Evaluating USFS world team selection

[Koralai]

To be honest, I feel a bit sorry for Nathan. He's an amazing competitor but he is, after all, only 17. In the past few weeks there's been a ton of hype about him. As good a competitor as he is, that's a lot to live up to, especially given his boot problems. People are/were expecting him to win here and projecting him to take gold at the next Olympics. As much as he wants it, it's a pretty big adjustment in a short period.

You expressed what I've been feeling, too. Nathan seems like a very grounded person, but the short program at Worlds showed he's not totally immune to pressure. And if the past few years' experience with Gracie Gold are any guide, I think it's safe to say that the Hype Machine is ruthless and far more concerned with boosting ratings than with a skater's well-being. Let's hope Nathan is able to rise above all the bullsh*t as he prepares for the Olympics.

 

[el henry]

....
USFSA has got to start rewarding technical performance at US Nats. It's an old gripe of mine. They low-ball quads and quad attempts. They "give the benefit of the doubt" on clearly underrotated jumps, and this has the impact of nullifying the advantage of the skaters who can score internationally.

Jason has scores of fans. I was once one of the vocal ones, so I respect them. But as another contributor put it, "This is the World Championship; it's not Stars on Ice."

We should start supporting veterans like Max and especially up-and-comers like Vincent and Torgeshev (yes I know how he did at Junior World's) These youngsters are our future... and, it hurts me to say this... Jason is not the future. Jason isn't even the present.

Heck, get Jason a good fearless girl, and he can be part of a competitive and innovative pair team, which we are desperately in need of. He's young enough to do this.

Tonto, I know you were trying, so I'm trying as well, and maybe you can see where some of this wording is problematic to Jason's fans (or at least *this* Jason fan, who knows about anyone else)

I respect that some fans will love the big jumps, some fans will find that exciting, and some fans think we should be concentrating on jumps and whatever to get closer to that shiny gold. I get it, I really do. Not me, but as grandpa said, we can't all like the same thing.

I completely disagree that the USFS should support only those skaters who can rotate as many quads as possible. I don't love my stylish performer Andrew T. because I think he can land a quad. I don't think that's the only way to the shiny gold, but even if I did, as a Toller uber (and I know you could understand this Tonto), I don't think it's all that important. How could I?

But it is demeaning to Jason to say that his skating is "show skating". And that this isn't "Stars on Ice". Do you really think I haven't walked this earth long enough to know it's not Stars On Ice?

Jason maximizes every point he can, in the way a true sportsman and true elite athlete would. He is a competitive athlete. And he competes extraordinarily well.
I will continue to enjoy watching Jason compete. And everyone else can watch who they enjoy watching. And I will shake my cane at the Stars on Ice comments :dev2:

 

[TontoK]

I'm curious as to what people actually mean when they say that a federation should "support" or "place value" on skaters with quads/with some other quality. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just genuinely interested. How would that work in reality?

To me it sounds too much like 'they should pressure judges to give extra points if a skater does quads (or has some other quality), whether the judge in question thinks they deserve the points or no'.

C'mon, you're a knowledgeable fan. You know that US Nats is the competition where the tech panel is either drunk or asleep. When poor technique is given full credit for rotation or level, it diminishes the advantage of stronger technical skaters.

It's no secret that the tech panels at US Nationals are "loose."

People moan about two or three points in PCS, but completely ignore the much greater value that is awarded to poor jumps.

Aside from that, how about some MONEY to these young talents. Even the veterans. Special coaching clinics? If our federation can't do things like this to foster new talent, what's the point? We could get a committee of volunteers from GS to stage a US Nationals and award assignments. USFSA has got to do more than that.

 

[TontoK]

All of this.

All kinds of people enjoy skating. You're one of my favorites.

My quibble with your argument is that I think USFSA should more strongly support internationally competitive skaters, which may not be the same thing as "fan favorites."

Regarding you Toller reference... I totally agree that jumps weren't what made him special. But, it's got to be said that his technical merit was on par with the very best in the world. He managed to be special AND technically strong at the same time. He didn't sacrifice technique for artistry. He did BOTH.

 

[caseyl23]

I'm curious as to what people actually mean when they say that a federation should "support" or "place value" on skaters with quads/with some other quality. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just genuinely interested. How would that work in reality?

To me it sounds too much like 'they should pressure judges to give extra points if a skater does quads (or has some other quality), whether the judge in question thinks they deserve the points or no'.

I honestly have no idea how this would work in practice, but I will say this about the U.S. figure skating establishment/fans: It feels to me like they were stuck, way too long, in the debate that seemed to prevail in the early/mid 90s about quads and well into the 2000s - men could be divided into two categories, artists versus quad jumpers (with only a few very special exceptions). That attitude was very much apparent as recently as last year, with the debate about Adam Rippon and his artistry versus Nathan Chen and his quads. Yet in 2014 at the very latest, the international trend was heading toward the best skaters balancing multiple quads and quads in both programs with artistry. At Nationals that year, I still remember Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton gushing over the contrast between Max Aaron and Jason Brown and saying this sport had room for both styles. Well, no - not really. Not even then, at least not at the very top.

That door was blown wide open last season, yet the debate in the U.S. still seemed to be jumpers versus artists when clearly, the top skaters had moved WAY past that. So, if U.S. Figure Skating wants its men's skaters to be relevant in the years to come, it has to push both aspects. And I think the best way to do it is going to be through the skaters who are in their teens now - Chen, Zhou and company. No offense to Rippon, Aaron and Brown, but I think if they were going to do both, it needed to be instilled in them at a young age, and needing both just doesn't seem to have been in the federation/their coaches' mentalities as they were developing. I appreciate and am glad that they're trying, but they're playing catch-up. It's got to be really hard to to make such big changes to their skating at this point in their careers. Sure, the kids are rough around the edges, but they've got time on their side. It's a lot easier to imagine them matching the standard of the top international men than for Aaron to turn into a quad-landing artist or for Brown and Rippon to develop three or four different quads.

Moving forward, the U.S. can and should, though, get the most promising young skaters into whatever international competitions they can, get feedback about these kids' skating as early as possible and highly encourage them to develop all of their skating, not just one part. Quit the debating once and for all and start doing what they can to develop skaters up to the international standard. Nathan seems to be a start, although I worry a little about how, when anything remotely challenging comes up with him, the answer seems to be "more quads." The kid is in his first World Championship - I know there are high hopes for him, but I'd be satisfied with two solid skates within his known capability and a top-six finish, rather than risking his long-term health (last year's Nationals gala, anyone?) with such a risky strategy.

 

[TontoK]

Moving forward, the U.S. can and should, though, get the most promising young skaters into whatever international competitions they can, get feedback about these kids' skating as early as possible and highly encourage them to develop all of their skating, not just one part. Quit the debating once and for all and start doing what they can to develop skaters up to the international standard. Nathan seems to be a start, although I worry a little about how, when anything remotely challenging comes up with him, the answer seems to be "more quads." The kid is in his first World Championship - I know there are high hopes for him, but I'd be satisfied with two solid skates within his known capability and a top-six finish, rather than risking his long-term health (last year's Nationals gala, anyone?) with such a risky strategy.

You can pretty much bet that nobody at USFSA is encouraging Nathan to ease up. That's because of the insane focus of "Three Spots." Right now, they don't have them. Brown was perfect to get 8th, and is there any guarantee that he'll move up in the long, when the quads really start to stack? The best bet for Three Spots is for Nathan to improve his current placement and for Brown to hold on.

Of course, I always caveat predictions with "Ice is slippery."

 

[yelyoh]

Yeah, and Chen's fans were practically awarding him the World Championship already. How's that working out for you right now?

Overdoing it you are. Some fans such as myself, were expecting maybe a third place finish.

 

[yelyoh]

Why don't we just see how Jason is at the start of next year and if he cannot compete with the quad masters and he cannot deliver at Nats leave him at home. I'm not ready to write him off or cast him off.

 

[noskates]

All this talk is nice but...................which skater is going to put butts in seats at Nationals and Grand Prix competitions. For some the bottom line is how many quads can you land successfully. The reality is - while figure skating is a sport, it still needs people who want to buy the tickets, go to the competitions and fill those seats and I don't know if quads alone are going to do it. The average non figure skating fan probably couldn't tell a triple from a quad. Whether you think Jason is a show skater or just physically unable to compete with "the big dogs" he DOES put butts in those seats. If you want to be a purist - that's your prerogative. But this sport will die a dastardly death if people don't attach themselves to skaters and love them unequivocally to the point where they'll travel to competitions and shows and support them with the outrageous ticket prices. In the US I think Jason is ahead of everybody else in that process. He appeals to the crowd, he skates for the crowd, and his personality shows through every time he steps on the ice. If he never wins a World medal, if he never wins another Nationals, I would say more people in the US know who Jason Brown is (and have watched RiverDance a zillion times on Youtube) than pretty much anybody else competing. That doesn't mean there won't be "purists" who look at the technical ability and find that the most important. I honestly think they're in the minority....except for on this board.

 

[tulosai]

I'm curious as to what people actually mean when they say that a federation should "support" or "place value" on skaters with quads/with some other quality. I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just genuinely interested. How would that work in reality?

To me it sounds too much like 'they should pressure judges to give extra points if a skater does quads (or has some other quality), whether the judge in question thinks they deserve the points or no'.

I can only speak for myself. For at least 5ish years, it's seemed to me that USFSA judges simply don't score skaters at Nationals the way an international panel might be most likely to score them. That's because, for at least 5 ish years, international judges have been giving a quad bonus in PCS. Now one could certainly argue (and actually I personally believe) that this is wrong. One could further think/say that therefore, good for the USFSA judges for having some kind of weird integrity and not doing that, but I wouldn't go that far. That's because the fact is, that when all other countries judges are doing this, and therefore when internationally men with quads are scoring better than those without period, the only thing the USFSA judges are accomplishing by refusing to give into the trend is hurting their men's chances of maximizing world and Olympic spots.

This trend is only becoming more pronounced, though now less because there is some quad PCS boost (though IMO it does still occur) and more because almost all top men are not only attempting, but also successfully landing more than one quad. 4-5 years ago a clean Jason might expect to place 4-6 because fewer men were attempting multiple quads, and also it seemed to be a crapshoot for these men if they were actually going to land them or not- literally a coin toss. As we're seeing a clean Jason now might at best expect to place 7-10, and this is assuming a bit of help from some other men making errors, and only if Jason himself is perfect. (I don't want to make this about Jason though for the love of god, please no one comment on this about how Jason is doomed or Jason is a hard worker and will surely get a quad soon, my eyes can't take it).

 

[Mrs. P]

I can only speak for myself. For at least 5ish years, it's seemed to me that USFSA judges simply don't score skaters at Nationals the way an international panel might be most likely to score them. That's because, for at least 5 ish years, international judges have been giving a quad bonus in PCS. Now one could certainly argue (and actually I personally believe) that this is wrong. One could further think/say that therefore, good for the USFSA judges for having some kind of weird integrity and not doing that, but I wouldn't go that far. That's because the fact is, that when all other countries judges are doing this, and therefore when internationally men with quads are scoring better than those without period, the only thing the USFSA judges are accomplishing by refusing to give into the trend is hurting their men's chances of maximizing world and Olympic spots.

This trend is only becoming more pronounced, though now less because there is some quad PCS boost (though IMO it does still occur) and more because almost all top men are not only attempting, but also successfully landing more than one quad. 4-5 years ago a clean Jason might expect to place 4-6 because fewer men were attempting multiple quads, and also it seemed to be a crapshoot for these men if they were actually going to land them or not- literally a coin toss. As we're seeing a clean Jason now might at best expect to place 7-10, and this is assuming a bit of help from some other men making errors, and only if Jason himself is perfect. (I don't want to make this about Jason though for the love of god, please no one comment on this about how Jason is doomed or Jason is a hard worker and will surely get a quad soon, my eyes can't take it).

Good points and glad to take this to a more academic matter -- though I probably mention skaters in the context of the judging.

I do agree that historically USFSA has put a lot of stock in having an "all-around skater." Probably this is less a product of integrity and more so that USFSA was just accustomed to 6.0, a system that rewarded all-around skaters. Falls were penalized a lot more and the artistic mark mattered a whole lot more, especially since they broke ties for placements. USFSA was definitely slow in being COP savvy and still much so today.

But I don't know if its universal that every skater gets a quad bonus in PCS. I think you still have to either dazzle consistently with quads -- like Nathan has this season. And also that "bonus" can vary greatly with each skater. Max got a bit of a quad boost last season at Worlds, but clearly not as much as Nathan. Maxim Kovtun was getting a bit of a quad bonus when he was consistent (see 2014-2015) season, but that's gone down as he's become less consistent.

So regarding Jason -- strictly in the context of judging -- It's a bit a sort of quandary in terms of how to position him among the U.S. men, is that he has somehow managed to get high PCS in spite of not landing quads. In this very competition, he had the 5th highest PCS in both the SP and the FS. Although I think, oddly enough, the quad bonus is there for Jason also -- I do think he's getting a bit of a boost because he is at least attempting the quad in the FS at least (and was attempting it in both earlier in the season). I think one thing Jason and his team has done well is do programs that really helps him shine and compels the judges to give him those PCS scores.

Probably what would help me discuss this better is if you have specific examples. The only one I can think of is perhaps last season when Nathan had multiple quads and still finished behind Adam and Max (and Max finished behind Adam despite landing quads as well).

 

[concorde]

Lots of folks here commented that "experience" skaters have an advantage over "newbies" at Worlds since they newbies typically do not do well under the intense pressure. I think the newbie skaters this years that this assumption is false.

 

[binky]

jASON WAS amazing in the long and brought his heart to the program (and I dont even like jason). it was a well constructed program and with the best spin of the day. Jason was wonderful!

 

[andromache]

Against all odds and in spite of thread after thread of doubt and angst and debate, US ladies and US men both have 3 spots.

The so-called favorites (Ashley and Nathan) kind of owe the "weak links" (Jason and Karen) for delivering way more than anyone expected after Ashley and Nathan underperformed. Not a good Worlds for Rafael.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Not a good Worlds for Rafael.

Hopefully this is a learning experience for Ashley, rather than being the beginning of her losing her jumps. I think it's safe to say that none of the women did well enough at Worlds to use the result to get on to the Olympic team. Ashley, Gracie, and everyone else will have to earn those spots with their results during the 2017-18 GP season and Nationals.

 

[andromache]

Hopefully this is a learning experience for Ashley, rather than being the beginning of her losing her jumps. I think it's safe to say that none of the women did well enough at Worlds to use the result to get on to the Olympic team. Ashley, Gracie, and everyone else will have to earn those spots with their results during the 2017-18 GP season and Nationals.

Yeah I'm worried about Ashley's physical capability. It'd be one thing if she had solid jumps to begin with, but old habits die hard. I'm hoping she was just conservative this season.

I also think this was an enormous learning experience for Raf and Nathan. I'm excited to see how it impacts their strategy for the upcoming season.

 

[concorde]

Hopefully this is a learning experience for Ashley, rather than being the beginning of her losing her jumps. I think it's safe to say that none of the women did well enough at Worlds to use the result to get on to the Olympic team. Ashley, Gracie, and everyone else will have to earn those spots with their results during the 2017-18 GP season and Nationals.

I believe Karen now has a lock on the US #1 spot. Ashley is now #2 and trying to hold on with a bunch of others trying to overtake her.

 

[stella luna]

Lots of folks here commented that "experience" skaters have an advantage over "newbies" at Worlds since they newbies typically do not do well under the intense pressure. I think the newbie skaters this years that this assumption is false.

After all of the gritching about the ladies' world team and talk of wanting to send Gold regardless of how big of an egg she laid on the ice at Nationals (and some of that talk from Gold, herself), it was sweetly satisfying to see the "newbie" help secure our three spots.

 

[el henry]

All this talk is nice but...................which skater is going to put butts in seats at Nationals and Grand Prix competitions. For some the bottom line is how many quads can you land successfully. The reality is - while figure skating is a sport, it still needs people who want to buy the tickets, go to the competitions and fill those seats and I don't know if quads alone are going to do it. The average non figure skating fan probably couldn't tell a triple from a quad. Whether you think Jason is a show skater or just physically unable to compete with "the big dogs" he DOES put butts in those seats. If you want to be a purist - that's your prerogative. But this sport will die a dastardly death if people don't attach themselves to skaters and love them unequivocally to the point where they'll travel to competitions and shows and support them with the outrageous ticket prices. In the US I think Jason is ahead of everybody else in that process. He appeals to the crowd, he skates for the crowd, and his personality shows through every time he steps on the ice. If he never wins a World medal, if he never wins another Nationals, I would say more people in the US know who Jason Brown is (and have watched RiverDance a zillion times on Youtube) than pretty much anybody else competing. That doesn't mean there won't be "purists" who look at the technical ability and find that the most important. I honestly think they're in the minority....except for on this board.

Could not agree more!:agree:

Should USFS take into account Jason's unparalleled ability (for US men) to put butts in seats and attract eyeballs to the screen? I say yes. Even.In.A.Sport. JMO, of course, and others may disagree....

In any event, Vincent, Adam, Josh and all the others should be sending a muffin basket to Jason (I am concentrating on Jason because his was the selection that was doubted. And I don't know how many American skating fans were expecting Nathan to finish 6th. Poor kid, way too much hype, and it's not his fault).

And the rest of us can just watch Jason's glorious performances.

 

[TontoK]

Well, all the competitive skating is done.

USA gets the soooo important three spots in every discipline except pairs. But one single lonely bronze medal.

Poor outcome by my reckoning, but probably a success by USFSA standards.

I hope some young talents come out of nowhere to shock us all next year, especially in pairs.

I'm rooting for Cain and LeDuc, who I think show real promise.