Gilles and Poirier debut their Olympic programs | Golden Skate

Gilles and Poirier debut their Olympic programs

gsk8

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While the Canadians enter the season as World medalists, they don’t feel that their approach has changed. They acknowledge that the international ice dance field is strong.

“I think there are a lot of teams that could potentially be on the podium, including ourselves, and that’s really been our goal since the last Olympics,” Poirier said. “We know what we did last season got us the result that we wanted and I think we have a really good working plan. We know what in terms of competitions and preparation works best for us. I think what’s going to be the most important thing is, first of all, to skate well on the day at the games. I think even more importantly, is to have the pieces that people really believe in and get behind. That’s what we really wanted to make sure that we had with both of our programs this season.”

What do you think their chances are of making the World podium? Olympic podium?

What are your thoughts on the pieces they selected?
 

Colonel Green

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As far as the Olympic podium goes, I think the bronze is between the top three North American teams. On the balance you'd have to say the favourites for #3 are Hubbell & Donohue, just because they have prevailed in a majority of the matchups these three teams have had in the past few seasons; but all of the teams have beaten the other at some point, so it could go any of the three ways on the day.

Gilles & Poirier's biggest weakness remains the pattern dance levels, but they had good results on the Midnight Blues the last time it was used, so hopefully that will continue this time around, rather than with the Finnstep where I think Piper got one keypoint from an international panel in the course (what amounted to) one season.
 

surimi

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An Olympic medal would be a perfect career ending for them. They've been one of my favorite teams for years, and I'll be sad to see them retire after this season. That said, for purely personal reasons I wish they'd picked something different than Beatles music for their farewell FD. For the most part I dislike their songs in skating. I'm sure that the FD is going to be emotional and show their great musicality, though.
 

boysoprano

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The music is late sixties/seventies in origin (yes, I know the Elton John songs are just in the eighties, but he's really a seventies artist), so it's par for the course for Carol Lane as an older person whose abilty to become receptive to new music has diminished (which is what happens to the vast majority of people).

I don't think they deserve to be on the Olympic podium, but of course it all comes down to the individual competition and skate.
 

Colonel Green

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The music is late sixties/seventies in origin (yes, I know the Elton John songs are just in the eighties, but he's really a seventies artist), so it's par for the course for Carol Lane as an older person whose abilty to become receptive to new music has diminished (which is what happens to the vast majority of people).
:rolleye:

Do you think all the classical music is picked by coaches from the 1830s?
 

boysoprano

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:rolleye:

Do you think all the classical music is picked by coaches from the 1830s?
"New" is relative to the individual: it's a well known phenomenon. For example, Carol has chosen really old fashioned choices for Bashynka and beaumont too, but I doubt she was there when Kalinka was orignally written in 1860, however the period when she most likely heard it was in the seventies, when she would have been most receptive to music, because receptivity to new music generally decreases with age. You can look through Gilles/Poirier's bio- it's virtually all music or based on music between 1965 and 1982; and stuff that is older was probably experienced for the first time by Carol within that period. Their choices are very dated; and if you were presented with them without knowledge of whose playlist it was, you would guess it was someone in their seventies.

It's something anyone choosing music for teams should be aware of; and should reasonably, consciously counter.
 
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Skatesocs

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I don't think it looks like only Carol Lane's input went into this. Their description of their song selection makes it sound like it's personal for them. Yes, any reasonable person can correct for the bias you suggest, but it's taking away the autonomy from a team made up of two adults to say only their coach made that decision for them.

And honestly, it's the Beatles. They are evergreen, no need at all to attach a time period to them. Elton John is a queer icon too; Poirier publicly came out a few months ago, it probably means something to him to be selecting that song.
 

Colonel Green

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"New" is relative to the individual: it's a well known phenomenon. For example, Carol has chosen really old fashioned choices for Bashynka and beaumont too, but I doubt she was there when Kalinka was orignally written in 1860, however the period when she most likely heard it was in the seventies, when she would have been most receptive to music, because receptivity to new music generally decreases with age. You can look through Gilles/Poirier's bio- it's virtually all music or based on music between 1965 and 1982; and stuff that is older was probably experienced for the first time by Carol within that period. Their choices are very dated; and if you were presented with them without knowledge of whose playlist it was, you would guess it was someone in their seventies.

It's something anyone choosing music for teams should be aware of; and should reasonably, consciously counter.
I'm not sure why you have zeroed in on Carol Lane (particularly with the Russian music selections where the more obvious person to have suggested them would be Juris Razgulajevs) to begin with, but also, young people these days listen to plenty of older music. Nor has figure skating ever been about skating to primarily new music; indeed, most skaters don't.

Carol isn't the only person involved in music selection, either. They did "Both Sides Now" because they all knew the song from the movie Love Actually and wanted a Canadian artist for what was supposed to be a home Worlds. The "Vincent" program was inspired by them all seeing the movie Loving Vincent and trying to figure out how to make that work, before Lane eventually came across the Govardo cover version.
 

boysoprano

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I still think it's most likely the choices came from Carol: if it was a pattern that did not extend to her other teams, I would be, like, fair enough, and if there were a single example of anythiing more modern, I would think there was a younger person with a more determining input, but I just don't see that.
 

boysoprano

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that is absolutely false and a wild underestimation of people's ability to acquire taste with exposure and experience.
can you give me a link to a study that proves this?

So upon what basis do you ascribe the fact the music of that camp all commonly have strong links to that that 15-20 year time period?

Do you think it's that carol doesn't like synthesisers and sampled sounds or something like that, as they are generally outside the era she chooses music from?
 
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susanf

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The music is late sixties/seventies in origin (yes, I know the Elton John songs are just in the eighties, but he's really a seventies artist), so it's par for the course for Carol Lane as an older person whose abilty to become receptive to new music has diminished (which is what happens to the vast majority of people).
Can you give us a link to a study that proves this?
 

Colonel Green

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I still think it's most likely the choices came from Carol: if it was a pattern that did not extend to her other teams, I would be, like, fair enough, and if there were a single example of anythiing more modern, I would think there was a younger person with a more determining input, but I just don't see that.
Her other teams this season have music selections that include Macklemore and the Spice Girls. Gilles & Poirier have also done Caro Emerald, Alicia Keys and Beyonce.
 

4everchan

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boysoprano

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I've only glanced at this but it looks like a very flawed choice of study to challenge my original point. But thank you for it anyway.

As the first paragraph says...

"As music listeners, we are conservative: We like the music that we already know. This knowledge does not need to be extensive. Often, a single prior exposure with a par- ticular musical selection will induce a positive reaction to- ward it. This phenomenon has been known for a long time by social psychologists (see Meyer, 1903, for the pioneering study)."

From just scanning the opening, I think the flaws in your choice of study are- it's a clinically carried out study, whereby the individuals are behaving as per the requirements of a clinical study, and not as they might choose to do in real life.

There does not seem to be an age component to the results, but I did not really get far enough to see that for definite. In fact the eldest person tested seemed to be 40, so that does not help with regard to challenging the initial conjecture.

Her other teams this season have music selections that include Macklemore and the Spice Girls. Gilles & Poirier have also done Caro Emerald, Alicia Keys and Beyonce.
That's still not enough for me to say that the pattern isn't there, when i look at the full picture of teams. I also don't expect it to be an absolutist rule, just for it to be a preponderance. Thank you for pointing out those few examples though. I think with the Caro Emerald choice you have to accept that the musical form is not modern, and that beyonce and alicia keys choice is over a decade old. I do not know the teams doing the macklemore and spice girls. I shall look out for that. I presume they are younger than B/B.

Can you give us a link to a study that proves this?
It's a generally observed phenomenon, to do with the reminisence bump and how we form out identities. Some people will exhibit it less, and I am not stating that anyone exhibits it as an absolute. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2059204320965058

If you can't see the musical biases of that camp, then you can't see it. But equally, I would guess you can't see the biases of gadbois or Zhulin's camp, or Marina when she was ice dance; or the choreographers in other disciplines. Believe me those all exist too. however, there is a particularly strong one to the IDE teams, IMO, and I think it likely to do with the above; and the coaches would be wise to recognise to it and challenge it.
 
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Skatesocs

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I've only glanced at this but it looks like a very flawed choice of study to challenge my original point. But thank you for it anyway.
I agree these are valid challenges to the study presented in the context of your original point. There are some studies that explore mere-exposure effect with aging, but I think this:
It's a generally observed phenomenon, to do with the reminisence bump and how we form out identities. Some people will exhibit it less, and I am not stating that anyone exhibits it as an absolute. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2059204320965058
Is the main point (the effect of emotion and reminiscence), which supports your own argument. (ETA: Although, you would expect a choreographer/musician/someone who engages in the arts to exhibit it less when it comes to making artistic choices and judgments, at least)

I think in general, you might have a point (and I agree ID coaching teams have biases towards certain styles). I was only trying to compare your words with my understanding of the interview presented in the thread, not Lane's general preferences.
 

boysoprano

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Is the main point (the effect of emotion and reminiscence), which supports your own argument. (ETA: Although, you would expect a choreographer/musician/someone who engages in the arts to exhibit it less when it comes to making artistic choices and judgments, at least
Yes it's to do with how we form out identities and then how then behave as result of how our identities have formed. You may well hear a piece of music for the first time that is modern and find it overwhelming and inspiring, but your behavioural biases and emotional biases are generally in effect in terms of how you appreciate and select music. I don't know how old anyone is, but if you are 15 every piece of music is new and thrilling, every lyric can become part of who you are, you are routinally experiencing things for the first and pieces of music get associsations because of that( and that's without factoring in the social importance of music lessens as you get older). But there is generally a point where you have formed enough of yourself and your tastes for that that you move on and experience life differently.

It's something all choreographers and those who conceptualise programmes should be aware of; and should be consciously working against (are you choreographing nostalgically, would a be a good question for any choreographer to ask of themselves). I can think of examples with many choreographers. But the IDE one just really sticks out, because there is a very clearly defined cut off point for the bias (1985 at the latest, and really it is a late sixties and seventies bias) and the bias is very strong.
 
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