Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

[Mathman]

^ I think we are saying the same thing about counterrotation. Counterrotation means, first you are turning clockwise, then you are turning counterclockwise.

In a perfectly done Lutz you make the change at the moment of takeoff. In a flutz you make the change a split second before takeoff by slipping over to the inside (counterclockwise) edge, This makes the turning in the counterclockwise direction easier because you have a head strart, as in the case of a flip.

The more this debate goes back and forth, the more I am starting to like the suggestion of the coaches' group that George Rossano brought to our attention, Just roll the two jumps into one category, for purposes of the CoP. Under the coaches plan you could do two Lutzes OR two flips OR one of each, but you would not be allowed to do four.

So for instance, you would not be allowed -- as skarters are allowed under the current rules -- to do 2 flips AND 2 flutzes.

This rule change would also result in a more "balanced" program. The way it is now, ladies trying to max out their points use four of their seven jumping passes to do this type of jump.

If only I had a name for "crappy spin position" that rolled off the tongue like "flutz" and "lip".

I am torn between "crasp" and shisp."

 

[tarotx]

I think we should see what trying to penalize flutz and lip jumps do for the next generation of skaters. It's really hard to do both jumps. One is harder for some skaters then the other but they are different jumps.

 

[Mathman]

I think we should see what trying to penalize flutz and lip jumps do for the next generation of skaters.

The best idea, no doubt.

Nancy Kerrigan writes in her book about how her coaches, Evy and Mary Scotsvold, used to make her and Paul Wylie skate all the way around the rink in a complete circle holding their back outside edge, to train them for a proper Lutz technique.

But I still think that the propasal of the Coaches Committee has merit. To me, the number one problem of the IJS is that the contest is decided at the scoring table rather than on the ice.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think we should see what trying to penalize flutz and lip jumps do for the next generation of skaters. It's really hard to do both jumps. One is harder for some skaters then the other but they are different jumps.

Is a triple sommersault in Diving with no splash easy? Why should figure skating be a namby pamby sport? and btw, these skaters we are writing about are Seniors. Aren't they?

What is the case for making Figure Skating easier?

Mathman, there is only one jump recognized now that has a counterrotation takeoff into and air turn and that is the Lutz. Without counterrotating from ice to air, one is not doing a Lutz.
Most skaters can do a single lutz properly. It is the triple lutz that they can not do without getting more comfortable on the ice. Reason for me, is faulty training, and not body type.

A Wally has a counterrotation too, but that jump has become taboo except for some entertaining skaters who use it in musical footwork. A single Lutz without toeoff would be entertaining too, but somewhat dangerous. I can only think of Browning and Kulic doing such a move but I don't rermember seeing them do it.

 

[Mafke]

IIRC a 'toeless lutz' is called a Daney (sp?) but I don't know of anyone doing a single in ages (one of many lost moves) and I don't think anyone ever did a double.

 

[tarotx]

I don't think it should be easy. All I was talking about was doing both jumps is hard. I meant that in reply to the talk of making the two jumps one. I think that penalizing the wrong take off now will encourage young skaters to learn both jumps. I think we penalize now and later do more if it doesn't result in correcting what was allowed to happen.

 

[vlaurend]

An interesting difference between the sexes is that the muscles and ligaments that stabilise the male pelvis are much stronger and tighter than the ones that stabilise the female pelvis (reasons should be obvious). Since we have a large number of female flutzers but not many male flutzers - is it perhaps easier for men to maintain the outside edge because of the stronger ligaments etc.?

I think you may be onto something here. Looser hips are more likely to swivel a little as the skater reaches back to pick on a lutz or flip. However, I think this is purely gender related and has nothing to do with whether or not a skater has "open hips", which is a function of hip joint placement (inside vs. outside). For example, we all know Brian Boitano has open hips--we've seen his gorgeous outside spread eagles in both directions--but he has a clean lutz takeoff, as do most men.

As for the flip/lip/lutz/flutz discussion, hasn't that dead horse been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp yet? LOL!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^ I think we are saying the same thing about counterrotation. Counterrotation means, first you are turning clockwise, then yoU are turning counterclockwise.

No way , on a left back outside edge,you jump from the counterrotation position on the ice into a left air turn. Picture that same back outside edge then toe off, and watch the skater turn right in the air. That's the Toe Loop. One is counter rotation, the other is nothing more than the same rotation of every jump except the Wally. There is only one way to do a Loop Jump. a Salchow, and Flip depending on the takeoff edge but they all turn in the same direction.

In a perfectly done Lutz you make the change at the moment of takeoff. In a flutz you make the change a split second before takeoff by slipping over to the inside (counterclockwise) edge, This makes the turning in the counterclockwise direction easier because you have a head strart, as in the case of a flip.

There is no change, one will do a proper lutz or a proper toe loop. It all depends on which direction you are going as you leave the ice after takeoff. In the case of a Flutz, one is assuming that the skater does perfecr Lutzes but for that one time, accidentally could not hold onto the back outside edge and and rotated his blade on the ice to a back inside edge to do what appears to be a Flip. (What else could it be?) I believe it could be scored as a Flip but one has to be aware of the Zayak rule. So instead, it is given full base value for a lutz which was not executed and -1 GoE for the accidental switching of edges.

The proponents of the Wrong Edge Take off (Flutz) see it as an unfortnate deviation from the Lutz.

The proponents of the Lutz do not see a Flutz as a deviation from the true Lutz but do see a different jump.

The more this debate goes back and forth, the more I am starting to like the suggestion of the coaches' group that George Rossano brought to our attention, Just roll the two jumps into one category, for purposes of the CoP. Under the coaches plan you could do two Lutzes OR two flips OR one of each, but you would not be allowed to do four.

So for instance, you would not be allowed -- as skarters are allowed under the current rules -- to do 2 flips AND 2 flutzes.

This rule change would also result in a more "balanced" program. The way it is now, ladies trying to max out their points use four of their seven jumping passes to do this type of jump.

Since the American Ladies want to win the Olys at the youngest possible age, and they will not put in the time to learn a proper Triple Lutz then the whole system of the Lutz has to be changed. George Rossano has a suggestion, but there are other suggestions also. My suggestion would be to train the young ladies in doing a proper lutz because if the coaches (aware of the small penalty in doing a Flutz) continually let these kids compete with wrong edge take-offs, it becomes a habit and very difficult to break that habit.

If the acceptance of the Flutz as a mere accident coninues then those skaters with proper Lutzes should automatically get a +3 GoE.

As for the flip/lip/lutz/flutz discussion, hasn't that dead horse been beaten to an unrecognizable pulp yet? LOL!

Absolutely! Now tell me about the result and not the -1 deduction. Maybe we should talk more about the sequins.

 

[silver.blades]

No way , on a left back outside edge,you jump from the counterrotation position on the ice into a left air turn. Picture that same back outside edge then toe off, and watch the skater turn right in the air. That's the Toe Loop. One is counter rotation, the other is nothing more than the same rotation of every jump except the Wally. There is only one way to do a Loop Jump. a Salchow, and Flip depending on the takeoff edge but they all turn in the same direction.

A toe loop takes off from the opposite foot from the lutz. It had a weight transfer from the picking foot to the landing foot. So a CC spiner takes off for a Lz from a LBO edge and a toe loop from a RBO edge. They are compleatly different jumps.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A toe loop takes off from the opposite foot from the lutz. It had a weight transfer from the picking foot to the landing foot. So a CC spiner takes off for a Lz from a LBO edge and a toe loop from a RBO edge. They are compleatly different jumps.

I'm aware of that, but all ballet dancers can air turn in either direction. Figure Skating is NOT ballet, and all skaters turn one way except the few who are at ease going either way.. Not enough to demand anything special. I used it hypothetically.

 

[Mathman]

I think we are saying the same thing about counterrotation. Counterrotation means, first you are turning clockwise, then yoU are turning counterclockwise.

No way , on a left back outside edge,you jump from the counterrotation position on the ice into a left air turn.

I still don't see how we are sayihg anything different.

If you are on a left back outside edge, then you are automatically turning clockwise on the ice. Once you launch into the air, if you are doing a "left air turn," that is the same thing as saying that you are turning counterclockwise.

Isn't that exactly what we are both saying? "Counterrotation" means left back outside edge" (clockwise) on the ice, but turning left (counterclockwise) in the air.

There is no change...

Again, I do not understand this sentence. The "counter" in "counterrotation means "change." In some skating books they use the terms "against the blade" and "with the blade" instead of "counterrotation" and "natural rotation," respectively.

In a Lutz jump you are jumping "against the blade." This is because an outside edge natually describes the arc of a circle in the clockwise direction. But in the air, as you say, you are turning left (that is, counterclockwise). The direction of rotation has changed from the natural clockwise arc of the outside edge to the counterclockwise rotation in the air.

If you flutz, that's cheating. Because in a flip you are jumping "with the blade." The blade, being on an inside edge, is already following a (slight) counterclockwise arc on the ice, and when you jump you continue in the same left (counterclockwise) direction. There is no "change of direction" -- no counterrotation -- between the arc on the ice and the turning in the air.

I don't think we are in disagreement, just using different words.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^
Good explanation of counter and counter rotation ( "change rotation"). Really sorry for not understanding your post. We are saying the same thing about counterrotation. :agree:

and imo, losing that counterrotation, loses the Lutz.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The proponents of the Wrong Edge Take off (Flutz) see it as an unfortnate deviation from the Lutz.

The proponents of the Lutz do not see a Flutz as a deviation from the true Lutz but do see a different jump.

The definition you pick doesn't really matter? If you consider it a different jump, then it should still be scored.

In the case of a Flutz, one is assuming that the skater does perfecr Lutzes but for that one time, accidentally could not hold onto the back outside edge and and rotated his blade on the ice to a back inside edge to do what appears to be a Flip. (What else could it be?)

How does that make it appear to be a Flip? The body is still in the same position as doing a Lutz. The skater doesn't have the same momentum as they would with a Flip. Gliding backwards and then jumping is much different from the motion of doing a 3-turn/mohawk and then jumping. The distribution of body weight and the timing with the toepick in a Flutz mirrors a Lutz more than a Flip as well.

So that's 3 qualities a Flutz has that are shared with the Lutz and not the Flip. There's only 1 aspect where it is closer to a Flip (the edge).

Also, a Flutz does have counter-rotation (that's part of what I was talking about with "body position"). The Lutz causes the body to twist in the opposite direction of the rotational direction when entering into the jump. Even if a skater switches over to the inside edge (flutzes), their upper body has still shifted the opposite direction in some amount beforehand. It's not the same motion as doing a Flip, where the body is inclined to go the direction of the 3-turn/mohawk throughout the entire process.

Whatever people wish to argue about when it comes to the Flutz and Lip, do NOT call the Flutz a Flip and the Lip a Lutz. It's not true.

 

[Mafke]

Why not just create two new accredited jumps, the flutz and the lip with low base values (say the same as a toe loop) and harsh penalties for calling a flutz a lutz and a lip a flip.

So call your flutz a flutz and if you make it you get a certain amount of points (significantly fewer than a lutz). Call your flutz a lutz and get hammered for the wrong take off and get fewer than for the flutz (same thing with the flip/lip).

Works for me.

 

[Mathman]

...Even if a skater switches over to the inside edge (flutzes), their upper body has still shifted the opposite direction in some amount beforehand.

I think this is the key. For a flutz the counterroation begins prematurely, on the ice, and not at the launch of the jump. To me this is in the same category of error as pre-rotation.

Why not just create two new accredited jumps, the flutz and the lip with low base values (say the same as a toe loop) and harsh penalties for calling a flutz a lutz and a lip a flip.

So call your flutz a flutz and if you make it you get a certain amount of points (significantly fewer than a lutz). Call your flutz a lutz and get hammered for the wrong take off and get fewer than for the flutz (same thing with the flip/lip).

I don't understand your proposal. Who would be penalized for calling a flutz a Lutz? Calling the jump a flutz or a Lutz would be the job of the technical specialist, not the skater.

 

[gkelly]

I don't understand your proposal. Who would be penalized for calling a flutz a Lutz? Calling the jump a flutz or a Lutz would be the job of the technical specialist, not the skater.

Skaters are often asked to submit planned program content sheets. Are you proposing that they should write in a code for "Flutz" instead of Lz if they plan to change the edge, and be penalized if they write in Lz but do a flutz instead?

But skaters are not bound by the planned program content sheets. They're free to write 3Lz and choose to do a 2A in that spot instead, for example, if they changed their minds since the sheet was submitted. There's no penalty for doing that. There's also no penalty for doing a double jump instead of a triple (or a triple instead of a double if the skater suddenly mastered it since the form was filled out and wants to put it in), or for not submitting a sheet at all.

And sometimes they don't submit any elements at all, or only a few elements, or they change the program completely so that not only do the jumps come in a different order than planned but so do all the elements, and there's no point at all in the tech panel trying to follow the sheet as they call the elements.

What the skater calls the element on the sheet compared to what s/he actually does is therefore not something that can be penalized.

Because the edge change is an ERROR, it often isn't under the skater's complete control. The difference between a lutz and a flutz is often very small and subtle, and inconsistent. In general, the skaters attempt to take off the from the outside edge, but they might almost always fail in the attempt and change edge before takeoff, or they might almost always succeed but on a rare occasion lose concentration and make a mistake.

Suppose the skater recognizes that she usually changes edge and therefore calls her jump a flutz to avoid your penalty. What happens if on some occasion she does the jump correctly for once? Does she get penalize for doing a jump other than the one she called? Does she get rewarded for doing a correct lutz?

Leaving the planned program sheets aside, how else would a skater "call" their jump a lutz or a flutz? By the setup? But the standard setups would look pretty much the same. And unique/interesting setups would present even more of a problem of identification if the caller has to distinguish between four similar jumps (lutz, flip, flutz, lip) instead of just two.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can't find my base value sheet. My skating notes are all in disaray. Luckily I keep my tax notes and receipts in one file.

I could argue that holding the back inside edge is more difficult than holding a back outside edge but the only jump from the back inside edge is the Wally and we know that is all but banned in figure skating. Which eligible skaters do Triple Wallys?

So the Lutz gets the higher base value;

The Flip gets less than the Lutz;

The incomplete Flutz (based on Take Off, Air Rotation, Landing) gets full base value for a Lutz (which didn't happen) with a -1 for what seems to be an inadvertent missed taekoff. Was it inadvertent? or was it an incapability?

The Air Turns and the Landings which are now as difficult as Flips will be judged thusly as they are in other triple jumps. There will be no judgement for the counterrotation except a -1 for what seems to be the crux of the Lutz (jumping from its takeoff).

Therefore, are we judging a Lutz or a Flutz?

We are judging the Lutz, but imo, and I agree with Mafke that the Flutz should be made an official jump with much lower base value. My conclusion is just to end this matter and let the flutzes continue.

The Lip has other points to discuss. It seems to me that the Lip is putting itself into an inadvertent counterrotation takeoff which seems to be more difficult, but what I said earlier, back inside edge is in itself more difficult than a back outside edge. The questions arise: Can the skater do a Flip by definition? or does the skater make the take off more comfortable?

Again, with Mafke, I would legitimize the Lip with a much lower base value

Otherwise, I insist the GoEs for proper Lutzes and Lips should be given automatic +3s.

 

[gkelly]

I could argue that holding the back inside edge is more difficult than holding a back outside edge but the only jump from the back inside edge is the Wally

Ulrich Salchow would beg to disagree.

and we know that is all but banned in figure skating. Which eligible skaters do Triple Wallys?

None.
It's not the inside edge that makes the walley difficult, it's the counterrotation.

Lutz is easier than walley (and easier than toeless lutz, of which we don't even see singles) because of the toe assist at the change of direction.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ulrich Salchow would indeed be uspset if the skater took off on a back outside edge.

So too, Alois Lutz would be upset if the skater took off on a back inside edge.

 

[antmanb]

I could argue that holding the back inside edge is more difficult than holding a back outside edge but the only jump from the back inside edge is the Wally

:scratch: Actually, both of the salchow and the flip are jumps that take off from back inside edge - one without and the other with toe assist. Those are the listed jumps. There is also the toe-walley that takes off of that same BI edge but with a toe assist.

and we know that is all but banned in figure skating. Which eligible skaters do Triple Wallys?

The walley is not all but banned Joe! I'm impressed that you've out sensationalised me on this occasion No elligible skaters execute triple walleys. But no skater, to my knowledge ever has - both pre and post COP. Perhaps skaters would attempt a triple walley if it was added to the list of elements, but since attempts at a quad axel haven't gone up by virtue of the points assigned to it, i wouldn't hold my breath that a triple walley would be much more prominent either.

So the Lutz gets the higher base value;

The Flip gets less than the Lutz;

The incomplete Flutz (based on Take Off, Air Rotation, Landing) gets full base value for a Lutz (which didn't happen) with a -1 for what seems to be an inadvertent missed taekoff. Was it inadvertent? or was it an incapability?

Actually the judges may make a reduction to the base value of anything from -1 to -3 depending on the severity of the change of edge. Not just -1.

The Air Turns and the Landings which are now as difficult as Flips will be judged thusly as they are in other triple jumps. There will be no judgement for the counterrotation except a -1 for what seems to be the crux of the Lutz (jumping from its takeoff).

Therefore, are we judging a Lutz or a Flutz?

I don't really understand the above paragraph - the COP is pretty clear - a Lutz is called and the Tech specialist either alerts the judges to either a possible change of edge, or a definite change of edge. In the case of the definite change of edge the jump must be scored in the -GOE for the jump. "Flutz" is coined term used colloquially to refer to teh change of edge of a lutz.

The Lip has other points to discuss. It seems to me that the Lip is putting itself into an inadvertent counterrotation takeoff which seems to be more difficult, but what I said earlier, back inside edge is in itself more difficult than a back outside edge.

I'm not sure on what you are basing the idea that back inside edges are "more difficult" than outside edges. Ask a beginner to hold a back inside edge and back oustide edge and i think you'll find the inside edges are much easier to hold than the outside.

The questions arise: Can the skater do a Flip by definition? or does the skater make the take off more comfortable?

So have you changed your mind back again for the "lip" only? That you will look at the attempt and make a judgement on what the skater find comfortable when marking the jump? How would this be executed - would a pre competition interview be required? I am being ridiculous but just to prove a point. Joe if you stick with your "purist" view on the jump defined only by it's take off edge and the use or not of a toe assist, then a "lip" is merely a lutz - worthy of more points than the jump that was being attempted. Do you believe that a faulty jump such as a lip is actually not worth any deduction? Clearly not but you appear to take opposing views when trying to decide what to do with a flutz and what to do with a lip.