. But for me, who has never done more than a bunny hop, I really had to learn how to distinguish them and I am still quite a bit from a 100% recognition.

 

[Mathematician]

It also depends on the skater's technique how recognizable the jump is. Overall I am having the most issues with the flip (if there is no clear flip moment) and the salchow which I really mostly recognize by "looks very soft and it's not one of the others".
I suppose it's not a problem if you have learned to do these jumps yourself. But for me, who has never done more than a bunny hop, I really had to learn how to distinguish them and I am still quite a bit from a 100% recognition.

Yes, distinguishing a flip from a lutz would be difficult at high speed assuming no turn around on the flip. But I cant remember the last time I saw that. And I understand how recognizing the salchow is difficult. That was the hardest one for me to get down between the loop. However, from some perspectives judging by bowed vs crossed legs as I described earlier should be a big help.

 

[Mathman]

Some people have problems with perceiving details at a higher speed.

Plus, the average viewer (not a tech specialist) has many other things to look at during a performance than the take-uff edge. A quad takes only about 0.7 seconds. By the time you say to yourself, "I guess he's going to do a quad now" -- it's over.

Same with rotations. I have the hardest time distinguishing a single Axel form a double in real time.

 

[Mathematician]

Plus, the average viewer (not a tech specialist) has many other things to look at during a performance than the take-uff edge. A quad takes only about 0.7 seconds. By the time you say to yourself, "I guess he's going to do a quad now" -- it's over.

Same with rotations. I have the hardest time distinguishing a single Axel form a double in real time.

But the takeoff edge is massively irrelevant to jump discernment aside from salchow vs loop. We all know the axel distinctly. Lutz is a gliding entry with right foot, flip is a turning entry with right, and the toeloop is the only toe jump from the left foot. These are unmistakable and require very low cognitive strain.

That leaves just salchow vs loop, which comes with intuition after practice depending on many factors, mostly about discerning takeoff foot and the entry method.

Rotations are harder to discern. I sympathize with that issue.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Lutz is a gliding entry with right foot, flip is a turning entry with right

You can have short entry lutzes from footwork e.g. for counterclockwise jumper, a LFI mohawk or choctaw followed by a foot crossing over in front to takeoff edge (may be straightaway to LBO, or some people do a LBI powerpull to LBO because it makes it easier to hold the outside edge at moment of takeoff). There are also LFO rockers or LFI brackets (these end in the LBO takeoff edge).

Best to learn to pay attention to the takeoff edge not just the steps into it. That way you can guess not just which jump was intended, but also whether they actually did it correctly or if they deserve a penalty.

 

[Mathematician]

You can have short entry lutzes from footwork e.g. for counterclockwise jumper, a LFI mohawk or choctaw followed by a foot crossing over in front to takeoff edge (may be straightaway to LBO, or some people do a LBI powerpull to LBO because it makes it easier to hold the outside edge at moment of takeoff). There are also LFO rockers or LFI brackets (these end in the LBO takeoff edge).

Best to learn to pay attention to the takeoff edge not just the steps into it. That way you can guess not just which jump was intended, but also whether they actually did it correctly or if they deserve a penalty.

Thanks a lot for your input. Its helpful. Do/did you skate your self? I did agree earlier that unequivocally discerning jumps requires the understanding of edges. I try my best to do so and thankfully the lutz takeoff edge is quite distinct (when done properly... which isnt always. In fact, quite often we see flutzes, which makes this more difficult). However, I have yet to judge a flip versus lutz incorrectly based off entry, and I've watched a LOT of figure skating. Perhaps I just have an intuition on how the flip entry specifically goes. Also, I realize men may perform much more complicated entries which would skew the perception more - I often forget men's skating even exists which sometimes rifts my perspective from those of the people with which I'm discussing skating.

If possible, could you perhaps show an example of a lutz entry which resembles and flip entry? I am interesting in understanding skating technique as much as possible. I understand its unlikely you can do so off memory, and I totally agree with your point anyways, but I'm just curious because like I mentioned I never misinterpreted a lutz for a flip based off entry.

The aforementioned fact on edges often being imperfect (especially with the Russian ladies) is the biggest reason I rarely use that more correct method of discernment (watching for the takeoff edge).

By the way, its definitely true that Russian standards rarely put much emphasis on correct edges but rather full rotation, air position, and landing form. This will definitely be a rift for the Russian ladies when they go international. Since mild URs are almost always let go this season by ISU, meanwhile in Russia we often see -10 TES post-skate reductions just based off the q. And vice versa about the wrong takeoff edges - Russian judges do not care (AT ALL), but internationally the girls will probably suffer for it. The same goes for takeoff position - Russia allows much more kipping and force while ISU requires clean grace. I did however notice that international judges are more lenient with a wacky air axis or scuffed landing. But, I recognize that Russian judging has just been particularly brutal with this year, at least in the latter half. The spin and StSq calls have been medieval as Lariko put it.

 

[Mathman]

@Mathematician, I envy your quick and discerning eye. I still think that it is not so easy for most figure skating fans, however enthusiastic. That's why we are not judges and tech specialists.

 

[el henry]

I have been watching skating for 50 (aargh) years.

I cannot tell the jumps apart easily. Well, I can tell the toe jumps and the axels.

Here's a little secret: I haven't learned because it doesn't interest me as much. I don't care to spend the time to learn. That is me. Others may care greatly and want to know. And that's cool.

I am consistent across sports, though. Many of my fellow football fans wax rhapsodic over cover three vs. cover one defenses for example, and many other important technical details, pour over photos, freeze photos and slow mo videos, and I just can't be bothered. I don't look at the freeze frames and slo-mo for the NFL, I don't look at them for skating. I want to watch the game. Or the skate.

 

[TT_Fin]

I have been watching skating for 50 (aargh) years.

I cannot tell the jumps apart easily. Well, I can tell the toe jumps and the axels.

Here's a little secret: I haven't learned because it doesn't interest me as much. I don't care to spend the time to learn. That is me. Others may care greatly and want to know. And that's cool.

I am consistent across sports, though. Many of my fellow football fans wax rhapsodic over cover three vs. cover one defenses for example, and many other important technical details, pour over photos, freeze photos and slow mo videos, and I just can't be bothered. I don't look at the freeze frames and slo-mo for the NFL, I don't look at them for skating. I want to watch the game. Or the skate.

It is quite the same at the hockey. There are judges who give penaltiess. People don't know the rules are protest if a judge gives the penalty to their favourite team. But if a player if a hockey player of the opposing team makes a legal tackle, fans protest loudly. They have no idea about the rules when tackle is legal or not, but always your favourite is threatened wrong way. There is a comparison to FS. Favourites are always wuzrobbed, non-favourites overscored.

 

[icewhite]

It is quite the same at the hockey. There are judges who give penaltiess. People don't know the rules are protest if a judge gives the penalty to their favourite team. But if a player if a hockey player of the opposing team makes a legal tackle, fans protest loudly. They have no idea about the rules when tackle is legal or not, but always your favourite is threatened wrong way. There is a comparison to FS. Favourites are always wuzrobbed, non-favourites overscored.

Well, yes, of course that happens. But sometimes fans do see quite clearly that mistakes in judging have been made.
Granted, I'll likely not complain if my favourites get an unfair advantage. But it won't make me very happy either, because overall I want to see fair sportive competitions not a show contest like those singing contests on tv or a beauty pageant.
Sometimes people know the rules and are absolutely right in protesting. And especially a sport like figure skating needs good judging to be respected and not become a farce.

 

[icewhite]

Seeing the number of revolutions is something my brain does rather intuitively. Discerning the jumps is harder for me.
But what I will likely never get are the levels. I have to review everything a thousand times in slow motion, especially step sequences, especially ice dance elements, to see whether a level was correctly given, and in 99,5% of cases I will not go through that effort. I have to trust the judges.

The Russian judges are indeed very strict now on levels. I suppose they are correct.

Which imo makes the throwing around of PCS points even more likely not just a measure to push the scores but because it doesn't matter to them.