Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

[La Rhumba]

Of course, being the #1 Russian team carries a lot more weight than being the #1 Canadian team or the #1 French team or the #1 US team......

Going by the past list of Champions - yes!

Just as being the #1 US Ladies Competitor or #1 ranked US Man does too. That's obvious!

[Ofcourse US Singles skaters have never been overscored have they?.... Noooo......]

 

[slutskayafan21]

I got the impression that D/L were disappointed with their silver medal last year. Really, that's why they are still skating this year--they want the World Championship they believe they deserve, and the OGM in 2010 as well.

I do not feel that they are on the same level as Den/Sta, DelShoes and B/A. They still struggle with footwork and twizzles, and they do not have the speed of the other top teams. They stumbled in both of their last two FDs but do not seem to be penalized as harshly as the other teams.

I think that D/L are doomed to be disappointed once again. They will likely be passed by Den/Sta at Worlds, and by DomShabs as well. DomShabs beat them in the FD at the GPF, and were just 0.20 behind them overall. DomShabs have scored higher with each performance (in at least one segment of the competition) and seem destined to improve again at Worlds.

I dont agree on DomShabs likely beating Dubreuil/Lauzon at Worlds this year. The last 2 events for DomShabs were in Russia, and you have astutely pointed out many times the effect home country support has on your scores. With that in mind it is not surprising their scores improved with each event, but Worlds are not in Russia so may be more of a challenge for them then other teams to build on scores they achieved in their home country. Dubreuil/Lauzon lost a point with a lift that went too long, and also had a mistake in the final twizzle sequence, and still managed to beat the Russians out overall, despite narrowly being behind them in the free dance. After the GP final Dubreil/Lauzon look like underdogs to the Bulgarians but favorites over the Russians to me. The French look like the odd team out but they improve as the season goes so might still be hope. Belbin/Agosto are still a wild card at this point, they look to be on the outside now but there is also time for that to change.

Still I dont see DomShabs over Dubreil/Lauzon based on the GP final showing, all things considered, at all.

 

[chuckm]

Going by the past list of Champions - yes!

Just as being the #1 US Ladies Competitor or #1 ranked US Man does too. That's obvious!

[Ofcourse US Singles skaters have never been overscored have they?.... Noooo......]

The last US Men's Olympic champion was Brian Boitano in 1988. After that were Petrenko (CIS), Urmanov (RUS), Kulik (RUS), Yagudin (RUS) and Plushenko (RUS). The last US World Champion was Todd Eldredge (1996). Since 1992, there were Browning and Stojko (CAN), Yagudin and Plushenko (RUS), and Lambiel (SUI). Doesn't look as if being #1 US man is much of a big deal.

The US ladies have done better. Olympic champions in '92, '98 and '02 were from the US, and Yamaguchi, Lipinski and Kwan account for 7 World Championships since 1992. But the other Olympic Champions were Baiul (UKR) and Arakawa (JPN) and Ladies World champions were Baiul (UKR), Sato (JPN), Chen (CHN), Butyrskaya (RUS), Slutskaya (RUS) and Arakawa (JPN).
So I wouldn't say that the #1 US ladies are anywhere near as dominant as the #1 AND #2 Russian ice dancers.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I have seen D/L, Den/Sta, Del/Schoe, and B/A repeatedly, live over the last few years, and Dom/Sha since they started in Seniors, and while I would say that D/L's overall flow has improved, as well as the speed in the more open parts of their programs, they are not a fast team, and it is in their footwork that they get bogged down. She is getting a bit better at bending her knees, but she does not use her blades nearly as efficiently as any of the other women in the top six. David Wilson should be given the Tatiana Tarasova Award for hiding their flaws as well as he has in the past two FD's.

If I am being cynical about why B/A were "allowed" to have the Olympic silver medal, I would say that they were used as the first CoP team to break the barrier of the last half generation of ice dancers, which include D/L, G/G, Den/Sta, C/S, and adding back in F-P/M and D/V. B/A have the difficulty and the abilities to exploit CoP to compensate with speed and technique what they lack in line and traditional danciness. They made their big leap in 2004, after CoP had been implemented.

If Dom/Sha had been the first CoP-based team to break into the top five and podium, there would be more screaming than there is now, IMO. But once the ice was broken with B/A, they can come in and step over the debris.

I personally think that Domnina/Shabalin have terrific basics. They skate sooooo close together. She has wonderful lines, which will only improve. He, IMO, is much better than Kostomarov, especially at his age. They need to gel a little more, but they've done their foundation work, and each year, in my eyes, they've built from it. I just hope Gorshkov and Petukhov don't make them weird, because their style is very classical.

 

[La Rhumba]

I personally think that Domnina/Shabalin have terrific basics. They skate sooooo close together. She has wonderful lines, which will only improve. He, IMO, is much better than Kostomarov, especially at his age. They need to gel a little more, but they've done their foundation work, and each year, in my eyes, they've built from it. I just hope Gorshkov and Petukhov don't make them weird, because their style is very classical.

ITA, the year DenStav dropped down the rankings they had two dud routines. DomShabs FD music the last 2 seasons has been dreary, so I much prefer the choice of Polotsvian Dances. I don't think anyone would argue that Shabalin is by far the better icedancer than Kostomarov, and together they just look so impressive, they have the ability to make you swoon with the quality of their dancing.

 

[La Rhumba]

So I wouldn't say that the #1 US ladies are anywhere near as dominant as the #1 AND #2 Russian ice dancers.

What doesn't happen anymore is the new members of the Russian icedance team for Euros and Worlds being placed in the top 10 on debut. This always happened in the past, usually due to strength in depth, and when you saw newcomers like Usova & Zhulin, you could see why they would win a medal at an international competition on debut [at the pre GP events].
However it's still the case that the US Ladies debutants will make the top 10 at Worlds or even Olympics, and can you imagine the kerfuffle that would've been caused if Virtue & Moir had been Russian and won the Bronze Medal at the CoR GP on their Senior debut?

 

[antmanb]

I hope the optimist is right on both counts!

Just to finish my train of thought: if ice dance does appear to reward seniority in a fairly predictable manner, is it really a sport? And why would people keep watching if they can't expect the best skaters to win?

Thanks for answering my questions. Can't say I'm not still confused, though!

I think Dance is particularly difficult to feel for difficulty and skill, especially from television. I must admit to never having been that interested in ice dance until i started skatnig myself and then i really began to appreciate what they were doing. Not only that but the flow and speed and the lean and lines the skaters achieve is part of the thrill of ice dance and personally i only really get that live and not on TV.

I think the predictions in ice dance are probably much easier to make on the basis that the skaters are expected to skate clean and not make mistakes. Falls on jumps in singles are common and we can pontificate all day long that so long and so-and-so lands the jumps, hits the spins and doesn't fall then they will win. In ice dance they don't tend to fall (though Torino was a surprise). I will always remember Robin Cousins saying that ice dance is more difficult to explain because "in singles they either do the jumps or they don't, but in ice dance you can't say they do the edge or they don't do the edge" and i think that's true. Overall its a lot more subjective than singles or pairs.

Ant

 

[chuckm]

What doesn't happen anymore is the new members of the Russian icedance team for Euros and Worlds being placed in the top 10 on debut. This always happened in the past, usually due to strength in depth, and when you saw newcomers like Usova & Zhulin, you could see why they would win a medal at an international competition on debut [at the pre GP events].
However it's still the case that the US Ladies debutants will make the top 10 at Worlds or even Olympics, and can you imagine the kerfuffle that would've been caused if Virtue & Moir had been Russian and won the Bronze Medal at the CoR GP on their Senior debut?

No, the NEW Russian ice dance members don't place in the top 10, because they're not the #1 or #2.

And as antmanb pointed out, singles skating and ice dancing aren't comparable.

New ice dance teams can win medals at their GP debut, as we have seen. There was no "kerfuffle" over V/M winning the silver medal on their debut, although as some pointed out prior to the event, the Skate Canada roster had been carefully designed to allow that to happen. And anyway, GP events are not comparable to championship competitions because there are too many variables (quality of the original roster, and the number of replacements prior to the event taking place). So there was no cry of foul when Kawaguchi/Smirnov won bronze in Pairs at their debut at Cup of Russia.

 

[La Rhumba]

Whilst we're dissecting Dance, what do posters think about the present emphasis on speed, and is it overrated?

Obviously when a couple does a slow crawl across the ice, as G&G did in Torino and still won a medal, you have to ask yourself the question, how hard is it for Elite dancers to be precise in the footwork sequences when they are skating at the speed of an intermediate couple, and is this worth more points than a couple going much faster, but not as accurately with the edges and twizzles?

But of the less obvious examples - D&L are always *accused* of being slow, but I don't think it's particularly noticeable on TV, it probably is live - I refer to the 2002 season when Babs FP said at a Press Conference that she and Mauri were much faster than A&P, Marina countered with: "But it's not downhill skiing!" [I tend to go along with Marina's view, and think that speed in Dance can be overrated]. What do you think?

 

[rain]

Whilst we're dissecting Dance, what do posters think about the present emphasis on speed, and is it overrated?

Obviously when a couple does a slow crawl across the ice, as G&G did in Torino and still won a medal, you have to ask yourself the question, how hard is it for Elite dancers to be precise in the footwork sequences when they are skating at the speed of an intermediate couple, and is this worth more points than a couple going much faster, but not as accurately with the edges and twizzles?

But of the less obvious examples - D&L are always *accused* of being slow, but I don't think it's particularly noticeable on TV, it probably is live - I refer to the 2002 season when Babs FP said at a Press Conference that she and Mauri were much faster than A&P, Marina countered with: "But it's not downhill skiing!" [I tend to go along with Marina's view, and think that speed in Dance can be overrated]. What do you think?

I think the question of speed needs to be balanced with other things, such as difficulty, but personally, I wouldn't mind a bit more variety in speed within specific programs. It wasn't that long ago that slowing down and speeding up within a program, dictated by music, was common. It's only fairly recent that the fad for teams travelling at high velocity throughout, no matter what the music is doing, has come to be so prevalent.

As for D/L, I think the speed criticism comes from those who don't really like the team and are looking for a flaw they can critique. It's true that a few years ago they did not have the speed of the top teams, but having seen them live I can tell you that that is no longer the case. When they moved to France to train this was one of the goals — to break down and recreate their technique so they would be competitive speed-wise. It worked. I think, like singles skaters who get pegged with the "not artistic" criticism, the "but they don't have speed" criticism for D/L has simply hung on beyond its expiration date.

 

[dorispulaski]

Fashions in Ice Dance; some musings

Unfortunately, what is 'good' in ice dance seems to be a function of the strong point of the current world champions, who ever they are, but it's less clear, which came first, chicken or egg (the style or the excellence).

However, speed and depth of edges have been a criterion, along with skating on the beat, exactly retracing the pattern, and conveying the character of the dance, of compulsories forever.

Speed is particularly noticeable in the compulsories where the size of the pattern is key as big pattern = good edges, good speed.

Nowadays, when you've got to get level 4's on your step sequences. To get level four, you have to get all kinds of steps in, which is lots easier to do if you're snail crawling across the ice (as G&G), so in that sense, speed has been somewhat devalued of late.

What I like to see, but I'm not a judge, is the ability to skate slow in the slow parts and fast in the fast parts. An example would be T&D's blues OSP which was skated s l o w to s l o w tempo Summertime. It was considered quite the tour de force at the time. T&D also introduced the 'must tell a story' idea, and 'moves should be unique & surprising', carried on by the Duchesnays.

Klimova Ponomarenko were competing (& excelling) in smoothness and conveying Romance. Usova & Zhulin were competing with the same stuff, adding Sex.

I enjoyed all those eras!

When Grishuk and Platov came along they were super fast across the ice so all of a sudden, speed was the be all and end all, where it was appropriate (rock n roll, polka) and where it was not, too. I found that era of dancing very boring to watch. The inheritors of this were FP/M who galloped across the ice like the Gadarene swine running over the cliff but with not great teknik.

During the Navka years, all of a sudden leg line was the be all and end all (which Navka surely has, as did Grushina, as did not Belbin). I found ice dance very much fun to watch during these years.

We are now in the post Navka age, and lifts seem to be more important than steps suddenly, another change I'm not crazy about. I like dancing to be dancy!

Be aware, the above is not definitive and is only how I feel/felt about ice dance and has no relation whatever to what should be the criteria for ice dance.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Speed should vary with the tempo of the music. A slow Quick Step is kind of lilke bleh. For the free dance, I think the dance couple should not lose the rythym to show how speedy they are.

In Singles, I am not in favor of speed if it means slowing down cautiously before a jump. A skater should know his speed limits and skate throughout with that limit varying it to the tempo of the music.

Joe

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, indeed, Joe, speed in the quickstep (and whatever else I may say negative about FP/M, they had a nifty quickstep!

 

[blue dog]

Honestly, while these teams are great, I am looking forward to the next generation (I hope they don't fall into the trap of imitating a team that is winning now)--when V/M, D/W, K/N, and M/Z come into their own. Those teams are the ones exciting to me--not the current crop.

I can't wait to see the current crop retire and make room for the new wave.

 

[euterpe]

I think speed becomes an issue when there a FD is basically a low-speed affair and there is little variation in speed throughout. D/L's current FD has a leisurely pace throughout with little or no change in speed, yet both of them have had problems with the twizzles even at low speed.

Denkova/Staviiski's FD has some slow parts and some very fast parts, and all are of great difficulty. Domnina/Shabalin's FD is quite fast and almost frantic with few slower moments; they have some very difficult moves, but some of them are a trifle sloppy. B/A's FD has slow and fast parts, but the program is obviously not fully developed and needs a lot of work. DelShoes program is mostly fast with a few slower movements and there is considerable difficulty.

I personally think that D/L are not capable of performing intricate footwork at top speed, so they concentrate on programs that feature elegant lifts, and keep the speed down so as to make the most of the skills they do have.

 

[lanadd]

That was my honest opinion as a Den&Stav fan of old, and not previously a D&L Fan till last year's Worlds. I felt that watching TV [all 3 sections on Eurosport] and later reading Albert Saadi's live report in Skatewatch, a British newsletter, of a reporter whose opinion I respect, and I would also class as *neutral*.

My post was replying to Spun Silver, who asked why in Dance a couple who aren't expected to win, but produce a stunning performance, still can't win, as opposed to Figure Skating. IMO last year's Worlds was an example of that - not as blatant as Moniott & Lavanchy not winning over G&P at 94 Worlds - but nonetheless it was evident that DenStav had slight errors and were slightly *off* whereas D&L were flawless, but were never going to win - thus is the way of Dance comps.....However I do not begrudge DenStav's world title at all, as IMO they should've won in 2004 but were denied, so you could say it all evens out, but that shouldn't be the case should it?

Ok.But also i was watching Eurosport in english and in german-i even have their dances taped. The english comentator said about the FD of D/L "is it good enough" and "their program looks too open when you compare it to the program of the lithuianians and the bulgarians. the German comentator said that the world tittle was correctly won by D/S. I haven't heard anything about D/S undeserved 1st place.About my opinion of the dances of those 2 teams is: D/S OD- a little out of unison on the twizzzles,but very good speed and no changes of the foot.The FD- clean.D/L i don't remember very well their OD-must have been not so impressive,but lets say clean but technically not much demanding-thats why they were 3rd in this section.The FD very emotional,but again technically not as difficult, too open, and there was an obvious mistake on the twizzles at the end-one on them made one less rotation then the other.And when you have in mind the huge difference between the strength and the influence of the canadian fed. and the bulgarian one plus the fact that Canada was the host nation...and still wasn't enough for the canadians to win over D/S???And if they D/S didn't deserved it,what made judges give it to them???And now looking in the new season,what makes judges do that again and this time with a lot bigger difference in points?
I don't know what to think about Dom/S rise, i don't think they deserved the 3rd place on the GPF, but i do absolutely hate that Del/S have been put down to 4th place when i trully and really believe they have to be the second strongest couple in the world right now

I personally think that D/L are not capable of performing intricate footwork at top speed, so they concentrate on programs that feature elegant lifts, and keep the speed down so as to make the most of the skills they do have.

They almost stopped at the second section of the twizzles in the GPF and still couldn't do it??? And if anyone looked at the Obersdorf gala-she felt down.Here their fans will say that when you make the twizzles at a low speed is much more difficult.Well lets change the criteria in ice dancing because of D/L!!And if we can't - could somebody teach them how to do twizzles and difficult footwork, not only some elegant tricky and cheesy movements plus the lifts they are using since 3 years

However..... HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dorispulaski]

I do remember D&L's OD from last year. How could I not, when they fell on the last lift in it at Olympics?

Here's a vid of their OD from Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkK3LBbwek

And from my perspective, D&L's OD failed to convey the correct spirit of a Latin program, particularly in the rhumba section by their use of a French torch song, 'ne me quittez pas'. Plus the tacky pseudo strip move as Marie-France moves the little strips of fabric from the front of the costume to the back. Not to mention all the head tossing stuff by Marie-France. Both D&S and B&A were far better in that section of the competition. ( I could wish that B&A didn't use 'Let's Get Loud' for the final salsa section though.)

Warning : I tend to be a non-fan of dancers who can't dance though...YMMV. I find D/L highly overmarked, especially compared to DenStas, DelSchoes and B&A.

 

[SeaniBu]

Warning : I tend to be a non-fan of dancers who can't dance though...YMMV. I find D/L highly overmarked, especially compared to DenStas, DelSchoes and B&A.

Hunh, I never looked at it that way I guess - just thought Ice requires a different approach. But now that you say something - glad you did for I am getting more and more interested in this discipline - I would say I do note a difference in how say Tanith and Ben seem to have good over all dancing skill regardless of the ice - the way they have "dance looking steps." And that did create a wonderful picture in my head of TnB hitting the club floor. I bet they really could "cut a rug" more so then some of the others.


The speed = less opportunity for steps thing????? I wonder if more circular or serpentine SSqs would allow for the speed and all of the steps giving more time due to covering more ice? Why don't we see more Circular SSq?

 

[chuckm]

I agree with Doris--that inexplicably, D/L were overmarked last season, and that is continuing into this season, even when they make mistakes. Marie-France's near-fall on the twizzle in the FD at the GPF barely affected their marks. We saw DelShoes take a major hit at CoR for a far lesser mistake, and I am sure B/A and DenSta would get dinged hard for a similar goof.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

We saw DelShoes take a major hit at CoR for a far lesser mistake, and I am sure B/A and DenSta would get dinged hard for a similar goof.

It proves my point that comparing points from one competition to another comp, just doesn't make sense.

Joe