Is a quad salchow easier than a triple axel?

[hydroradi]

It seems odd that Miki and Sasha are training for the quad salchow and not the triple axel.

Isn't the triple axel an easier jump?

 

[show 42]

Good question, Hydro........I was thinking the same thing....why are the ladies trying quads and not triple axels? 42

 

[JonnyCoop]

It has to do with the takeoff. A triple axel requires more upper-body strength due to the takeoff than a quad salchow does.

Tara Lipinski, when asked after the 95 Nationals if she was going to be working on a triple axel or quad salchow in the future, said "I would rather work on the quad salchow because it is easier"...

 

[Antilles]

Well, it depends on what jump the skater finds hardest. For example, some skaters have a really hard time with the triple toe or the salchow, when those are supposed to be the easiest jumps, but they can nail all ther harder jumps.

In both of these cases, the skaters may really like the salchow jump, but don't feel comfortable with an axel. They may also just really want to push themselves to the hardest feat.

 

[Evdokia]

I'd say it depends on the skater. Probably for most skaters it would be more difficult to do a quad sal than a 3-axel, but if a skater has a weak 2-axel and a strong 3-sal, then it will make sense, to go rather for the quad.
It's like some skaters having problems with the loop, but having a strong lutz on the other hand, which is deemed to be the most difficult jump for the majority of the ladies. - The "average" ranking of the jumps in view of their difficulty may be just different for each individual skater.

 

[Ximena]

I agree that it depends in the skater, Plushy says that the hardest jump for him is the salchow, that's why he is trying so hard to put the quad sal in performance but os far he does not feel thta his sal is soo secure to put it on.

 

[thvudragon]

It seems odd that Miki and Sasha are training for the quad salchow and not the triple axel.

Isn't the triple axel an easier jump?

On paper, the 3axel is the easier jump. It has to come down to speed of rotation. Most ladies can't rely on the height that doing 3axels and quads require like men do. Ladies require very fast rotations. This is why many ladies skaters work on the quad salchow. It can create the fastest rotations.

TV

 

[soogar]

It's kind of interesting that on paper the quad salchow is harder, but Tim Goebal , a la quad king, has always maintained that a triple axel was a harder jump and if you check out Timmy's programs, he usually nails the quads but then has trouble on the triple axel. I think that the ladies train the quad salchow b/c the rotation starts on the ice verses a triple axel where you have to get a lot of height to hit all the rotations.

It's interesting how a lot of skaters have trouble with the salchow. Ie Kristi Yamguchi, Plushy. My skating instructor told me that even though her first triple was a salchow, it was a really weird jump and she just didn't feel comfortable doing it.

 

[hydroradi]

good point

The only ladies to land the triple axel with any kind of consistency....Midori Ito and Tonya Harding had an atypical "body type" for a female skater.

Both were relatively short and stocky with unusually strong upper body.

 

[soogar]

I'm not sure how special Midori's and Tonya's bodies were. I think that a lot of the girls can build the upper body strength necessary to do the triple axel but they are probably discouraged from doing so b/c judges don't think that overly muscular bodies are aesthetic. I think that if MK and SC hit the weight room , they too can build the upper body strength they need to do the triple axel.

 

[nthuz]

The quad salchow has a difficulty rating of 6 and a triple axle has a difficulty of 10.

edited to add: It doesn't matter what jump is harder for a particular skater...all the jumps are given a level of difficulty and that's good for the skaters who find those jumps with the higher degree of difficulty easier and too bad for those that like salchows.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

Why the quad Sal and not the Quad toe? Wouldn't a quad toe be easier??

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think it's easier to get faster rotation with the Sal than the toe. The Sal is assisted with the swinging free leg that helps with the lift and rotation of the jump. A Quad Toe would seem like a skater would have to have really good height to do it.

 

[Kateri]

If a 4sal is generally easier, how come most male skaters get a 3A first - e.g. Matt Savoie does a gorgeous 3A, but has no quad.

is it the upper-body strength thing?

k

 

[JonnyCoop]

is it the upper-body strength thing?

k

That I imagine would be more of a LOWER body strength thing, or at least related to it. Seems you would need more spring and/or more height to get the extra revolution in. Either that, or develop the ability to spin faster in the air so you can get it in without the extra height, like skaters we see who pull off triples, but very low ones. Tara Lipinski is a good example -- not much height, but she pulled them off.

 

[Nadine]

Interesting thread...

My $.00:

I would think that they are BOTH very difficult, otherwise we'd have seen many female skaters doing them years ago. Not only that, but both are edge jumps, which require the skater to use pure brute strength (of the thigh muscle) to pull himself/herself up into the air, as opposed to the "toe" jumps (ala lutz, flip, toe) where the skater has the assistance of the toepick to launch himself/herself up into the air.

***Note: as regards upper body & lower body strength, both are needed - need the extremely powerful lower body strength of the thighs to launch oneself up into the air - and also need the upper body strength in order to stop the rotation.***

That said, I'd go with the 4S being a tad more difficult than the 3A.......purely on the basis that the former requires an extra 1/2 revolution........also triple axels have been officially landed (rarely, true) by four women thus far (aka Ito in 1988 @ Nationals, Harding in 1991 @ Nationals, Nakano & Nelidina in 2002 @ SA), whereas the quad salchow has only been officially landed once (Ando in 2002 @ JGPF). Furthermore, there have been more women officially attempting the 3A in competition (aka Onda, Asasda sisters, McCorkell, Nelidina, etc.) than the 4S (Ando; once by Cohen @ 2001 SA). 'nuff said.

Oops, one more thing, wanted to say that I've heard reports (for at least a year now) of Miki Ando attempting the 3A in practice. And that her success rate is around 60%. However, hasn't put it into competition yet. Easily understandable, especially as she has been attempting the 4S for only a couple of seasons now (landed her first unofficial one in the summer of 2002; landed her first "official" one the first time she tried it @ 2002 JGPF). Not to mention those various 3/3s (aka 3Z/3R, 3F/3T, 3T/3T) she has been attempting & landing since the 2002 season as well. Obviously this woman can jump, and has in her arsenal a nuclear bomb full of exotic jumps & exquisite combos, but is deciding on which ones to bring to the table. She keeps switching around (aka one competition she'll land the 4S & 3Z/3R, another competiton she'll land 3Z/3R & 3T/3T). IMHO she needs to decide by next season which ones she'll stay with & exclusively work just on those - my bet is her arsenal will eventually be as follows: open with the 3Z/3R, 4S, 2A (perhaps a 3A), 3F/3T, 3F, 3R, 2A.

***Note: IMHO the reason why Miki's 2A is average in height compared to the rest of her jumps is b/c she's been working on the quick revolutions more than the height. However, the distance covered over the ice is very very good.***

Peace & Love, Nadine ^)

P.S. Have re-watched Miki Ando's FS to Firebird, and despite my carping on her presentation earlier, I've grown to absolutely LOVE IT (no lie)! Then again I am biased. (;^) But what has really blown me away was the monster jumping she displayed on the 3F (noticed it @ Jr. Worlds also) & the 3R! Without a doubt in the same league as Sebestyen, Onda, Slutskaya, & VV.

"People who never try never fall, but they never fly either." - M.F. Thomson

 

[Sk8n Mama]

Definitely depends on the skater. I know when I was skating (many, many moons ago! LOL) I found a triple toe much easier than a double axel. I think there's more to mess up with an axel take off than a sal. Plus, the sal, you've got that free leg coming around to help get the rotation going and the axel much less so. It's probably not much harder to rotate a Q sal than a T ax but a Q sal probably has a better chance of staying straight in the air. Make sense?

 

[curtadams]

I think the fact that in both women's and men's skating the 3X preceeded the 4S by over ten years quite definitevely shows the 4S is much harder. For some skaters it might be easier, of course, but in general it's harder. The only skater who claimed the 4S isn't harder *who could actually land it* was Goebel and he cheats (outrigs) his 4S.

IMO the reason the girls are chasing the 4S is that they want to be in the record books. Ito did the first 3X and the first in Worlds and Oly's, no records there. While Bonaly wasn't given credit for it, she did the same with the 4T (she was denied credit because of mild underotation, which is not being applied to 3/3, 3X, and quad attempts in women's at present).

 

[thvudragon]

The quad salchow has a difficulty rating of 6 and a triple axle has a difficulty of 10.

Huh? Where did you get this number? It seems totally arbitrary to me.

According to the ISU, the quad salchow is harder than a 3axel (as is evident in the CoP). The 3axel is worth 7.5 while a quad slachow is worth 9.5 (in the revised CoP for the upcoming season).

Of course it depends on the skater, but generally, the quad salchow is harder.

TV

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

They are both edge jumps which for me mean they are more difficult than toe-off jumps. Ask skaters this question and you will be surprised that there is no unform answer. Some skaters would rather do a triple lutz than a triple flip, than a triple loop. It dependfs on the skater. enough said.

I agree with the poster that 4 air turns iare more difficult than 3 and1/2.

Joe