Imagining alternative partners in pairs/dance

[BlackPack]

hyperinflation... what happened in your childhood?

 

[hyperinflation]

hyperinflation... what happened in your childhood?

what's that supposed to mean!!!

 

[Ryan O]

Why did Poirier and Crone split? That was so sudden and they were on the rise. Same with Samuelson and Bates. Was it just loss of confidence once Emily accidentally sliced his achilles with her blade? Granted a pretty bad mistake but an accident, none the less. I must say, in Poirier's case, I am really liking what I see with Gilles. I'm really looking forward to seeing them in Worlds. Chock and Bates, not so much.

We never got a detailed explanation as to why Crone & Poirier split, but that's true of other partnerships.

Based on their press statements in 2011 (and other speculation), it sounds like it was a combination of:

1. After being together for 10 years since they were kids like Tessa & Scott, by the time they were in their late teens they had grown apart and developed different goals (which is what they said in their PR release).

2. Their personal interaction and friendship, which used to be very good, had deteriorated.

3. Vanessa is rumoured to have wanted to leave coach Carol Lane/Toronto and move to America to train, whereas Paul wanted to stay with Lane in Toronto.

Don't know a lot about Samuelson & Bates other than that it looked like after Emily had waited a whole season for Evan to recover from his injury, and that once he was healed he told her he was ending their partnership. She was apparently quite surprised after waiting all season for him to get back on the ice. Since both of these partnerships ended at the same time, it was reported that Samuelson & Poirier had discussed the idea of skating together, but some people think the USFS didn't agree to release her.

 

[Ryan O]

lol i always got the feeling crone and poirier haaaaaaated each other, they literally looked physically repulsed by each other on the ice sometimes

chock and bates are far more promising than gilles and poirier though, they have far better skating skills and madison's a real dynamo even if evan's kind of a wet fish. besides, from a politicking point of view, assuming d/w retire this season, they become the new undisputed US #1, whereas g/p have weaver/poje "the ones who waited their turn" and paul/islam "baby v/m clones" to deal with

Perhaps BlackPack is referring to your comment about C&P hating each other. It sounds a bit extreme, and at odds with generally established history. According to most observers (and from what I could tell myself) Crone & Poirier had a very close friendship with each other up until their final season. I've never heard that they disliked each other - quite the contrary. Something went wrong towards the end, but it's unlikely they stayed together for 10 years and got as far as they did if they hated each other.

As for Chock & Bates, they are not necessarily the undisputed #1 in the U.S. They usually only place a spot or so ahead of The Shibutanis, so they don't have the lock on their position the way D&W did. And if H&D keep improving, they can close the gap too. So I think American ice dance will have several competitive dance teams. You are right that the same situation exists in Canada. But we don't know how long W&P will stay yet, and I don't see any evidence that P&I are V&M clones considering that it's taken them until this month just to get to their first World Championship! Islam is 2 years older than Poirier and this is his 1st Worlds whereas this is Poirier's 5th. P&I are going to need to move a bit faster if they want to be the next V&M. V&M were already Olympic gold medalists by the time they were P&I's ages.

 

[hyperinflation]

Don't know a lot about Samuelson & Bates other than that it looked like after Emily had waited a whole season for Evan to recover from his injury, and that once he was healed he told her he was ending their partnership.

thanks for reminding me why i don't like evan bates. apart from his terrible skating ofc

Perhaps BlackPack is referring to your comment about C&P hating each other. It sounds a bit extreme, and at odds with generally established history. According to most observers (and from what I could tell myself) Crone & Poirier had a very close friendship with each other up until their final season. I've never heard that they disliked each other - quite the contrary. Something went wrong towards the end, but it's unlikely they stayed together for 10 years and got as far as they did if they hated each other.

i was surprised when they split up b/c they were canada's #2 and were consistently beating w/p up until that point. i don't take back my comments about them looking repulsed by each other at times though b/c my spidey sense tells me those two barely tolerated each other and were only together because they were fairly successful for so young.

As for Chock & Bates, they are not necessarily the undisputed #1 in the U.S. They usually only place a spot or so ahead of The Shibutanis, so they don't have the lock on their position the way D&W did. And if H&D keep improving, they can close the gap too. So I think American ice dance will have several competitive dance teams. You are right that the same situation exists in Canada. But we don't know how long W&P will stay yet, and I don't see any evidence that P&I are V&M clones considering that it's taken them until this month just to get to their first World Championship! Islam is 2 years older than Poirier and this is his 1st Worlds whereas this is Poirier's 5th. P&I are going to need to move a bit faster if they want to be the next V&M. V&M were already Olympic gold medalists by the time they were P&I's ages.

the shibs have had a target on their back since they won their "everyone else fell" bronze at worlds and have steadily fallen in the rankings since. even if the rumors about them retiring after a poor showing at the olympics aren't true (which better not happen, i want my shibsibs/marina vs. chock&bates/igor bloodbath, dammit!!), i don't see them usurping c/b. also hubbell just had surgery, i don't see them being competitive for the top spot next season.

w/p have implied they're shooting for pyeongchang, so i think they're sticking around. and the v/m comparison to p/i has nothing to do with v/m's accomplishments at a young age which we probably won't see repeated again for a long time. it's mostly about skating style, their soppy romantic tendencies, and alex's extreme similarities to tessa verging on single white female territory. which will probably be their downfall if they keep identifying themselves like that - no one's gonna care about a second-rate, inferior version of v/m when the actual version is so fresh in people's memories. plus they need to stop falling flat on their faces 3/5 times they compete

 

[jolen]

We never got a detailed explanation as to why Crone & Poirier split, but that's true of other partnerships.

Based on their press statements in 2011 (and other speculation), it sounds like it was a combination of:

1. After being together for 10 years since they were kids like Tessa & Scott, by the time they were in their late teens they had grown apart and developed different goals (which is what they said in their PR release).

2. Their personal interaction and friendship, which used to be very good, had deteriorated.

3. Vanessa is rumoured to have wanted to leave coach Carol Lane/Toronto and move to America to train, whereas Paul wanted to stay with Lane in Toronto.

Don't know a lot about Samuelson & Bates other than that it looked like after Emily had waited a whole season for Evan to recover from his injury, and that once he was healed he told her he was ending their partnership. She was apparently quite surprised after waiting all season for him to get back on the ice. Since both of these partnerships ended at the same time, it was reported that Samuelson & Poirier had discussed the idea of skating together, but some people think the USFS didn't agree to release her.

From the media stories, Paul and Carol said he had different goals, what that means is open to interpretation. Vanessa seemed to tow the "be polite and diplomatic" line. Carol not so much. A partnership requires give and take and compromise - not going to work if that doesn't come from both partners. I have to wonder how much was coaching.

BTW since you mentioned it, Tessa and Scott, in their long term relationship, had a time where their partnership was severely strained. Their coach arranged for whatever was required to work through the difficulties. Different approach, obviously more considerate of both partners and ultimately successful.

Samuelson and Poirier were not a suitable match physically and she had only been out for one year so the time wait for release would have been much longer. Anyhow, rumour had it, in both situations, the other partnership was already in the works for some time.

Both Samuelson and Crone were stunned with their partners announcements.

Personally, from all the stories about partnerships that I have heard, I would have to think long and hard to have my child involved with pairs or dance.

 

[jolen]

thanks for reminding me why i don't like evan bates. apart from his terrible skating ofc



i was surprised when they split up b/c they were canada's #2 and were consistently beating w/p up until that point. i don't take back my comments about them looking repulsed by each other at times though b/c my spidey sense tells me those two barely tolerated each other and were only together because they were fairly successful for so young.



the shibs have had a target on their back since they won their "everyone else fell" bronze at worlds and have steadily fallen in the rankings since. even if the rumors about them retiring after a poor showing at the olympics aren't true (which better not happen, i want my shibsibs/marina vs. chock&bates/igor bloodbath, dammit!!), i don't see them usurping c/b. also hubbell just had surgery, i don't see them being competitive for the top spot next season.

w/p have implied they're shooting for pyeongchang, so i think they're sticking around. and the v/m comparison to p/i has nothing to do with v/m's accomplishments at a young age which we probably won't see repeated again for a long time. it's mostly about skating style, their soppy romantic tendencies, and alex's extreme similarities to tessa verging on single white female territory. which will probably be their downfall if they keep identifying themselves like that - no one's gonna care about a second-rate, inferior version of v/m when the actual version is so fresh in people's memories. plus they need to stop falling flat on their faces 3/5 times they compete

WOW - what do you eat for breakfast???? Can you say anything good?

PS. I wouldn't suggest you go hanging off any tall buildings with that "SPIDEY-SENSE"!

 

[96skiluvr]

Anyone have an idea for a new partner for Martiusheva? She and Rogonov split - preferably a new coach as well while you're at it

 

[pangtongfan]

Well anyway, the general point we were discussing on the previous page is that the main difference between being a single skater and a pairs or dance team is obviously the partnership aspect. It's not just about whether you have good skating skills and moves, but whether you have the personality and willingness to work closely with someone else for a long period of time and support the other person through ups & downs, injuries, etc. and do so under the glare of the media and the audience.

Several decades ago when I was a kid and first watched skating on t.v. with my parents at the Olympics, Worlds, etc. I just used to think about the cool moves and tricks that skating teams used to do and assumed they must do a lot of work on those to get them right. I didn't think at all about the interpersonal dynamics or challenges of working with another person under stressful conditions. It wasn't until I got older that I realized how much work goes into maintaining a skating partnership and that we are expecting these skaters to be able to do so at very young ages. There are many adults in their 40's, 50's, 60's, etc. who still don't know how to get along with another person (whether in a marriage or a business partnership in an office), and yet we expect teenagers and 20-something's to be able to do so in these skating partnerships!

Barb Underhill put it best: "you dont even have to be great friends, just great business partners."

 

[pangtongfan]

Why did Poirier and Crone split? That was so sudden and they were on the rise.

They werent really on the rise at the very moment they split. They had just finished a disaesterous 10th at worlds despite skating well. This is the year many expected them to challenge for a medal, and the Shibutanis who had always been beneath them under 4CCs that year, were the bronze medalists. They had suddenly dropped to Canada #3 after being pushed but controversially held up over Weaver & Poje all season long, including Canadians which they were gifted the win despite an obvious miscue.

 

[wasabi]

They werent really on the rise at the very moment they split. They had just finished a disaesterous 10th at worlds despite skating well. This is the year many expected them to challenge for a medal, and the Shibutanis who had always been beneath them under 4CCs that year, were the bronze medalists. They had suddenly dropped to Canada #3 after being pushed but controversially held up over Weaver & Poje all season long, including Canadians which they were gifted the win despite an obvious miscue.

They were not pushed over W/P. The younger C/P team had skating skills which always exceeded those of W/P. W/P may have been crowd favorites with their popular, recognizable programs, but were known to make mistakes in programs and were sloppy. W/P simply did not match in the quality of the elements or skills, epecially Kaitlyn. Now I happen to like W/P very much, and admire them for the work they have done in the last quad, but I think the best thing that happened to them was C/P always beating them. Try to remember when W/P burst on the scene, many thought of them as the next to inherit the title and then just couldn't get over the fact that their Worlds 18th and 22nd finish (now that is a disaster) did not quite measure up to everyone's expectations. Somehow C/P nipping at their heels and winning over them was just considered hype and pushing of C/P over the supposedly much more deserving W/P, with little credit given to their skills. I do agree that it was a very tight race between the two teams for the title that last year, but it was in no way a "gifted" to C/P or an unfairly held up win. They won it fair and square.

But it was evident that there was a problem brewing in the Scarboro camp and that is what happened at Worlds. They definitely did not skate to their normal level or well. I also heard Vanessa had been quite ill prior to the Worlds competition.

They did very well at their GP that year. I think they took the SC title followed by the National title. i don't remember what the GPF results were. But in any case, that would be the reason they were considered as potentials for the podium.

I know you were never a fan of C/P, but do not minimize what they accomplished and could have continued to accomplish if the cards had fallen differently at the end of the season. It would have been a great rivalry and I am sure would have resulted in continuing improvements for both C/P and W/P if they had not broken up.

 

[hyperinflation]

i don't remember what the GPF results were. But in any case, that would be the reason they were considered as potentials for the podium.

they finished third at gpf but skate canada's politicking for c/p was out of control. people are forgetting that there was a big chance for a long time that v/m wouldn't make worlds and sc was pushing c/p in the interim. it made sense for the team that had already been to the olympics and finished respectably to be seen as next in line.

 

[anyanka]

I would want to see the two most dramatic skaters of the last decade together: Barbara Fusar-Poli and Max Trankov. I would so watch that reality show, just for the hysterics and the diva-off. (I am a fan of both BTW)

 

[pangtongfan]

They were not pushed over W/P. The younger C/P team had skating skills which always exceeded those of W/P. W/P may have been crowd favorites with their popular, recognizable programs, but were known to make mistakes in programs and were sloppy.

Except that at Canadians that year W&P were absolutely flawless and sublime, while it was C/P who made obvious mistakes and were sloppy. That decision was plain wrong and nothing you can say can convince me otherwise. IIRC C/P in fact lost the TES to W/P, which show the normal advantages you refer to, some that have merit, were not what won them that event, but it was grossly inflated PCS that saved C/P's win there which was wrong. Anyway the laugh was on SC as that foolish decision cost Canada an aditional world medal that year as I am sure W/P would have beaten the Shibutanis for the bronze that year otherwise.

I did not imply W/P were head and shoulders above C/P. C/P did have legitimate technical advantages, just as W/P had some advantages, particularly in performance and maturity, over C/P. However to deny the judging was unfairly slanted in C/P's favor is to live in a little dream world. C/P didnt lose to W/P even once after the 2008 Canadians, until the 2011 Worlds, even times they had a glaring mistake, and this was not reality. Granted at an event like 2009 Canadians they were superior enough to warrant beating W/P comfortably even with their fall, but this was not always the case. It is also funny you seem to forget C/P were also not immune to mistakes, and had a large number of them for a top 10 team. It was not just W/P who were prone to mistakes, although that part is also true.

BTW Paul Poirier is still often overscored with his new partner. At the Canadians this year they were scored properly though, and we see what happened.

 

[hyperinflation]

BTW Paul Poirier is still often overscored with his new partner.

ain't that the truth

it's a shame piper isn't a better skater because he certainly is very talented, but she's pretty terrible

 

[kasik8222]

Although there is no official study or measurement that has been done, it appears that the majority of pairs and dance teams don't become off-ice couples. Some just work together on the ice and have little interaction off the ice, while others become close friends. Only a minority become romantic couples, and only a small number of those make it as far as getting married and having a family. I remember reading an interview with coach Richard Gauthier a few years ago where he said that when a new pair arrives to work with him, he actually prefers it if they aren't a real-life couple because he thinks it complicates things. It's important to keep the off-ice drama separate from the work on the ice.

That is very funny because I remember his interview for polish sport magazine and he said "You can't skate together without love". In fact, most his top pairs were off ice couples too (Jamie/David, Dorota Siudek/Mariusz Siudek, Valerie and Craig)

 

[blue eyed birds]

I see people here and there suggesting that Alexandra Paul's pulling a "single white female" on Tessa and I have to admit I'm curious what they see as excessive similarities? Both are brunette and pale and have ballet training; can someone explain what additional issues they're noticing? Genuinely curious.

Also...while I'd like to see P/I branch out into trying more styles, V/M have such an extensive body of work that it strikes me as a little unfair for them to be thought of as having a patent on lyrical romance. With P/I's focus having been more on technical development, it makes some sense that they've used the style that they seem strongest and most comfortable with in their FDs along with some ballroom style like waltz and tango.

There have also been many pairs and ice dancers who were married or romantically involved. Many have divorced. Exposure to international travel, shows, and globalization has given people more opportunities to date other people. At the moment, I can only think of Linichuk and Karponossov, Rahkamo and Kokko, and Klimova and Ponomarenko as couples on and off the ice in lasting marriages.

There are also Dubreuil/Lauzon, Wing/Lowe, Punsalan/Swallow, and Langlois/Hay, to name four more who are married. The first two are also coaching teams (not sure about L/H) and P/S both work at the Detroit Skating Club.

 

[kasik8222]

Rita and Povilas, Siudeks got married in 2000 and still together. 14 years of marriage it's not bad result in figure skating world.

 

[Ryan O]

BTW Paul Poirier is still often overscored with his new partner. At the Canadians this year they were scored properly though, and we see what happened.

As for Canadians this year, the judging panel decided to prefer P&I, but the international scores have yet to demonstrate that P&I are a better team. They did not skate that well in Sochi and barely qualified for the FD, whereas G&P skated cleanly with 2 Season's Bests at 4 Continents and won a silver. So that's what's happened since Nationals.

At this point in time, G&P still have a higher ISU ranking & international scores compared to P&I, but the two teams are still close. We'll see how they both do at Worlds. I hope this won't become another G&P vs. P&I thread.

 

[Ryan O]

i was surprised when they split up b/c they were canada's #2 and were consistently beating w/p up until that point. i don't take back my comments about them looking repulsed by each other at times though b/c my spidey sense tells me those two barely tolerated each other and were only together because they were fairly successful for so young.

I just don't think that's the case - I've never heard anyone else say that. People who know them well say they were good friends and worked together well for many years. I recently re-watched their 7th place Worlds finish in March 2010, and when they got their scores in the K&C, Paul even gave Vanessa a tender kiss on the cheek. I think they were still getting along well at that point. It seems to be the pressures and expectations of that final season when they were temporarily Canada's top dance team when V&M were injured that caused a strain on their partnership.