Great spinners with less flexibility

[CrazyKittenLady]

This might not be 100% on topic, but I've long wanted to express my admiration for skaters who can get into the donut spin position without dropping their knee below the hip (e.g. demonstrated here by Alexander Samarin). IMO, it just looks infinitely more pleasing than dropping the knee and trying to grab your blade behind your head. It might be more of a question of core strength than flexibility, though.

 

[anonymoose_au]

This might not be 100% on topic, but I've long wanted to express my admiration for skaters who can get into the donut spin position without dropping their knee below the hip (e.g. demonstrated here by Alexander Samarin). IMO, it just looks infinitely more pleasing than dropping the knee and trying to grab your blade behind your head. It might be more of a question of core strength than flexibility, though.

Yes! It's so visually pleasing! Plushy could do it too so I used to think it was a matter of flexibility, but since that time I've seen a lot of ladies who drop their knee, even though they can do crazy Beillmann positions.

So...is it a matter of having long arms perhaps? Or is it just the way the spin is taught these days? Hmm mysteries!

 

[1111bm]

This might not be 100% on topic, but I've long wanted to express my admiration for skaters who can get into the donut spin position without dropping their knee below the hip (e.g. demonstrated here by Alexander Samarin). IMO, it just looks infinitely more pleasing than dropping the knee and trying to grab your blade behind your head. It might be more of a question of core strength than flexibility, though.

This! Biiiig pet peeve of mine, hate the knee drop! (not just in donut spins, any catchfoot position)
And I always wonder why only few skaters do it the more aesthetically pleasing way?

But even more important to me:
A straight skating leg in camel spins!

A skater can spin as fast and perfectly centured as possible, and have the most perfect position otherwise, but if their skating leg is bent it absolutely ruins the camel spin for me and makes it look totally wonky to me.

And again, I keep wondering why so many skaters don't seem to care for that/can't do it/sacrifice a straight skating leg to raise their free leg higher? I used to think it's about flexibility, but then I see so many female skaters with a bent leg, that show extreme flexibility otherwise, and not-so-flexible skaters with a straight leg respectively.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Great idea!
I have thought about it, and I see at least three sorts of flexibility : there is the most spectacular one, allowing 180° Biellmans etc; the turnout (nobody should consider ballet as a profession with less than 60° real hip turnout, the 30° missing for open positions can be compensated by knee and ankle turning, and 45° is a minimum for more casual ballet, I don't know which apply for spread eagle in skating as it is not that frequent, but clearly it is not for everybody); and the flexibility, the movement easiness and mastery, inside one's individual limits. I think the latter is very important in figure skating, while extreme individual limits shouldn't be required as long as the skater can do a proper camel etc.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

This! Biiiig pet peeve of mine, hate the knee drop! (not just in donut spins, any catchfoot position)
And I always wonder why only few skaters do it the more aesthetically pleasing way?

But even more important to me:
A straight skating leg in camel spins!

A skater can spin as fast and perfectly centured as possible, and have the most perfect position otherwise, but if their skating leg is bent it absolutely ruins the camel spin for me and makes it look totally wonky to me.

And again, I keep wondering why so many skaters don't seem to care for that/can't do it/sacrifice a straight skating leg to raise their free leg higher? I used to think it's about flexibility, but then I see so many female skaters with a bent leg, that show extreme flexibility otherwise, and not-so-flexible skaters with a straight leg respectively.

As for why some current skaters don't bother keeping their knee up for catchfoots, maybe it's because the system doesn't reward them for it? As long as they get from position A to B without losing speed that's all that matters, sadly.

With spins that have a deliberately bent leg, maybe it assists them in getting into a difficult position (e.g. balancing with a twisted upper body in a layover) or maintaining speed (weight closer to rotational axis)? The bent leg isn't a difficult position by itself, but I'm guessing it might help meet level requirements in this indirect manner. Not an expert on this though.
If the leg's just slightly bent and looks unintentional, maybe it's a muscular recruitment issue rather than flexibility - they could be lifting more with the hamstrings than glutes.

Apart from straight legs, I also appreciate pointed toes as far as a freeskate boot permits. These details, plus turnout, are essential ingredients for 'classic' camel/sit positions in my book.

 

[1111bm]

As for why some current skaters don't bother keeping their knee up for catchfoots, maybe it's because the system doesn't reward them for it? As long as they get from position A to B without losing speed that's all that matters, sadly.

In terms of scoring there might not be incentive, but personally I'm always surprised when skaters, who appear to generally care a lot for aesthetically pleasing spin positions and overall 'elegance' in their programs, don't bother (Satoko, Jason, Yuzuru... to name just a few, there's plenty). In many cases both, knee dropping and bent leg.

But also, there is a GOE reduction for "Poor/awkward, unaesthetic position(s) -1 to -3"...
and also this:
"If the free leg drops down for a long time while preparing for a difficult camel variation, the corresponding Level feature is still awarded, but the Judges will apply the GOE reduction for “poor/awkward/unaesthetic position(s)”.

So in theory skaters risk a reduction for not straightening their skating leg (I certainly would apply one if this was the case in a camel position) or in a case where they drop their knee and then struggle to grab the blade of their free leg and it takes longer than usual (which I've seen happen occasionally in competition).

Obviously in reality no judge is going to apply this to any of the high level elite skaters, because most of them have decent to amazing qualities and positions in their spins otherwise, so judges will overlook these 'flaws' when everything else in the spin is of good to high quality.

 

[labgoat]

I am not a scoring expert - are laybacks and biellmanns scored equal? They seem equally hard to do really well. I for one would rather have back a few Sasha Cohen like laybacks (or Sarah Hughes) instead of more Biellmanns.

 

[labgoat]

Yes! It's so visually pleasing! Plushy could do it too so I used to think it was a matter of flexibility, but since that time I've seen a lot of ladies who drop their knee, even though they can do crazy Beillmann positions.

So...is it a matter of having long arms perhaps? Or is it just the way the spin is taught these days? Hmm mysteries!

I think a longer spine and longer legs are more important than long arms. Shorter more compact skaters would have a difficult time executing this spin. Think Ito, Messing, Stojko, Wakaba. I don't even think my fave Paul Wylie could do this.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I think a longer spine and longer legs are more important than long arms. Shorter more compact skaters would have a difficult time executing this spin. Think Ito, Messing, Stojko, Wakaba. I don't even think my fave Paul Wylie could do this.

Good point. I just noticed in a photo once that Plushy seemed to have super long arms (although that might have just been my perception because I have short arms - going to the supermarket can be a pain!

I'm always intrigued by layover spins, how do you get into that position?! My hip joint dies just looking at it

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I am not a scoring expert - are laybacks and biellmanns scored equal? They seem equally hard to do really well. I for one would rather have back a few Sasha Cohen like laybacks (or Sarah Hughes) instead of more Biellmanns.

Depends on what type of layback? A Biellmann counts as an extra feature (difficult position). I'm no expert either - if I recall correctly any combination of 4 recognised 'features' gets you a Level 4 spin, which is the same base value regardless of which features are used.

For most ladies nowadays their level features for laybacks seem to be: illusion entry + 8 counts (in regular layback) + haircutter position (or sideways-leaning) for minimum 3 counts + Biellmann position (min. 3 counts). There are some other possible features like change of edge or acceleration within a single basic position that are sometimes seen too.

I guess a well-turned out free leg and nice basic layback position could be rewarded via GOE scoring, but mathematically (sadly) it seems to be more profitable to go for higher base value by adding on these extra features. Although I grew up with this scoring system, I'd say it needs reform when it comes to spins. Despite all the awesome examples we discussed in this thread, the majority of spins nowadays look predictably similar since people tend to use the same set of features to get Level 4s. It's like cooking with salt and pepper all the time - would be nice to see more sriracha and mustard too.

 

[labgoat]

Depends on what type of layback? A Biellmann counts as an extra feature (difficult position). I'm no expert either - if I recall correctly any combination of 4 recognised 'features' gets you a Level 4 spin, which is the same base value regardless of which features are used.

For most ladies nowadays their level features for laybacks seem to be: illusion entry + 8 counts (in regular layback) + haircutter position (or sideways-leaning) for minimum 3 counts + Biellmann position (min. 3 counts). There are some other possible features like change of edge or acceleration within a single basic position that are sometimes seen too.

I guess a well-turned out free leg and nice basic layback position could be rewarded via GOE scoring, but mathematically (sadly) it seems to be more profitable to go for higher base value by adding on these extra features. Although I grew up with this scoring system, I'd say it needs reform when it comes to spins. Despite all the awesome examples we discussed in this thread, the majority of spins nowadays look predictably similar since people tend to use the same set of features to get Level 4s. It's like cooking with salt and pepper all the time - would be nice to see more sriracha and mustard too.

Exactly - we need a variety of ways to get similar point values or it all tastes the same

 

[HKSZYU]

Roman Sadovsky? I dont know if you consider him flexible but his spins are very good

Roman probably has the most beautiful camel spin I've seen. It's just perfect.

 

[Tonight's the Night]

This! Biiiig pet peeve of mine, hate the knee drop! (not just in donut spins, any catchfoot position)
And I always wonder why only few skaters do it the more aesthetically pleasing way?

But even more important to me:
A straight skating leg in camel spins!

A skater can spin as fast and perfectly centured as possible, and have the most perfect position otherwise, but if their skating leg is bent it absolutely ruins the camel spin for me and makes it look totally wonky to me.

And again, I keep wondering why so many skaters don't seem to care for that/can't do it/sacrifice a straight skating leg to raise their free leg higher? I used to think it's about flexibility, but then I see so many female skaters with a bent leg, that show extreme flexibility otherwise, and not-so-flexible skaters with a straight leg respectively.

I was watching some old Lucinda Ruh videos and saw the perfect spin for you: she starts with the straight skating leg in her camel -- and then bends it! Just to let us know she is capable of both I guess. (Or maybe she's just messing with a particular golden skate user... 22 years ago.)

https://youtu.be/v_Ikxi6Zx4A?t=89

(Hopefully the link goes to the right time: 01:29)

 

[draqq]

For most ladies nowadays their level features for laybacks seem to be: illusion entry + 8 counts (in regular layback) + haircutter position (or sideways-leaning) for minimum 3 counts + Biellmann position (min. 3 counts). There are some other possible features like change of edge or acceleration within a single basic position that are sometimes seen too.

Agreed! All of the layback spins look too similar and predictable. I'm in favor of Choreographic Layback Spin myself, getting rid of all the features and just allowing the skater to perform an elegant, sustained layback. If they want to add stuff like a Bielmann or a haircutter, sure, but they don't have to. Sometimes a fast layback with the back parallel to the ice and a free leg in attitude position is perfect as it is.

 

[macy]

wasn't it Akiko Suzuki who did the change edge catch foot? i remember she was the first one i saw do it, and was like woah! way to make up for not doing a beillmann and it's a crazy hard feature.

i've always thought Wakaba was a great spinner although not as flexible as others. she doesn't do a biellmann but has a nice fast layback otherwise.

 

[1111bm]

I was watching some old Lucinda Ruh videos and saw the perfect spin for you: she starts with the straight skating leg in her camel -- and then bends it! Just to let us know she is capable of both I guess. (Or maybe she's just messing with a particular golden skate user... 22 years ago.)

https://youtu.be/v_Ikxi6Zx4A?t=89

(Hopefully the link goes to the right time: 01:29)

Haha, yeah I know that variation, nowadays it gets counted as an intermediate position I believe.
Didn't know Lucinda's version though, but I've seen f.i. Elena Radionova do it in her programs (who btw is an excellent example of a skater with a beautiful straight skating leg in her camel spins):

Elena Radionova - Free skating - 2016 European Figure Skating Championships

Elena Radionova - Silver medal - Free program - 2016 European Figure Skating Championships - Bratislava SlovakiaLadies ResultsRank Name Na...

www.youtube.com

 

[Tonight's the Night]

Haha, yeah I know that variation, nowadays it gets counted as an intermediate position I believe.
Didn't know Lucinda's version though, but I've seen f.i. Elena Radionova do it in her programs (who btw is an excellent example of a skater with a beautiful straight skating leg in her camel spins):

Elena Radionova - Free skating - 2016 European Figure Skating Championships

Elena Radionova - Silver medal - Free program - 2016 European Figure Skating Championships - Bratislava SlovakiaLadies ResultsRank Name Na...

www.youtube.com

Hmm, I couldn't watch that link (blocked in the States) but I think I found another video that's the same thing: 2016 Euros, LP. Is it her spin just about a minute and ten seconds into the program? She bends the skating leg there, but she has already caught the free leg, right? Well, anyhow, same effect. (Pardon me if I'm missing something -- still just about a year into my figure skating obsession.) Btw I love the quick gesture to the head with the spread fingers before switching the spin to the other foot.

 

[Lamente Ariane]

This! Biiiig pet peeve of mine, hate the knee drop! (not just in donut spins, any catchfoot position)
And I always wonder why only few skaters do it the more aesthetically pleasing way?

But even more important to me:
A straight skating leg in camel spins!

A skater can spin as fast and perfectly centured as possible, and have the most perfect position otherwise, but if their skating leg is bent it absolutely ruins the camel spin for me and makes it look totally wonky to me.

And again, I keep wondering why so many skaters don't seem to care for that/can't do it/sacrifice a straight skating leg to raise their free leg higher? I used to think it's about flexibility, but then I see so many female skaters with a bent leg, that show extreme flexibility otherwise, and not-so-flexible skaters with a straight leg respectively.

My mother has been complaining about the knee drop or “dippy doo” as she calls it for ages! She finds it incredibly disruptive and doesn’t believe me when I tell her the judges don’t! She also hates I-spins because she thinks they’re ugly unless done the way Kamila Valieva and Mariah Bell do them.

 

[Tonight's the Night]

My mother has been complaining about the knee drop or “dippy doo” as she calls it for ages! She finds it incredibly disruptive and doesn’t believe me when I tell her the judges don’t! She also hates I-spins because she thinks they’re ugly unless done the way Kamila Valieva and Mariah Bell do them.

Yes, there is that moment with most skaters, usually for a revolution or two, when they kind of lean back as if they are about to heave a big bag of wheat over their heads -- totally understandable, given what is about to happen, and something I could never do. But somehow when Kamila does an I-spin there's just none of that at all. As if she says: "OK, I'm going to put my foot above my head now." I don't quite understand what makes her so different in this regard.

 

[1111bm]

Hmm, I couldn't watch that link (blocked in the States) but I think I found another video that's the same thing: 2016 Euros, LP. Is it her spin just about a minute and ten seconds into the program? She bends the skating leg there, but she has already caught the free leg, right? Well, anyhow, same effect. (Pardon me if I'm missing something -- still just about a year into my figure skating obsession.) Btw I love the quick gesture to the head with the spread fingers before switching the spin to the other foot.

Oh it's blocked? Ha, that's a first, usually it's the other way round (for me). Yeah it's that camel spin and yeah you're right, Lucinda doesn't grab her blade, but the general idea is the same.