Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

[temperboy28]

Exactly. That is why over the years, you can notice that DomShabs' placements in each segment lie very close to their overall placement, as if the judges had slotted them for that place, and made sure they ended up there.


I believe that DomShabs were intended to be the gold medalists at Cup of Russia. They were first after the CD, but then Maxim Shabalin had a disastrous fall in the OD and they fell to 3rd. That is why DelShoes had to take such a huge hit in the FD for their mistake when Olivier put his foot down for one second during a twizzle. DelShoes had to finish 3rd in the FD in order for DomShabs to finish at least second overall. DomShabs won the FD, but couldn't make up for the 6-point drop in the OD.

I truly believe that had Maxim not fallen in the OD, DomShabs would have beaten B/A in the OD (they beat them at CoC by 0.48), and they would have finished 1st in all the segments and won the gold medal.

It is the defeat of B/A in the OD at CoC that makes no sense to me. I concede that DomShabs' FD is marginally better than B/A's, but their OD is not better.

I agree, I have always liked Belbin/Agosto more then the young Russian team you are referring to. Belbin/Agosto's free dance this year is kind of yuck so I can see them losing in that dance but the original dance makes no sense . The compulsories they never show so hard to say but they are not worth many points anyway in the big scheme.

So it probably has to do with the judges plan of what they want to do with the young Russians who are not the top team for the country with Navka/Kostomarov gone.

 

[Lanie]

And when you take into account how the Kerrs were horribly undermarked last season, especially at Euros, Worlds and Olympics... it wouldn't surprise me they are being held down because they're British and the Russian teams are being held up because they are Russians. It's ice dance, folks, the conspiracies continue!! (Of course this is also my highly biased opinion!

 

[antmanb]

Dom Shabs were severely undermarked at the Olympics and Worlds compared to lower teams. There's no need to get pi$$ed because this team is finally getting its due.

I don't think anyone was getting "p$$sed"! It was just a genuine question from me because i don't really watch much dance and don't have the same kind of knowledge about dance as i do in the other events. That and huge national bias for the Kerrs!

And i was suspicious about the russian politicking since it has gone on in ice dance since the dawn of time!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

As a Fan, I personally hope they retain their individuality, and unique style and excitement. I wouldn't like to see them become a generic icedance couple, like so many others. Their selling point is that they are different, and apart from improvements in technique, I hope to see their innovation and quirky music choices and moves continue. Unlike most other international couples, they are in the British tradition of choregraphing many of their routines themselves. What we need in icedance is originality, and I'd like to see the Kerr's continue to provide it.

I agree with you completely :agree: I would hate to see the Kerrs becoming angst ridden russian ice dancers :shudder:

BUt then i know that they really would like to break the podium and start being referred to as medal contenders at the Championships too.

Its a hard one really. Platov really does seem like a very good technical coach and i'm sure that he will do great things with the Kerrs as long as they are allowed to retain their individuality. They certainly are beginning to look more polished every season and i can only hope that Platov really finished them off beautifully. They have such good presnetation skills and great audience connection - that much has always been clear but was made abundantly clear at the Steven Cousins NIC show.

Ant

 

[JonnyCoop]

One team becoming unbeatable is never positive for the sport. Gritschuk and Platov almost made me stop watching this discipline, it was so frustrating to watch this couple undeservedly held up no matter how they skated from competition to competition, falls and all (I personally thought Krylova and Ovsiannikov were a better team much of the time, not to mention the rest of the world.) Ditto the frustration with Navka/Kostamorov.

ITA with this, except for the last sentence. I will always think there was something "fishier than usual" about the whole Gritshuk/Platov domination. And I wouldn't necessarily call it a "Russian conspiracy" either, because one of the teams who suffered under this was Krylova/Ovsiannakov, who, IMHO as well, were often the better team; they were certainly less prone to technical mistakes.

re. Navka/Kostamorov, however -- I at least give THEM credit for getting better every season, which I don't think G/P ever really did, and I certainly don't see much improvement in Domnina/Shabalin from last season, at least not based on what I've seen so far. I first saw them (N/K) at the 01 Worlds where they performed a FD so rudimentary and basic I could have gone out there with my cousin's cat and performed something infinitely more interesting (and I haven't been on the ice since 1979); they were 12th in the FD (and overall) over at least 5 couples who were considerably, noticeably better. However, the following season I did enjoy their Michael Jackson FD (even more so than Bourne & Kraatz's, truth be told) and enjoyed all the FD's they had since. I do think that it should have been a closer call between them and Denkova/Stavyiysky, however, in most cases. (And Den/Stav should always have been placed ahead of BelAgosto and GrushGonch.)

 

[LizzieBeth]

One team becoming unbeatable is never positive for the sport. Gritschuk and Platov almost made me stop watching this discipline, it was so frustrating to watch this couple undeservedly held up no matter how they skated from competition to competition, falls and all (I personally thought Krylova and Ovsiannikov were a better team much of the time, not to mention the rest of the world.) Ditto the frustration with Navka/Kostamorov

It was very frustrating to watch G/P win everything for years. Didn't they miss an entire season one year due to injuries and then show up and win Worlds (I'm sorry I can't remember the year). At least N/K improved every year and I must admit that they had charisma in spades and I looked forward to watching them. Domshabs have not shown me any charisma yet and I want them to. They just don't have World Champion status for me yet.

 

[diver chick]

I have to say I am not a massive fan of Dom/Shabs but I think it is because they look sloppy even though they are very good technically. I don't like the arms, hair and trailing ribbon costume flying everywhere look as I find it totally off putting, I'd love to see her skate with her hair tied back and wearing a jumpsuit because I think then I would appreciate more easily the flailing arms in relation to the whole program. I don't like messy lines in skating and I think shredded costumes and loose hair contribute to this.

 

[gkelly]

Well if they do win, they'll be the first couple to win Gold at their 4th attempt since T&D won Worlds in 81, assuming V&M make the Canadian team this season, and continue competing every year with no mishaps.

Huh? You mean if Virtue/Moir go to Worlds for the first time in 2007 and every subsequent year afterward, and win their (first) world title in 2010, they will achieve this distinction?

I think the post you were quoting referred to the Olympics, which would be their first try, not Worlds.

What kind of statistic is "first couple to win Gold at their 4th attempt" anyway?

Krylova/Ovsiannikov first won in their 4th Worlds together, although she had been twice before with another partner (won bronze the first time and withdrew the second)

Similarly, Navka/Kostamarov first won in their 4th Worlds together, although she had been many times before with other partners and he had competed with another partner during the year of her maternity leave.

Quite a few teams won at their 2nd or 3rd Worlds during the 50s-70s, and occasionally 1st but all with extenuating circumstances (first time ice dance was competed at Worlds; reigning world champ won again with a new partner; first Worlds held after the cancellation in 1961).

 

[La Rhumba]

You are right about 2006. Sorry, that was a typo on my part.
About 2004: The Kerrs were 8th in the CD, but they finished 14th overall, not 10th.

http://www.isufs.org/results/wc2004/cat004rs.htm

Ah, I see now, 2 groups for the CD, sorry.

 

[La Rhumba]

Huh? You mean if Virtue/Moir go to Worlds for the first time in 2007 and every subsequent year afterward, and win their (first) world title in 2010, they will achieve this distinction?

I think the post you were quoting referred to the Olympics, which would be their first try, not Worlds.

What kind of statistic is "first couple to win Gold at their 4th attempt" anyway?

.

I was responding to a Canadian poster who fretted whether they would be on the podium in Vancouver. I made a comparison between V&M and T&D, so if V&M did make the podium and win at Vancouver 2010, it will be only their 4th season competing at world level, in that partnership, the only previous couple to have reached the podium and won at World level after 4 years were T&D - that's the comparsion I was making.....Worlds, Olympics...whatever.

 

[La Rhumba]

It was very frustrating to watch G/P win everything for years. Didn't they miss an entire season one year due to injuries and then show up and win Worlds (I'm sorry I can't remember the year). .

1995

At least N/K improved every year and I must admit that they had charisma in spades and I looked forward to watching them. Domshabs have not shown me any charisma yet and I want them to. They just don't have World Champion status for me yet

I sincerely doubt they will be WC this season. Den/Stav & D&L will be battling for Gold, and depending who has least errors, I would say DenStav are in the box seat for sure.
My only regret is that once again DelSchoes are being overlooked.

Previously a poster said that the CDs mattered little, and that they aren't shown in America, however, this is definitely one area where Dom & Shab have been undermarked in the past as the 2nd Russians, and is an example of their very good technique.

 

[La Rhumba]

I first saw them (N/K) at the 01 Worlds where they performed a FD so rudimentary and basic I could have gone out there with my cousin's cat and performed something infinitely more interesting (and I haven't been on the ice since 1979); they were 12th in the FD (and overall) over at least 5 couples who were considerably, noticeably better.

Cheers for the great humour!

 

[gkelly]

the only previous couple to have reached the podium and won at World level after 4 years were T&D

You mean most recent. As I mentioned in my previous post, there were plenty of couples (many of them British, BTW) who won in less time before them.

 

[La Rhumba]

Sorry, I don't go back that far! Yes, since T&D. [That's when I became a fan of icedance, so my knowledge is secure from then on]. Funnily enough I wondered if B&A might be the first couple to achieve that feat since T&D, but they haven't really improved much in the last few seasons, and personally I haven't enjoyed their FDs for a while. I agree with the poster who said you wouldn't want to rewind and watch any of the Torino podium FDs......hwell:

 

[rain]

Funnily enough I wondered if B&A might be the first couple to achieve that feat since T&D, but they haven't really improved much in the last few seasons, and personally I haven't enjoyed their FDs for a while. I agree with the poster who said you wouldn't want to rewind and watch any of the Torino podium FDs......hwell:

Totally agree re: Torino. The only program I was interested in seeing was D/L's, and they had to pull out because of the terrible fall in the OD. I really wish Navka/Kostomorov had at least tried to create a signature piece rather than dusting off the most overused theme and music in the history of skating.

As for B/A, the last FD that I enjoyed from them was the gypsy one from a couple of seasons ago. That was the one that really made me like this team. The Elvis one may have been fun, but it wasn't exactly sophisticated and just made them look really young. I don't think anyone should ever do 4 1/2 minutes of tango — it's too much — and they didn't pull it off last year. This season's dance isn't as bad, IMO, as a lot of people make it out to be, but it's not anything special either. It looks too dusty, for want of a better term. They haven't done anything new or innovative with the theme or the music, and yet it doesn't score on a sentimental or nostalgic note either, so it just looks kind of aged, and not like a fine wine.
Is it so much worse than Dom/Shab's? Not at all, IMO. Very much on par.

 

[La Rhumba]

What do you think of the technical content of each dance? I think that's where B&A have lost out, there's not enough in their program, and as you say, the presentation doesn't have the glamour factor of Hollywood enough. I also think on a direct comparison of CD quality that B&A would lose out to DenStav, D&L, DomShab and DelSchoes. I know they overcame this at Torino on the strength of their OD, but I think at Worlds if all the other couples skate clean, they may struggle to make the podium this year.

ETA: I also wanted to mention another aspect to consider is the merits of each program when seen live.
I kind of feel unable to comment properly because all I've seen so far are computer downloads, but getting back on topic, ofcourse one of the reasons I don't want to believe that a Russian Conspiracy exists is because I love the sport, and what would be the point of following it so avidly if results were all predetermined?
Plus, I still believe that when a couple with no politics, like T&D, come along, they will get to the top if they are talented enough. Any Russian politics that existed at the time [and I don't doubt that some of it did go on behind the scenes] couldn't prevent them from winning for 4 years. Another point is that I often heard that Lang & Tchernychev were "a top 5 couple" from American fans, and were prevented from moving up because of politics, but when B&A replaced them as US Champs, their rise was meteoric [in Dance terms]. Likewise, for ages, a British couple could not break that elusive top 10, and I would fume, believe me, but then along come the Kerrs and in their first Euros, they made 10th! [deservedly], so what I'm saying is that I'm prepared to believe that some politics is involved - undoubtedly - but I don't believe it's as cut and dried as chuck would make out, or else we all may aswell pack our bags and go home!

 

[Wolfgang]

Well, you know, at the end of the day I really don't care if they win the next 15 Gold Medals because of politics or not, one thing's for sure, Gazpazha Domnina sure is easy on the eyes , so seeing them on podiums all over the place won't hurt me none.....

 

[La Rhumba]

LOL! Wolfgang, did you know that a few years ago Oksana was told in no uncertain terms by the Russian Fed to smarten up and get glamorous, and start using peroxide, as she was considered too dowdy to be a Russian Dance Diva!

 

[blue dog]

LOL! Wolfgang, did you know that a few years ago Oksana was told in no uncertain terms by the Russian Fed to smarten up and get glamorous, and start using peroxide, as she was considered too dowdy to be a Russian Dance Diva!

NExt will she change her name to Pasha, too?

 

[antmanb]

ETA: I also wanted to mention another aspect to consider is the merits of each program when seen live.
I kind of feel unable to comment properly because all I've seen so far are computer downloads, but getting back on topic, ofcourse one of the reasons I don't want to believe that a Russian Conspiracy exists is because I love the sport, and what would be the point of following it so avidly if results were all predetermined?
Plus, I still believe that when a couple with no politics, like T&D, come along, they will get to the top if they are talented enough. Any Russian politics that existed at the time [and I don't doubt that some of it did go on behind the scenes] couldn't prevent them from winning for 4 years. Another point is that I often heard that Lang & Tchernychev were "a top 5 couple" from American fans, and were prevented from moving up because of politics, but when B&A replaced them as US Champs, their rise was meteoric [in Dance terms]. Likewise, for ages, a British couple could not break that elusive top 10, and I would fume, believe me, but then along come the Kerrs and in their first Euros, they made 10th! [deservedly], so what I'm saying is that I'm prepared to believe that some politics is involved - undoubtedly - but I don't believe it's as cut and dried as chuck would make out, or else we all may aswell pack our bags and go home!

The only thing that i struggle with is - what would have happened if Torvill and Dean were a notch or two lower in talent than they were? SO much so that they were still the best but not by as much as they actually were. Would they still have won all those titles? I guess what i'm saynig is that they were undeniably better than the rest (many people say they 're the best in history). Is it only because there was no choice but to put them first? That's a tall order if you are very good, the best in fact, but not by so much that a bit of judge manipulation leaves you with the silver to a russian couple? I think that if there had been any chance a tll to put a russian couple over T&D at the time it would have happened. Have you seen the John Curry documentary where there is a discussion of one of the judges (was it the czechoslovakian judge?) saying to the judge next to him that he gave his first place marks to Curry so the judge he was talking to would likely never see him judging at that level again?

I think those sorts of deals and federation pressuer still go on now.

Ant