Great spinners with less flexibility

[Flying Feijoa]

Regardless of whether you prefer the 6.0 or IJS system, we can probably all agree that a good spin is fast, centred and includes beautiful/interesting positions. Hard work usually improves speed and centering for most people, but positions depend a lot on natural flexibility (although core strengthening and stretching can help). However, it's not universally true.

To give hope to skaters whose ligaments won't let them do an I-spin/Biellmann/donut (e.g. me ), can you name any favourite skaters who may not be gifted with contortionist-level flexibility, but who have great spinning talent? Or any skaters who used to be terrible at spins but improved a lot through training?

For the first, I nominate Stephane Lambiel, Todd Eldredge and Keegan Messing. Female examples are harder to come by (these days they all seem to be contortionists or damage their spines trying), perhaps Midori Ito?

As for most-improved skaters, I recall Michal Brezina and Brian Joubert - their spins aren't amazing but certainly much better than earlier in their careers.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Kaetlyn Osmond definitely improved her spins from when she first burst onto the scene.

And Nicole Rajicova: Its easy to see the flexibility is a struggle for her, but she can spin fast.

Laura Lepisto as well.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Roman Sadovsky? I dont know if you consider him flexible but his spins are very good

 

[readernick]

I think Bradie Tennell is probably the best example of a ladies skater with great spins and without incredible flexibility. Her spins are really centered and fast, but she can't achieve or is not willing to risk further back injury to achieve the same positions as many other skaters. The positions she does achieve aren't always astectically pleasing but they are very interesting!

My favorite spinner without good flexibility is one you already mentioned Keegan Messing. His spins are so fast and so centered.

 

[Jeanie19]

I love Deniss Vasiljevs spins.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Roman Sadovsky? I dont know if you consider him flexible but his spins are very good

Roman's spins are great (right up there with Jason Brown) but with that donut spin I'd say he counts as a flexible guy

One spin that I absolutely love that doesn't demand too much flexibility - but a lot of core strength - is the layover back camel (or whatever it's called). Roman's got a beautiful one. Jeff Buttle had a nice one too, although not quite as crazily laid-over.
When done with a parallel passe position, it's probably better-known as the Yuna spin. Hers is awesome too, but the straight leg version is just with long-legged skaters.
I adore a well-done basic camel position too, e.g. Kolyada's.

I love Deniss Vasiljevs spins.

His super-fast mushroom is amazing! (At least my first coach called it that - the tucked-behind sit spin position).

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Americans Scott Davis and Paul Wylie had nice spins.

 

[el henry]

I would like to say that love the idea that every skater should learn a good spin and be given hope for good spinning!

But flexibility is not dependent on one's natural physique, any more than any aspect of figure skating.

Exhibit A; Jason Brown's SP as a Novice Skater

Traveling spins, and even a butt spin. From Jason
Now I am not saying this to pick apart a novice skater who was obviously still learning his craft. But to say that flexibility can be learned, can be worked on, is a result of training and skill and hard work as much as revolutions in the air.

Baby Jason's charm, OTOH, was off the charts even then. Some things are natural

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I love Deniss Vasiljevs spins.

Deniss actually used to be able to do a really good biellmann. I'm not sure if he did it as a junior or if it was just old pictures, but it was good.
Hes obviously lost his flexibility as he aged, but he still has (some of) the best sit spins

 

[Greengemmonster]

I think Bradie Tennell is probably the best example of a ladies skater with great spins and without incredible flexibility. Her spins are really centered and fast, but she can't achieve or is not willing to risk further back injury to achieve the same positions as many other skaters. The positions she does achieve aren't always astectically pleasing but they

Sometimes it's like you read my mind!!!

I seriously was going to type something along these lines but you've said it already

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I would like to say that love the idea that every skater should learn a good spin and be given hope for good spinning!

But flexibility is not dependent on one's natural physique, any more than any aspect of figure skating.

...
Now I am not saying this to pick apart a novice skater who was obviously still learning his craft. But to say that flexibility can be learned, can be worked on, is a result of training and skill and hard work as much as revolutions in the air.

Well, I didn't mean to imply that flexible skaters haven't worked hard on their flexibility, or that it can't be improved by hard work.

but positions depend a lot on natural flexibility (although core strengthening and stretching can help).

Of course Jason like all skaters had to work on his flexibility, but it's a combination of nature and nurture. Otherwise we'd be seeing Keegan doing Beillmanns. Flexibility definitely has more of a 'nature' component than skating skills, for example.

The fact is there are skaters who are physically incapable of getting their bodies into an I-spin, a Biellmann or a spread-eagle no matter how hard they try, because their skeletal structure and ligaments don't allow it. I don't think they should be pressured into futile and dangerous spin positions if it's not safely possible for them, like we see with a lot of girls aggravating their back injuries with Biellmann spins. Neither should they (or fans and judges) categorise themselves as 'bad spinners' just because they can't hit extreme positions. I'd just like for skaters to maximise the capabilities of their own unique body structures.

 

[fzztsimmons]

I think Bradie Tennell is probably the best example of a ladies skater with great spins and without incredible flexibility. Her spins are really centered and fast, but she can't achieve or is not willing to risk further back injury to achieve the same positions as many other skaters. The positions she does achieve aren't always astectically pleasing but they are very interesting!

My favorite spinner without good flexibility is one you already mentioned Keegan Messing. His spins are so fast and so centered.

Whilst I agree Bradie has fantastic spins, she has both a biellman and an I-spin - things that require pretty incredible flexibility. It may not be Valieva-level (but who else is tbh) but I would definitely put Bradie in the incredible flexibility category based on those abilities. It's definitely much much harder to think of ladies who don't have biellmans - Tuktik comes to mind, but then her spins aren't great (though props to her for improving them this season). Medvedeva doesn't have her biellman anymore due to injury, but she is still pretty flexible when you look at her I-spin and skid spiral.

In regards to the men, Keegan is definitely up there showing the non-flexible men how it's done. His spins are excellent.

 

[mrrice]

For the Men that I have seen skate live, I have to go with Todd Eldredge. For "Non" Flexible Ladies..........I think Tatiana Melinina had the best spins. Lucinda Ruh was obviously very flexible and still has the best spins I have ever seen.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Whilst I agree Bradie has fantastic spins, she has both a biellman and an I-spin - things that require pretty incredible flexibility. It may not be Valieva-level (but who else is tbh) but I would definitely put Bradie in the incredible flexibility category based on those abilities. It's definitely much much harder to think of ladies who don't have biellmans - Tuktik comes to mind, but then her spins aren't great (though props to her for improving them this season). Medvedeva doesn't have her biellman anymore due to injury, but she is still pretty flexible when you look at her I-spin and skid spiral.

In regards to the men, Keegan is definitely up there showing the non-flexible men how it's done. His spins are excellent.

Yeah, it's a bit difficult to name female examples. I guess it's partly because women are on average more flexible than men, so the definition of a less-flexible female skater might have to be broadened, e.g. ladies like Wakaba Higuchi or even Kim Yuna (post-2010) aren't considered flexible but can still do haircutters and I-spins.

Another possible reason might be that girls who aren't extremely flexible get out-competed and discouraged early on in their career unless they're outstanding in other areas like jumps. Young girls seem to get advanced spins faster than jumps, and when those jumps are just doubles, maybe the relative worth of spins is much higher (especially under IJS)?

 

[4everchan]

Jeff Buttle, Patrick Chan (look at the centering, the position, the speed... his spins are all about elegance and simplicity) Stephane Lambiel (the best), Todd Eldredge, Scott Davis and Keegan Messing are also awesome. I would put Roman Sadovsky in those with relative flexibility...

 

[el henry]

Well, I didn't mean to imply that flexible skaters haven't worked hard on their flexibility, or that it can't be improved by hard work.

Of course Jason like all skaters had to work on his flexibility, but it's a combination of nature and nurture. Otherwise we'd be seeing Keegan doing Beillmanns. Flexibility definitely has more of a 'nature' component than skating skills, for example.

The fact is there are skaters who are physically incapable of getting their bodies into an I-spin, a Biellmann or a spread-eagle no matter how hard they try, because their skeletal structure and ligaments don't allow it. I don't think they should be pressured into futile and dangerous spin positions if it's not safely possible for them, like we see with a lot of girls aggravating their back injuries with Biellmann spins. Neither should they (or fans and judges) categorise themselves as 'bad spinners' just because they can't hit extreme positions. I'd just like for skaters to maximise the capabilities of their own unique body structures.

Oh, I definitely agree that some folks are more naturally inclined to certain elements than others. I am sorry if it came off otherwise. I think I am sensitive because sometimes I perceive an attitude that "Oh Jason just goes out and spins on the ice and that's so much easier because of his physique than what other skaters do" (NOT from you, @Flying Feijoa ) so I wanted to put in a plug for how difficult it is to do what Jason does

Funny thing, also, for someone who loves spins, I do not like I-Spins. Or true Bielmanns . At all. I remember first seeing Denise Bielmann and thinking, "Thank God, no one else will want to do this spin"

So much for my prediction powers

 

[gkelly]

Here's a great spin with no special flexibility:

- YouTube

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Ronnie Robertson:

The golden age of U.S. Figure Skaters 1953-1960 - ISU Archives

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF We dusted off the skating archive to show you some of our sports greatest legends.SUBSCRIBE to our channel!LIK...

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[Flying Feijoa]

Oh, I definitely agree that some folks are more naturally inclined to certain elements than others. I am sorry if it came off otherwise. I think I am sensitive because sometimes I perceive an attitude that "Oh Jason just goes out and spins on the ice and that's so much easier because of his physique than what other skaters do" (NOT from you, @Flying Feijoa ) so I wanted to put in a plug for how difficult it is to do what Jason does

No worries! Certainly, it's not easy for Jason as a man and as a skater in his mid-twenties to develop and maintain that level of flexibility while staying healthy. And his speed and centring is down to plain old hard work.

Here's a great spin with no special flexibility:

- YouTube

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www.youtube.com

Wow, almost half a minute with negligible loss of speed through all the position changes!

Reminds me a little of Jeff Buttle's spins: https://youtu.be/mI8yjFDxx_k?t=213 (20 seconds, not bad!)
Roman's got great combo spins too, but he's also a bendy guy so off this list

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Jeremy Abbott, Evan Lysacek, Kurt Browning.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Denis Ten.