Gilles and Poirier debut their Olympic programs

[boysoprano]

maybe you should read the entire study.... and there are others... i rest my case. I disagree with your statement wholeheartedly. You are free to believe whatever you want

If you do have a relevant study please do post a link!

 

[4everchan]

If you do have a relevant study please do post a link!

i already did no need for me to engage any further.

 

[boysoprano]

i already did no need for me to engage any further.

no, it was a clinical study that I could see, where the data was not broken down in to age groups, and where the age group tested was up to 40. It would need to have a non-clinical element, have particpants in all age groups, and for the data to be broken down in to age groups. You may well find that you are correct with regard to the clinical setting even for older age groups, but likely to find that outside of a clinical setting those results would not exist, because of psycholgical and other additional factors which did not exist in the clinical setting, where the "ability to be receptive to new music" has been defined in a very limited way.

 

[4everchan]

no, it was a clinical study that I could see, where the data was not broken down in to age groups, and where the age group tested was up to 40. It would need to have a non-clinical element, have particpants in all age groups, and for the data to be broken down in to age groups. You may well find that you are correct with regard to the clinical setting even for older age groups, but likely to find that outside of a clinical setting those results would not exist, because of psycholgical and other additional factors which did not exist in the clinical setting, where the "ability to be receptive to new music" has been defined in a very limited way.

look, you asked me to prove my point.... my point is not related to age but to exposure and experience. That study shows that. I am a musician and i don't work in a clinical setting or in 'a study" . I experience it every day for myself and with my colleagues, and with the students I teach. I can make anyone love anything by exposing them to the music. I also believe that people in this field or a related field like choreographers are avid learners of all kinds of music. Carol Lane and others may still have their preference but I disagree with your statement that she only does one thing and that thing is related to her age and music she heard when she was a teenager. I have no problem at all if you disagree with me.

 

[boysoprano]

look, you asked me to prove my point.... my point is not related to age but to exposure and experience. That study shows that. I am a musician and i don't work in a clinical setting or in 'a study" . I experience it every day for myself and with my colleagues, and with the students I teach. I can make anyone love anything by exposing them to the music. I also believe that people in this field or a related field like choreographers are avid learners of all kinds of music. Carol Lane and others may still have their preference but I disagree with your statement that she only does one thing and that thing is related to her age and music she heard when she was a teenager. I have no problem at all if you disagree with me.

well, in terms of the music of this thread, you certainly failed to make me love it in terms of point and counterpoint, in which it was severely egregious. all the best!

 

[ladyjane]

I am relatively old (55, and not ashamed of it). I love lots of music, from classical to pop and heavy metal, from epic film soundtracks to unplugged guitar playing without or with lyrics. I don't like all classical composers and their music, nor do I like all heavy metal. I definitely don't only love music from when I was a teenager. Or the other way round. I hated opera at the time, now I love it. I hated Abba songs at the time, now I love them. And there's also lots of music from that time I loved then and still love. Not always appropriate for skating (I'm still waiting for a programme to 'Anarchy in the UK' from the Sex Pistols but I doubt it'll ever happen). There's a lot of new stuff I love as well. No study, just me. It's anecdotal. I also think it's ageist in the most negative way to focus on the music preference of one coach, and then demanding a study so someone else had to disapprove a point that is simply discriminatory. And when someone does put in some work and actually providing one, the study is being debunked as being too clinical.

Why the generalisation and why the focus on one coach? I thought this was a lovely article about a great ID couple who chose their music together with the whole team - it's what Piper and Paul wish to show to celebrate their story. It's great that their whole team can make these choices so that the skaters feel happy and comfortable. It's got nothing to do with the age of the coach. End of.

You don't have to like a music choice, in fact we have enjoyable discussions about music choices in the competition threads all the time and we don't all agree there either. But we do have some great laughs. I have yet to see that being related to age, but then we make jokes about our ages too.

 

[boysoprano]

And when someone does put in some work and actually providing one, the study is being debunked as being too clinical.

the point is that the results were got in a clinical setting and therefore not necessarily repeateable or those which would be got in real life, because the environment was artificial. You can play someone twenty new pieces of music in a lab, and those people may say they like them, but that doesn't mean in the real world they would have listened to those twenty pieces of music. it's a clinical result.

In addition, the study was not relevant to a rebuttal of the point made for reasons previously outlined.

No study, just me. It's anecdotal.

precisely, you are an anecdote. I actually experience this bias as an older person. In my twenties I could break down the charts, read every music magazine, was always seeking new sounds, and music more often than not took on a much more personal meeaning in a way new music i listen to never does. I am of course also an anecdote. But I think I am more the norm.......

Why the generalisation and why the focus on one coach?

the discussion is of Piper and Paul's music choices. I've said what I see is the general cutting off point for music from that camp, and I was in no way surprised by either of the music choices- they seemed wholly predictable. I could easily point out biases, nostalgic choreographing from other coaches as well, but that's not this thread.

a point that is simply discriminatory

a point cannot be discriminatory. it's just a point. the choices from the camp are often extremely old fashioned, and very little of it is recent (i.e. in the last two decades) music, in terms of culture or origination. I want to think why?

So in response to the question of what do you think of the music choices of Piper and Paul as per the introducton to this article, I think they are old fashioned, I think they are very predictable, and I think they fall in line with the choices of their camp in general, in that they fall in to a twenty year period of 1965-1985. I think the camp would greatly benefit by recognising their biases and why they exist. If you disagree with my hypothesis, you disagree. But I still think it's correct.

Also, we're not talking about about a general cut off point of 5 or ten years ago, we're talking of a cut off point of thirty five years ago. That's a loonnnnnggggg time ago.

Having now seen their RD, I also don't think it will hold up amongst the majority of the dances we will see...... for precisely these reasons.

 

[ladyjane]

Yay! I don't know what I want but I know how to get it. The song is 45 years old.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmWs6Jf5dc .

 

[dorispulaski]

I wish this discussion about music choice linked up with the actual requirements for the rhythm Dance, because as it is, the discussion does not link up to why particular songs are chosen for Ice dance- and that choice has little to do with the age of the choreographers and more to do with the tastes of the ISU Ice Dance committee.

The required rhythm for this year's RD is the blues- a music form that is a lot older than either Carol Lane or Elton John!

Furthermore, the arrangement must meet the timing requirements for the Midnight Blues pattern dance, during both the blues pattern and the pattern step elements. (at least half the dance!)

So you should not criticize the team for picking what is actually a relatively recent blues song!

Blues goes back to the 19th century, at least

This is the governing ISU document for this season's rhythm dance:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/24923-2346-id-guidelines-for-rhythm-dance-season-2021-22/file&ved=2ahUKEwibhZjwmIfzAhXiEVkFHf9sAdcQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0OZcd-wE-NTZ8_lnLimQEE

The Tempo of the music throughout the Pattern Dance Element must be constant and in accordance
with the required Tempo and character of the chosen Rhythm.
• Pattern Dance Element: Midnight Blues, range 86-96 beats per minute

P(attern) S(tep)T skated to the same Rhythm and character chosen for the Midnight Blues, a dance accepted about 1999. The chosen
tune may be the same as for Midnight Blues or different but must have the same tempo. The
Tempo of the music throughout Midnight Blues and PSt must be constant and in accordance
with the required range of Tempo.

And yes, the officials check the tempo

The other rhythm(s) maybe picked from Street Dance Rhythms: (such as hip hop, disco, swing, krump, popping, funk, etc.), jazz, reggaeton

It is never safe to pick from your own idea of a rhythm, as penalties for using the wrong music result in a really big point loss. Teams almost always pick from the dance forms listed in the season's ISU document.

So
Funk-originated mid 60's
Swing- popular in 1930's - 1950's
Hip hop- originated in the 1970s
Jazz -late 19th-early 20th century
Disco - 1970's
Reggaeton - mid 1990's
Popping - 1970's
Krumping - 1990's

In other words, every team has to pick from musical / dance forms that originated no later than the 1990's, or suffer substantial penalties.

Criticizing them for doing so does not recognize the constraints the rules put on their choices.

Now I would quite like a team to choose from some really classic blues like 'Last Kind Word Blues" by Geeshie Wiley from the 1930's. The original recording has a lot of hisses and pops, but a cover version would likely work better for Ice dance, because a more regular tempo allows you to better demonstrate steps that earn you full credit.

RHIANNON GIDDENS - Last kind words blues (Geeshie Wiley)

Northsea Jazz Club Amsterdam, January 23, 2016

youtu.be

And no, I was not alive on the 1930's.
I heard about Wiley (and this song) in a story on the NYT in 2014

The Ballad of Geeshie and Elvie (Published 2014)

On the trail of the phantom women who changed American music and then vanished without a trace.

www.nytimes.com

So Elton John is not my blues choice because he is too recent.

 

[anonymoose_au]

My suspect fashion sense strikes again, but I love Piper and Paul's orange RD costumes!

Mad props to them for always embracing the theme!

 

[Weathergal]

The music is late sixties/seventies in origin (yes, I know the Elton John songs are just in the eighties, but he's really a seventies artist), so it's par for the course for Carol Lane as an older person whose abilty to become receptive to new music has diminished (which is what happens to the vast majority of people).

I don't think they deserve to be on the Olympic podium, but of course it all comes down to the individual competition and skate.

You must not recall their 2015-2016 FD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woKl_yx1P_0

Your comment seems rather ageist to me - I'm probably younger than Carol Lane but certainly much older than Piper and Paul LOL And I'm constantly discovering and falling in love with new artists and new music in many genres, including some stuff that even my grown son sometimes is surprised I listen to. I'm honestly curious - is this a comment you'd make about other older coaches like Rafael Artunian, Alexei Mishin, Alexander Zhulin?

Also as @dorispulaski points out, the rhythm dance's style/tempo restrictions often influence those choices.

 

[rain]

Long and Winding Road is far from my favourite of the Beatles repertoire, so I'm not ecstatic to hear this is their choice for the Olympic season. It's so morose, at least in its original form. There's no build in the music. I hope they can work their magic with it, and have come up with a great rendition. I hope it won't be another Perry Mason situation. Their RD is great.

 

[fzztsimmons]

Long and Winding Road is far from my favourite of the Beatles repertoire, so I'm not ecstatic to hear this is their choice for the Olympic season. It's so morose, at least in its original form. There's no build in the music. I hope they can work their magic with it, and have come up with a great rendition. I hope it won't be another Perry Mason situation. Their RD is great.

If you're interested, Govardo (who did P2's Vincent programme, and they're using for this year's FD) have today just posted their cover of the "Long and Winding Road" on youtube - with a picture of Piper & Paul as the cover photo. I am assuming this is the cover they will be using, and I have to say I think it has incredible potential - it's very different to the original Beatles track, there's definitely build to it!!

 

[4everchan]

If you're interested, Govardo (who did P2's Vincent programme, and they're using for this year's FD) have today just posted their cover of the "Long and Winding Road" on youtube - with a picture of Piper & Paul as the cover photo. I am assuming this is the cover they will be using, and I have to say I think it has incredible potential - it's very different to the original Beatles track, there's definitely build to it!!

Thanks for sharing this

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Managed to catch up with both of Piper and Paul's programs.
I enjoyed the RD more than the FD; the RD costumes are fun and I think the music cuts are good (especially compared to some of the other teams I've seen so far). The step seq was great with the music and very in synch, only criticism I have is that it seemed to me to be a lot on two feet. It makes a great finish to the program though, and there are lots of music-appropriate transitions throughout, which I liked.

When I heard the music choice for the FD, I was worried it would be a rehash of their previous programs. It's not as bad in this respect as I feared, however, to me, it doesn't feel very fresh either. The program, for me, felt like it took a while to get going but improved once the music sped up. I really liked the one foot step, it fitted beautifully with the music and got great levels too. The first half of the combo lift was lovely, with Piper in a very pretty position. Their levels got dinged in the twizzles and combo spin, hopefully the can sort this for the next comp. All in all, for me, it's a solid FD but not one which particularly excites me.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I actually liked the FD more. The first half of the RD felt flat to me. Idk, I need to see them both with better camera work before I make my final judgement

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Idk, I need to see them both with better camera work before I make my final judgement

Agreed, I felt the same about a number of the programs at Lombardia too.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Piper and Paul were wonderful in the RD, and great in this FD to The Long and Winding Road! I'm very sentimental, so I had an emotional reaction while watching their FD. All I can say is, "I love Paul and Piper!" They deserve so much to be rewarded for their excellence and for all of their contributions to the sport. Kudos to them! And I hope they have a great season. I enjoy watching so many favorite programs of theirs that they have performed during their fun, creative and prolific partnership. My cup runneth over these last few seasons watching them weave their magic together on the ice.

I could tell that AC commentators, Kevin Reynolds and Kaitlyn Weaver, were also experiencing a lot of emotions. For sure, as Kevin said, Paul and Piper are 'taking us with them' on this final lap of their amazing, eventful, and poignant ice dance journey. At the end of their performance, I blew a big kiss to P&P right through the screen. Brava! Bravo! Godspeed Piper and Paul!

Great commentating btw from Kevin and his compadres on these broadcasts! I can see Kevin taking over SC commentating duties from Rod Black, which needs to happen asap! LOL!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

All in all, for me, it's a solid FD but not one which particularly excites me.

Subjectivity and all that, for sure. However, it seems that you haven't been with Piper & Paul on their journey from the very beginning. So, you don't appear to get all of the nuances, the beautiful connection, the intention, the emotion, and the spirit of their partnership dance through the years. Your loss, if that's the case. This program is the touching culmination of everything they have given to us and to each other. It's not grand, self-important or overly self-reflective, but it is lovely and creative. It certainly references their recent FDs, in a good, emotional and relevant way. It's not a 'rehash,' as you say you 'feared.' But then maybe you missed what the other programs are about as well.

You may not feel 'freshness' from this FD, as you say. I'm not sure what kind of 'freshness' you are seeking though. [BTW, Kaitlyn Weaver, in her commentating role, described this FD as both 'familiar and fresh.' So I guess Kaitlyn disagrees with you there ] For me, P&P are as creative, quirky and interesting as always. Nothing they have ever created has been stale. Their journey isn't just starting and their bodies aren't young anymore. But their minds and their hearts are as fresh, stimulating, delightful, clever, and expressive as always. If you don't get it, you don't get it. And that's okay.

ETA:
I'm also not sure what you mean by the program 'not exciting you.' What were you expecting? Do programs always have to be 'exciting'? I find it altogether stimulating and expressive, in the way the rendition is sung, in the choreography, and in P&P's poignant performance (which is lovely and evocative of their partnership dance over the years).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Addendum to my previous post:
Of course, everybody doesn't have to like or enjoy P&P's latest FD. But once again, if you've followed their career together closely, then I'm not sure how fans of theirs could miss understanding their personalities and their intentional creativity, as expressed through the work they have done for many years, in collaboration with each other and with their coaches and choreographers.

I'm full of emotion while watching their new FD, not so much for its individual parts or from a detached perch of analyzing technical dance steps. It's more about what every nuance and move evokes overall. For me, experiencing emotions is a large part of what figure skating is about. If you've been on even part of the journey with Piper & Paul, wouldn't you feel the emotions they always convey together on the ice?

ETA: When you are coming to the end of a journey and you're on the final lap, do you feel 'excited'? Personally, I would feel more reflective, nostalgic perhaps, maybe even a little sadness mixed with gladness. Also, perhaps a bit of anticipation for the next chapter, but more-so trying to feel centered, calm, thankful and aware of each passing moment because they will be the last ones experienced on this final journey. Listen to the lyrics of The Long and Winding Road.

I enjoyed P&P's 2017 Perry Mason program, maybe because I used to watch Perry Mason with my Dad growing up. It was one of his favorite television programs. I do think that the change of music and choreography P&P made later that season (Thunderball/ Octopussy James Bond medley), probably better expressed the 'spy thriller' theme they apparently were aiming for. I absolutely love P&P's 'Hitchcock' FD from 2014:

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

www.youtube.com

Piper & Paul have always given everything they've got, and utilized all that they've got, and then some. They've created memorable moments on the ice that I won't soon forget. I'm sure their career and their prodigious output will last and resonate as much for future fans of ice dance, as it does for current fans and for discerning members of the ice dance community.

I wonder if fans of P&P found this program 'exciting.' I did. It was the start of their journey together. I was with them all the way. "Come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination..." Thanks for the memories, Piper & Paul!

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier. FD. 2012 Canadian Figure Skating Championships

www.youtube.com