Great spinners with less flexibility

[Flying Feijoa]

wasn't it Akiko Suzuki who did the change edge catch foot? i remember she was the first one i saw do it, and was like woah! way to make up for not doing a beillmann and it's a crazy hard feature.

Not sure if Akiko was first historically, but I recall Alaine Chartrand had a nice change edge haircutter layback too (saw it in her 2015-16 programmes).

She also hates I-spins because she thinks they’re ugly unless done the way Kamila Valieva and Mariah Bell do them.

Are the Kim Yuna-style (leg in front) and Lipnitskaya (leg by ear) styles both classified as I-spins? I kind of get what she means; with both versions the arms tend to look a bit 'grabby' and the foot is flexed. Sometimes the leg-by-ear variant is held too long until it comes to a standstill too.

I'd call Mariah and Kamila's a V-spin (Anastasia Gubanova does a nice one too). The upper body tends to look less strained in that position, it's very similar to ballet where we stretch at the barre in ecarte position. It's nice because it lets the skater point their toe and hold the free arm out overhead.

Now we've definitely ventured into flexi territory here, but never mind

 

[Tonight's the Night]

Well this addresses the question of flexibility, right? So here are examples of both Kamila and Mariah doing whatever this position is called (I would love to know).

Kamila (at the end of the whole spin):

https://youtu.be/z81IE4elyD8?t=128

Mariah:

https://youtu.be/sRTy4mcJjaw?t=74

These are the same position in principle, right, and this position differs from both the Yuna position and the Yulia position?

But Kamila is just more ... flexible?... than Mariah? I was in fact thinking of Mariah when I first saw this thread but didn't trust myself to say it.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Well this addresses the question of flexibility, right? So here are examples of both Kamila and Mariah doing whatever this position is called (I would love to know).

Y-spin I think (mentioned in my previous post). Also, Alissa Czisny is quite well-known for it: https://youtu.be/E-XIncejFUg?t=53

I wouldn't call anyone who can do a Y-spin inflexible... But to stay true to the spirit of this thread, it's worth highlighting that even the famous spinners who happen to be very flexible (Alissa, Lucinda Ruh, Roman Sadovsky, Jason Brown and the like) aren't good spinners because they're flexible, but because they have really good basic spinning skills. Even when they're not hitting crazy positions (e.g. just watching a basic sit or camel) they look awesome due to speed, centring, and other purely spin technique-based features like acceleration and edge changes.

I can't remember if anyone's mentioned Joshua Farris yet - here's a very pretty combo spin of his: https://youtu.be/1FyUIfXKyHI?t=88
It's hard to find such a nice change-edge feature on a front camel! Many people lose speed and have an awkward position when they do it. Also, the last change of position from the upright straight-leg catchfoot into the back sit is beautiful

 

[1111bm]

I can't remember if anyone's mentioned Joshua Farris yet - here's a very pretty combo spin of his: https://youtu.be/1FyUIfXKyHI?t=88
It's hard to find such a nice change-edge feature on a front camel! Many people lose speed and have an awkward position when they do it. Also, the last change of position from the upright straight-leg catchfoot into the back sit is beautiful

To be honest, it does look like he is in fact noticeably losing speed though... (but a nicely stretched and pointed free leg, so yay for that).
I've seen another skater do that last change of position, but it was a BI spin, looked similar though. Seems pretty 'awkward' for the skater to go down into the sit like that, because both were losing speed while doing so, but it's still kind of intriguing looking.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

To be honest, it does look like he is in fact noticeably losing speed though... (but a nicely stretched and pointed free leg, so yay for that).
I've seen another skater do that last change of position, but it was a BI spin, looked similar though. Seems pretty 'awkward' for the skater to go down into the sit like that, because both were losing speed while doing so, but it's still kind of intriguing looking.

Nathan Chen did the same catchfoot upright to sit change (with leg staying straight) in an early version of his Mao's Last Dancer programme, which I thought was really elegant and fit the theme. However, he later switched the straight-leg sit to a tuck-behind version instead, I guess because preserving speed was a higher priority. Wish he could bring it back for exhibitions.

 

[el henry]

Josh Farris (retired too soon) is one of the reasons Jason worked so hard on his spins. From a 2014 article interviewing the mutual admiration society of Josh and Jason:

"When I was younger, Josh was like a rubber band and super flexible, and Kori (Brown's coach) would say, 'Look at that, look how flexible he is.' And that's why I became so flexible."

https://jasonbrown.figureskatersonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/FarrisBrown.pdf

 

[TontoK]

For most ladies nowadays their level features for laybacks seem to be: illusion entry + 8 counts (in regular layback) + haircutter position (or sideways-leaning) for minimum 3 counts + Biellmann position (min. 3 counts). There are some other possible features like change of edge or acceleration within a single basic position that are sometimes seen too.

I hate most Biellmann spins. They're so inelegant.

But I think this thread is incomplete without a good discussion about how pitiful some of the illusion spin entries are, and how many poor ones we see.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I hate most Biellmann spins. They're so inelegant.

But I think this thread is incomplete without a good discussion about how pitiful some of the illusion spin entries are, and how many poor ones we see.

Ah yes, it's the new spin of the moment in the Russian Men's competition this season.

And it's making me wish for the A-Spin to return! Sure it was inelegant, but at least I never worried someone would hit their head!

 

[1111bm]

Nathan Chen did the same catchfoot upright to sit change (with leg staying straight) in an early version of his Mao's Last Dancer programme, which I thought was really elegant and fit the theme. However, he later switched the straight-leg sit to a tuck-behind version instead, I guess because preserving speed was a higher priority. Wish he could bring it back for exhibitions.

I know, this is the one I was talking about .

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Out of all the spinners, my favourites to watch were Patrick chan. They looked easy, graceful, fast, centred. His leg was high enough (not much higher), and it was extended and straight and neat.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

But I think this thread is incomplete without a good discussion about how pitiful some of the illusion spin entries are, and how many poor ones we see.

And it's making me wish for the A-Spin to return! Sure it was inelegant, but at least I never worried someone would hit their head!

Do we have any decent examples of illusion or A-spins? I think a nice one might be even rarer than a classical layback!

Roman Sadovsky and Jeff Buttle's A-spins are alright, they spin fast enough to look impressive instead of silly.
I can't remember any illusion spin that particularly wowed me so far.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Do we have any decent examples of illusion or A-spins? I think a nice one might be even rarer

Emanuel Sandhu's A-spins are pretty nice to look at: https://youtu.be/ZHMd0amJ4u4?t=277

I think it's because he goes from a sit-spin into it, most of the other ones I've seen performed the skater kinda bends down and grabs a leg.

A good illusion spin...I'm not sure I've seen one TBH...in general I don't find them very aesthetically pleasing because it really does look like with one wrong move the skater will whack themselves in the face!

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I hate most Biellmann spins. They're so inelegant.

But I think this thread is incomplete without a good discussion about how pitiful some of the illusion spin entries are, and how many poor ones we see.

Oh god, don't get me started. Some of the illusion spins we saw at the CoR events this season were atrocious. Most of the men just flailed their free leg around wildly, it looked quite scary, tbh.
On a positive note, I think Sasha's illusion spin is quite decent (e.g. here), though I would prefer if she did it for more than the required three revolutions, as it takes her at least one revolution to align her free leg with her upper body.

 

[1111bm]

Do we have any decent examples of illusion or A-spins? I think a nice one might be even rarer than a classical layback!

Roman Sadovsky and Jeff Buttle's A-spins are alright, they spin fast enough to look impressive instead of silly.

Again, I'd like to point to Elena Radionova:

Ðлена Радионова ÐÐ ÐÐ¸Ñ 2016 | Elena Radionova SP Worlds Boston (Eurosport 1 HD)

Eurosport 1 HD English commentsElena Radionova Short Program 2016 ISU World Figure Skating Championships in Boston (31.03.16)Ðлена Радионова ÐоÑоÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ð¿ÑогÑа...

www.youtube.com

I think this version looks really beautiful, she doesn't do the classic, silly looking 'Peekaboo!' position though, so she's kinda 'cheating' to make it look more elegant. There's two girls at my club who do it the same way as Elena here and I love the way it looks.

(it's also easier than putting your head totally upside down I guess, but since it's visually more pleasing I'm not complaining, and in terms of level requirements, a skater is gonna get that level either way)

ETA: Roman's looks great, not only becaus of the speed, but because he holds his free leg at a big angle. Actually that's one thing I hate in A-spins, when the legs are not apart far enough.
(and he looks to the side, not between his legs )

 

[jenaj]

Y-spin I think (mentioned in my previous post). Also, Alissa Czisny is quite well-known for it: https://youtu.be/E-XIncejFUg?t=53

I wouldn't call anyone who can do a Y-spin inflexible... But to stay true to the spirit of this thread, it's worth highlighting that even the famous spinners who happen to be very flexible (Alissa, Lucinda Ruh, Roman Sadovsky, Jason Brown and the like) aren't good spinners because they're flexible, but because they have really good basic spinning skills. Even when they're not hitting crazy positions (e.g. just watching a basic sit or camel) they look awesome due to speed, centring, and other purely spin technique-based features like acceleration and edge changes.

Y-spin or Martini spin. Michelle Kwan's was my favorite. https://youtu.be/VfluAux0Sf0?t=221

 

[Tonight's the Night]

Is what Anna does something like a variation on the A-spin? A "twisted A-spin"? (Are there other skaters who do this?) She tucks the free leg behind the skating leg rather than having it kicked out in front of the skating leg. There's the further effect of a twist in her upper body to accommodate the position. All in all a more elegant look, in my opinion.

Combination Spin - 2018-2019 Ladies

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youtu.be

(Older examples just because I was being lazy and used the same video from CKL above, but Anna is still doing this spin this season.)

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Is what Anna does something like a variation on the A-spin? A "twisted A-spin"? (Are there other skaters who do this?) She tucks the free leg behind the skating leg rather than having it kicked out in front of the skating leg. There's the further effect of a twist in her upper body to accommodate the position. All in all a more elegant look, in my opinion.

Combination Spin - 2018-2019 Ladies

誰ã®ã好ããã³ã¡ã³ãæ¬ã«ãé¡ããã¾ãï¼My Best 31 Alena Kostornaia2 Mai Mihara ä¸åèä¾3 Alina ZagitovaAlexandra TrusovaAnna ShcherbakovaEvgenia MedvedevaElizaveta TuktamyshevaRika ...

youtu.be

(Older examples just because I was being lazy and used the same video from CKL above, but Anna is still doing this spin this season.)

I'd say it's more like the straight-leg-tuck-behind intermediate position (varies between sit and upright height) that Yuzu, Javier, Jun Hwan, Roman etc. do sometimes. I think Zhenya Med did it too in the most recent RusNats gala. The men usually twist their bodies and reach one arm skywards.
Anna's is closer to sit height (like Bradie who does a sit with leg crossed behind), but she stays a bit higher and bends at the waist to grab her free foot which is probably why it has some A-spin characteristics.
I'm not sure what exactly these spins are called - like those Lambiel sit-like spins with jazz hands sticking out in weird directions, I guess they just fall within the vast catch-all 'nonbasic position' category.

 

[Tonight's the Night]

I'd say it's more like the straight-leg-tuck-behind intermediate position (varies between sit and upright height) that Yuzu, Javier, Jun Hwan, Roman etc. do sometimes. I think Zhenya Med did it too in the most recent RusNats gala. The men usually twist their bodies and reach one arm skywards.

Wait, hold on a second: there are also male figure skaters?

But yes, now going back through some more spin videos I have seen some men doing things like this position -- and women also. And I now see that there really is a kind of spectrum, ranging from more of a sitting position to more of a standing position. Which jibes with what you said about Bradie. I guess each skater probably thinks about what works best for her body and style.

I'm not sure what exactly these spins are called - like those Lambiel sit-like spins with jazz hands sticking out in weird directions, I guess they just fall within the vast catch-all 'nonbasic position' category.

Suspicious: there are names for all the spins that require a great deal of flexibility, but there aren't names for all the spins that don't require a great deal of flexibility. This is obviously a sign of the injustice directed against less-flexible spinners and we as figure skating fans should not tolerate this any longer. Let the era of the non-flexible spins commence!

 

[Penny]

I would like to say that love the idea that every skater should learn a good spin and be given hope for good spinning!

But flexibility is not dependent on one's natural physique, any more than any aspect of figure skating.

Exhibit A; Jason Brown's SP as a Novice Skater

Traveling spins, and even a butt spin. From Jason
Now I am not saying this to pick apart a novice skater who was obviously still learning his craft. But to say that flexibility can be learned, can be worked on, is a result of training and skill and hard work as much as revolutions in the air.

Baby Jason's charm, OTOH, was off the charts even then. Some things are natural

Flexibility can be improved with proper stretching exercises, but only to a certain point. The rest is genetics. I have extremely tight ligaments. I have taken ballet and exercise classes all my adult life and still cannot do splits. Good natural physique is an absolutely necessary starting point for a competitive skater. Good training and work ethic are equally important but cannot compensate for a non-athletic body (which most of us have).

 

[anonymoose_au]

Flexibility can be improved with proper stretching exercises, but only to a certain point.

This is sadly true. The last physio I saw said my flexibility was good...if I were an 80 year old arthritic man.

I can't even touch my toes!