Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

[iloveaxel]

This is the most corrupt discipline

There is no doubt Russians have already booked OGM for this one. There is a recent interview of Russian Federation chairman Valentin Pissiev on FSU which reveals some very telling tidbits, I can't link the the whole interview, but here is the money quote.

I think there is some positive moments. I realized that Domnina and Shabalin should've made progress but I didn't know how fast. Two days ago I talked to ISU President Ottavio Chiquanta and he said, "Valentin, Domnina and Shabalin is your future." They really could've defeated the Canadian team in GPF. Our rivals are Denkova and Staviski.

So basically Ottavio Chiquanta and Valentin Pissiev seem to have some sort of backroom deal on this pair, disgusting! This discipline should be completely banished from figure skating.

 

[attyfan]

Just out of curiosity -- (I'm not knowledgeable at all about ice dance) -- to what extent is the DomShabs higher placements due to their own skating and to what extent is it due to such things as B/A having a (reportedly) less-than brilliant free dance? Why couldn't the DomShabs have improved a great deal in one year? Tara Lipinski was 15th at Worlds in '96 -- in '97, she was first. At the time, her rise was explained by hard work, determination -- and some errors on the part of her competitors. If she were Russian, would it be explained by "politiks"?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Was that snippet written in English, Italian, or Russian?

If it was English then the whole suspicion of Ottavio being in cahoots with Piseev
is summed up in the word OUR

Joe

 

[Mathman]

The "our" is not part of the quote from Cinquanta. If the article is accurately rendered, "our" means Pizeev and the interviewer, or Pizeev and the Russian Federation.

Cinquanta says, "your," meaning Pizeev's.

 

[iloveaxel]

The next three years

The next three years will be very interesting. Both Canada and U.S. have vested interest in this discipline, I am wondering whether 2010 will be more dramatic than 2002?

 

[Penny]

What an interesting thread. Thank you all for your comments. I will certainly pay more attention to Dom/Shabs in the future.

 

[blue dog]

I hope this pushes the sport in a positive way--they become almost unbeatable, so the teams below them will start using moves that we've never seen (kinda like how Krylova and Ovsiannikov began experimenting with styles after they just couldn't beat Pasha and Platov)/.

Then again, we could see petitions (like we saw in 2002), which ended up spelling the end for the Israelis (after that world bronze, the judges just seemed to be afraid to give them high marks).

 

[La Rhumba]

What would the Kerrs have to do in terms of improvements to really start pushing towards being podium contenders? The move to Platov seems like a good start - training in the US where there is more visibility for them (compared to Murrayfield and Deeside!). Getting a good renowned Russian coach to mould them into the style of the Russians may help their placements on the world stage. Politically probably a good move to have a Russian coach too? Any thoughts?

Ant

As a Fan, I personally hope they retain their individuality, and unique style and excitement. I wouldn't like to see them become a generic icedance couple, like so many others. Their selling point is that they are different, and apart from improvements in technique, I hope to see their innovation and quirky music choices and moves continue. Unlike most other international couples, they are in the British tradition of choregraphing many of their routines themselves. What we need in icedance is originality, and I'd like to see the Kerr's continue to provide it.

 

[La Rhumba]

2. I also do feel that the Russian Federation is partly responsible for their great results this year. Because otherwise, I can't account for them moving ahead of both Delobel/Schoenfelder *and* Belbin/Agosto. That's a big jump in the world of ice dance, and I feel like there's got to be some kind of political aspect to it. Not only that, but the second Russian team, Khoklova/Novitski, are also now getting placed more highly than before, for reasons that are unclear to me. It all points to some back-door deals.

Who can account for B&A's move ahead of Del&Scho over the past few years?
That's a very great mystery to me, and to alot of people.

As for K&N, well who have they beaten so far this season? G&P, who they were close to at Worlds last year.
I find this couple's routines this season rather strange, with mostly acrobatic, gymnastic moves by her, with him hanging on, and not much actual dancing between them. Their Tango OD is not a Tango. I shall reserve judgement as to whether any couple's elevation is unwarranted when I see most of the couples skate on TV in Warsaw, and make a direct comparison. Then I'll be ready to question it if it all looks suspicious.

There's no doubt that DomShabs have alot of ability and have been a lovely couple to watch in the past, [though with some rubbish music and FD choreo over the past two years] but even D&L said they were *held back* by B&K being the Official Canadian No.1s, and couldn't make a move till they retired. BTW have they said they will quit after this year? Surely they will continue till Vancouver 2010? They have clearly overtaken B&A , and IMO should've won Worlds last year.

 

[La Rhumba]

2010 in Canada and V/M not vying for the podium? Ooooh...those Canadian dance fans will NOT be happy.

Well if they do win, they'll be the first couple to win Gold at their 4th attempt since T&D won Worlds in 81, assuming V&M make the Canadian team this season, and continue competing every year with no mishaps.

 

[rain]

I hope this pushes the sport in a positive way--they become almost unbeatable, so the teams below them will start using moves that we've never seen (kinda like how Krylova and Ovsiannikov began experimenting with styles after they just couldn't beat Pasha and Platov)/.

Then again, we could see petitions (like we saw in 2002), which ended up spelling the end for the Israelis (after that world bronze, the judges just seemed to be afraid to give them high marks).

One team becoming unbeatable is never positive for the sport. Gritschuk and Platov almost made me stop watching this discipline, it was so frustrating to watch this couple undeservedly held up no matter how they skated from competition to competition, falls and all (I personally thought Krylova and Ovsiannikov were a better team much of the time, not to mention the rest of the world.) Ditto the frustration with Navka/Kostamorov.

I didn't see that the domination of either couple particularly promoted individuality or innovation in other skaters.

 

[La Rhumba]

Here are the hard facts (event, final placement, CD OD FD team)


2006 Worlds
7, 7 6 7 DomShabs
10, 12 11 9 Kerrs


2004 Worlds
10, 6 10 10 DomShabs
12, 8 14 14 Kerrs

chuck, you are really confusing me with your stats. The Kerr's were 11th at 2006 Worlds, as I posted earlier, and as for 2004 Worlds, they were not 8th in the CD.

 

[La Rhumba]

Sadly, their rise is the result largely of being pushed up the standings because they are now the top Russian couple. They have improved some, and are a decent team, but not to the extent, IMO that they should be suddenly beating teams they were not in the same league with last year.

Well I watched the videos of the CoC Rhumba CD, and D&S were quite rightly placed ahead of B&A, it was a clear victory as their dance was technically much better. As far as the CDs go, D&S have been underscored compared to the previous top teams IMO.

We all know how important the post Olympic season is in Dance, and sadly for B&A, they were otherwise occupied. Everyone else is making a move, whether warranted or not, and it was in their hands to keep their noses in front.

I would remind everyone, including the poster who declared that the cold war was being played out in Skating competitions going back to the 70s and before, that T&D rose from 5th at Lake Placid Olympics in 1980, and 4th at Worlds, to 1st at Euros and Worlds 1981, overtaking all the Russian couples, like Linichuk & Karponosov [1980 Oly Gold] the only couple to have retired were the Hungarians Rogoeczy&Sallay [WC Gold 1980].
What I'm saying is that even with all the so called Russian Conspiracies etc etc, when a brilliant couple comes along in Dance, are they prevented from winning?

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Well take a look at Navka and Kostomarov at the 2002 Olympics where the finished 9th or 10th now look where they are now

 

[La Rhumba]

Well take a look at Navka and Kostomarov at the 2002 Olympics where the finished 9th or 10th now look where they are now

Yeah, and they were the only ones of the top couples who didn't actually make a mistake in Torino.

They didn't thrill me there, and never did, but I'm prepared to give credit where it's due.

BTW Chris Dean was a very big fan of their M.Jackson FD in 2002, and Jayne Torvill praised them as being worthy champions when I, and many others, were shouting that Den/Stav should've won Gold in 2003, so I bow to their superior knowledge.

 

[rain]

I would remind everyone, including the poster who declared that the cold war was being played out in Skating competitions going back to the 70s and before, that T&D rose from 5th at Lake Placid Olympics in 1980, and 4th at Worlds, to 1st at Euros and Worlds 1981, overtaking all the Russian couples, like Linichuk & Karponosov [1980 Oly Gold] the only couple to have retired were the Hungarians Rogoeczy&Sallay [WC Gold 1980].
What I'm saying is that even with all the so called Russian Conspiracies etc etc, when a brilliant couple comes along in Dance, are they prevented from winning?

I'm not the one who wrote the comment about the cold war, however I would like to say in response to the above that the point for me is that Dom/Shab are not a brilliant, blow-them-away couple, nor are their dances this season anything to write home about. If they actually had a kick-*** freedance that made me say, wow, Dom/Shab, where have they been that would be a different kettle of fish.

 

[chuckm]

ITA rain. DonShabs' OD is just OK, and their FD is frantic and sloppy. I understand that B/A have a horrid FD this year, and can understand DomShabs being placed ahead of them in that segment. But B/A's tango is terrific, and IMO, DomShabs being so close behind them in the OD makes no sense at all.

 

[temperboy28]

If the judges have a team or skater they want to come ahead in the end, and the team or skater either has as a strength or an advantage over their opponent in the final segement of the event(in ice dancing the free dance)they will always keep that person right with, or atleast in easy striking distance of their opponent to set them up to move ahead in the end. That is probably why the Russians are so close to teams that might be better then them by significant amount in the original dance, the judges want them to come out ahead, recognize that the free dance is where they can beat some of these teams, so keeps them within striking distance after the original dance segment to do that.

 

[chuckm]

chuck, you are really confusing me with your stats. The Kerr's were 11th at 2006 Worlds, as I posted earlier, and as for 2004 Worlds, they were not 8th in the CD.

You are right about 2006. Sorry, that was a typo on my part.
About 2004: The Kerrs were 8th in the CD, but they finished 14th overall, not 10th.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2004/cat004rs.htm

 

[chuckm]

If the judges have a team or skater they want to come ahead in the end, and the team or skater either has as a strength or an advantage over their opponent in the final segement of the event(in ice dancing the free dance)they will always keep that person right with, or atleast in easy striking distance of their opponent to set them up to move ahead in the end. That is probably why the Russians are so close to teams that might be better then them by significant amount in the original dance, the judges want them to come out ahead, recognize that the free dance is where they can beat some of these teams, so keeps them within striking distance after the original dance segment to do that.

Exactly. That is why over the years, you can notice that DomShabs' placements in each segment lie very close to their overall placement, as if the judges had slotted them for that place, and made sure they ended up there.


I believe that DomShabs were intended to be the gold medalists at Cup of Russia. They were first after the CD, but then Maxim Shabalin had a disastrous fall in the OD and they fell to 3rd. That is why DelShoes had to take such a huge hit in the FD for their mistake when Olivier put his foot down for one second during a twizzle. DelShoes had to finish 3rd in the FD in order for DomShabs to finish at least second overall. DomShabs won the FD, but couldn't make up for the 6-point drop in the OD.

I truly believe that had Maxim not fallen in the OD, DomShabs would have beaten B/A in the OD (they beat them at CoC by 0.48), and they would have finished 1st in all the segments and won the gold medal.

It is the defeat of B/A in the OD at CoC that makes no sense to me. I concede that DomShabs' FD is marginally better than B/A's, but their OD is not better.