Is Rachael Flatt the (emotional) underdog?

[Mrs. P]

I think what is meant by "emotional underdog" is whether she is the underdog to win people's hearts.

Yep, that's right.

This blog post goes along the lines of what I'm thinking about.

They were doing the post-ladies FS press conference (streaming it live on Ice Network), and as is often the case, the majority of the questions were being posed to Our New Champion (Rachael Flatt). But the tone of some of the questions concerned me, and Flatt’s attempts to answer them left me downright troubled on at least one occasion. I cannot remember the exact exchange—if requested, I’ll try to find it in the archives and transcribe it—but the vibe I got came down to this: why don’t you think people like your skating the best?

... I thought I saw at least a glimmer of someone who at the heart of it all is a 17 year old girl who may have heard “the vibe” in even harsher tones: Why don’t people like YOU as much as they should?

Suddenly she sounded like someone on the defense as she gamely tried to explain that she, too, was disappointed that she hadn’t really put herself out there the way she wanted to just yet.

Disappointed?! On the defense??! She just WON! And it was miles from the who-can-fall-the-least mess we’ve so often seen of late. It was seven clean triple jumps, two in combination, with NO downgrades or two-foot landings. It was level 3’s and level 4’s on all the spins, spirals and footwork. It was someone who delivered the goods, and delivered them marvelously, over 11 points above all others.

Yet I got the distinct impression she felt a need to apologize for the way she is, and that upsets me. Explaining yourself when you’ve made technical errors is one thing… explaining why you didn’t bring down the house with your top-ranked performance is something else entirely.

 

[bekalc]

[QUOTE
Rather than lauding an athlete who's so much going on, who's an all around wholesome skater, who's a bit like Shawn Johnson with more AP classes, whose dog is so freaking cute it should be on the Eukanuba championship, whose parents value education over making it in Hollywood, people think it's a nightmare for someone like that to win the OGM?

If she has a SOHL and win, I probably will sob uncontrollably.

]Life prediction:
Miki will finish outside of the top 10 again, retire, move to New Jersey, marry Nicolai, divorce Nicolai, will be mentioned as the girl who did the quad in her eulogy.
Carolina - become Carolina "Sk8ter goil" Kostner on MTV's Jersey Shore.[/QUOTE]

First of all the reason people don't want Rachael to win is because they feel that she lacks artistry. And we feel that other skaters are better, and we'd rather not have the Olympics turn into a crash fest. I'm not sure what the cuteness of Rachael's dog has anything to do with anything. Mao Asada by the way has an adorable dog who has puppies...

Second, everyone has a backstory. People could easily look at Rachael's life and say that Rachael had it easy. Born to two very successful parents who it seems probably didn't have to sacrifice a whole lot for the skating. Not like it seems Mirai has too because I know affording skating has been very hard for her family.

And Rachael certainly hasn't had to endure what Miki Ando has. Do you know Ando's father died when she was like 10 years old. And second those type of comments about Ando and Carolina are really unnecessary. Ando is reported to be one of the nicest skaters around a really sweet person. I've heard that Kostner is a really good person too, who was literally in tears at Europeans about how much she hoped she could skate up to her potential. All of these girls work hard.

Rachael may be the sweetest girl alive. I've got nothing against her personally. But I don't want her to win because I feel her skating lacks a lot of important elements. It lacks the spectacular. And I'd much rather see the people who have the spectacular win than another Olympic splat fest.

 

[aftertherain]

rather than lauding an athlete who's so much going on, who's an all around wholesome skater, who's a bit like shawn johnson with more ap classes, whose dog is so freaking cute it should be on the eukanuba championship, whose parents value education over making it in hollywood, people think it's a nightmare for someone like that to win the ogm?

If she has a sohl and win, i probably will sob uncontrollably.

]life prediction:
Miki will finish outside of the top 10 again, retire, move to new jersey, marry nicolai, divorce nicolai, will be mentioned as the girl who did the quad in her eulogy.
Carolina - become carolina "sk8ter goil" kostner on mtv's jersey shore.

first of all the reason people don't want rachael to win is because they feel that she lacks artistry. And we feel that other skaters are better, and we'd rather not have the olympics turn into a crash fest. I'm not sure what the cuteness of rachael's dog has anything to do with anything. Mao asada by the way has an adorable dog who has puppies...

Second, everyone has a backstory. People could easily look at rachael's life and say that rachael had it easy. Born to two very successful parents who it seems probably didn't have to sacrifice a whole lot for the skating. Not like it seems mirai has too because i know affording skating has been very hard for her family.

And rachael certainly hasn't had to endure what miki ando has. Do you know ando's father died when she was like 10 years old. And second those type of comments about ando and carolina are really unnecessary. Ando is reported to be one of the nicest skaters around a really sweet person. I've heard that kostner is a really good person too, who was literally in tears at europeans about how much she hoped she could skate up to her potential. All of these girls work hard.

Rachael may be the sweetest girl alive. I've got nothing against her personally. But i don't want her to win because i feel her skating lacks a lot of important elements. It lacks the spectacular. And i'd much rather see the people who have the spectacular win than another olympic splat fest.

this.

 

[Mrs. P]

Rachael may be the sweetest girl alive. I've got nothing against her personally. But I don't want her to win because I feel her skating lacks a lot of important elements. It lacks the spectacular. And I'd much rather see the people who have the spectacular win than another Olympic splat fest.

So if Rachel skates a clean 7-triple program with no UR or two-foots but doesn't have the artistry the crowd wants that constitutes an Olympic splat fest? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here?

 

[bekalc]

Rather than lauding an athlete who's so much going on, who's an all around wholesome skater, who's a bit like Shawn Johnson with more AP classes, whose dog is so freaking cute it should be on the Eukanuba championship, whose parents value education over making it in Hollywood, people think it's a nightmare for someone like that to win the OGM?

If she has a SOHL and win, I probably will sob uncontrollably.

]Life prediction:
Miki will finish outside of the top 10 again, retire, move to New Jersey, marry Nicolai, divorce Nicolai, will be mentioned as the girl who did the quad in her eulogy.
Carolina - become Carolina "Sk8ter goil" Kostner on MTV's Jersey Shore.

Who cares how cute Rachael's dog is. Asada has very cute dogs herself. These kind of comments about Miki and Carolina are both very unnecessary. Both are reported to be extremely nice girls. Ando especially is said to be a doll. And really if you want to go with who has the better back story, that would so be Ando. Ando lost her father when she was 10 years old. So if your going to want to talk about what family would deserve it more in terms of who has gone through the most it would certainly be Ando's. And I think Ando wins the who has been through the most in her life too. By quite a long shot.

But in the end what does it have to do with anything? Ando losing her father doesn't make her deserving. Asada having a cute dog and a nice sister doesn't make her deserving. And Rachael having good grades doesn't make her deserving.

I was never a fan of Shawn Johnson because I felt like her gymnastics lacked artistry. Although in her case she had the toughest tricks, something that can not be said about Rachael. This is why I don't want Rachael to win because I think she lacks artistry. Kim/Asada,Ando, Kostner,Rochette are all way more exciting to watch. For Rachael to win it would have to be a splatfest, and that would be horrific/horrible to see...That's my take on things.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can anyone explain to me what is meant by artistry? I frequent modern and classical art museums, modern and classical operas and ballet. What I see in Sports, is the competition to win. Despite the use of music, I do not see artistry in figure skating except for a few male skaters and no lady skaters.

Now tell me what you see and call artistry without comparing skaters.

 

[Mathman]

Pray tell me where it is in the CoP the emotional gets points?

I believe that the only place that “emotion” is rewarded in the CoP point system is in the program component “Performance/Execution.” The judges are supposed to give higher scores to skaters who exhibit the best “physical, emotional, and intellectual (involvement) as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.” Skaters are expected to be “physically committed and sincere in emotion” to get the highest marks in that category.

By the way, people talk about “posture” but the word that is used in the IJS is “carriage.” “Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the core of the body.”

And if that is not enough for the skaters to worry about, in this same component (P&E) skaters are also scored on style and individual personality, and Projection: “The skater (should) radiate energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.”

If the judges think you did all these things exceptionally well, you get an 8.0 in this program component. Go Rachael.

(A little off-topic, but anyway... )

 

[FlattFan]

Who cares how cute Rachael's dog is. Asada has very cute dogs herself. These kind of comments about Miki and Carolina are both very unnecessary. Both are reported to be extremely nice girls. Ando especially is said to be a doll. And really if you want to go with who has the better back story, that would so be Ando. Ando lost her father when she was 10 years old. So if your going to want to talk about what family would deserve it more in terms of who has gone through the most it would certainly be Ando's. And I think Ando wins the who has been through the most in her life too. By quite a long shot.

But in the end what does it have to do with anything? Ando losing her father doesn't make her deserving. Asada having a cute dog and a nice sister doesn't make her deserving. And Rachael having good grades doesn't make her deserving.

I was never a fan of Shawn Johnson because I felt like her gymnastics lacked artistry. Although in her case she had the toughest tricks, something that can not be said about Rachael. This is why I don't want Rachael to win because I think she lacks artistry. Kim/Asada,Ando, Kostner,Rochette are all way more exciting to watch. For Rachael to win it would have to be a splatfest, and that would be horrific/horrible to see...That's my take on things.

You're right that it doesn't matter, but why would someone winning be a nightmare?
I certainly have no nightmare when it comes to the Olympics. It's interesting you pointed out the comments about Ando and Kostner are unnecessary, but is it necessary to add "Rachael winning is a nightmare?" Food for thought.

 

[Mrs. P]

Can anyone explain to me what is meant by artistry? I frequent modern and classical art museums, modern and classical operas and ballet. What I see in Sports, is the competition to win. Despite the use of music, I do not see artistry in figure skating except for a few male skaters and no lady skaters.

Now tell me what you see and call artistry without comparing skaters.

Good question! I feel that term has been thrown around quite a bit especially with some pitting Mirai vs. Rachael as the artist vs. the athlete.

Artistry in skating, I would suppose, is the ability to make your jumps look like they're part of the performance rather than something you have to do to get points. It's the ability to perform to the music and perform it in a way that gets the audience behind you (which in turns gives you momentum you need to complete the sporting aspect of it.)

I'll think more about this.

 

[janetfan]

I believe that the only place that “emotion” is rewarded in the CoP point system is in the program component “Performance/Execution.” The judges are supposed to give higher scores to skaters who exhibit the best “physical, emotional, and intellectual (involvement) as they translate the intent of the music and choreography.” Skaters are expected to be “physically committed and sincere in emotion” to get the highest marks in that category.

By the way, people talk about “posture” but the word that is used in the IJS is “carriage.” “Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the core of the body.”

And if that is not enough for the skaters to worry about, in this same component (P&E) skaters are also scored on style and individual personality, and Projection: “The skater (should) radiate energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.”

If the judges think you did all these things exceptionally well, you get an 8.0 in this program component. )

A good post and a great description of Mirai!

 

[bekalc]

You're right that it doesn't matter, but why would someone winning be a nightmare?
I certainly have no nightmare when it comes to the Olympics. It's interesting you pointed out the comments about Ando and Kostner are unnecessary, but is it necessary to add "Rachael winning is a nightmare?" Food for thought.

Because you are talking about Ando/Kostner's lives outside of skating and are implying they have nothing going for them in their personal lives.

I think that Rachael winning would be a nightmare because I think that there are at least six skaters going into the Olympics that are better than her. I felt the opposite at US Nationals. I'm not a fan of Rachael's skating, but I was glad she won Nationals and went to the Olympics. I was actually rooting for her because I felt Rachael deserved it that Rachael had been the best US skater for the last three years. I like to see the skaters do their best you see.

But when it comes to the Olympics, I feel that Asada, Kim, Ando, Rochette, Kostner, and even Suzuki are all better skaters. They all have good jumps like Rachael, but they all are more spectacular and pleasant to watch. I 'd had to see the Olympics become meltdown city. I'd rather have the people who have been doing the best for the past 4 years, skate their best. And yes I think Suzuki who has a GPF medal has actually accomplished more. It would just be horrific to see all these great skaters implode. And that's why I don't want Rachael to iwn. Its not because I hate Rachael, or wish Rachael poor things in her life. Its because in order for Rachael to win a lot of really good skaters have to put forth very bad performances at the Olympics.

 

[Mrs. P]

But when it comes to the Olympics, I feel that Asada, Kim, Ando, Rochette, Kostner, and even Suzuki are all better skaters. They all have good jumps like Rachael, but they all are more spectacular and pleasant to watch. I 'd had to see the Olympics become meltdown city. I'd rather have the people who have been doing the best for the past 4 years, skate their best. And yes I think Suzuki who has a GPF medal has actually accomplished more. It would just be horrific to see all these great skaters implode. And that's why I don't want Rachael to iwn. Its not because I hate Rachael, or wish Rachael poor things in her life. Its because in order for Rachael to win a lot of really good skaters have to put forth very bad performances at the Olympics.

I see what you're getting at. But if Rachael has the SOHL and some of the others don't, I really don't think Rachael should feel ashamed of what ever she earns. Ideally, of course, you want to win when you beat everyone at their best, but we know that doesn't always happen. At the end of the day the person who wins (or medals) is the person who brings their A game during the compeition. Past results give us indicators (as you pointed out) but we won't know what the deal is until they're out there for the SP.

And the Olympics has a way of surprising people -- maybe Rachael will get on the podium w/o a meltdown.

 

[Mathman]

Can anyone explain to me what is meant by artistry?

I don’t think the word “artistry” appears anywhere in the ISU rules. I think when people use this word they mean things like striking pretty positions and trying to move in time to the music.

I believe that the closest thing to this idea falls under the program component Interpretation. Here the skaters are judged on things like

“Maintaining the style and character of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music: harmony, rhythm, color, texture and form.”

Oh wait, I just spotted this bullet

Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music:: Finesse is the skater’s refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are personal artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the msuic made by the composer and/or the musician.”

So I guess that’s what the ISU is hoping for. Either that or a solid quad combo.

 

[bekalc]

I see what you're getting at. But if Rachael has the SOHL and some of the others don't, I really don't think Rachael should feel ashamed of what ever she earns. Ideally, of course, you want to win when you beat everyone at their best, but we know that doesn't always happen. At the end of the day the person who wins (or medals) is the person who brings their A game during the compeition. Past results give us indicators (as you pointed out) but we won't know what the deal is until they're out there for the SP.

And the Olympics has a way of surprising people -- maybe Rachael will get on the podium w/o a meltdown.

I don't see Rachael getting on the podium without a meltdown. The other girls are better. Especially Asada, Kim, Ando, Rochette, and Kostner. Just in terms of speed, basic skating, and the quality of their jumps. Even if all were to land 5 triples, and Rachael seven if things like GOE and PCS were factored accordingly, those girls really should come on top. In the end of course Rachael shouldn't feel bad if she medals and the others don't. It won't be her fault. But that doesn't mean I have to want it to happen..

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't see Rachael getting on the podium without a meltdown. The other girls are better. Especially Asada, Kim, Ando, Rochette, and Kostner. Just in terms of speed, basic skating, and the quality of their jumps. Even if all were to land 5 triples, and Rachael seven if things like GOE and PCS were factored accordingly, those girls really should come on top. In the end of course Rachael shouldn't feel bad if she medals and the others don't. It won't be her fault. But that doesn't mean I have to want it to happen..

And I'm not asking you to.

But we'll see what happens.

 

[Mathman]

I think what is meant by "emotional underdog" is whether she is the underdog to win people's hearts.

Oh, is that what the question is? Sorry.

OK, in that case, naw, she's fine. Who doesn't love Rachael? Look at all the people who were complaining last year when the judges awarded the national title to Alissa (an immensely popular skater in her own right) unstead of Rachael. She was the U.S. hero of Worlds last year and of Skate America this year.

Rachael just had one piece of bad luck. Mirai snuck in a stole everybody's heart at Nationals. Stuff happens. By the time the Olympics roll around, that will be water long gone under the bridge. Rachael and Mirai will have their picture together on the cover of Sports Illustrated, the stars and stripes fluttering gallantly in the background, and they will be hailed as our one-two punch going off to Vancouver to slay the dragons for turth, justice and the American Way! :yes:

 

[bekalc]

Oh, is that what the question is? Sorry.

OK, in that case, naw, she's fine. Who doesn't love Rachael? Look at all the people who were complaining last year when the judges awarded the national title to Alissa (an immensely popular skater in her own right) unstead of Rachael. She was the U.S. hero of Worlds last year and of Skate America this year.

Rachael just had one piece of bad luck. Mirai snuck in a stole everybody's heart at Nationals. Stuff happens. By the time the Olympics roll around, that will be water long gone under the bridge. Rachael and Mirai will have their picture together on the cover of Sports Illustrated, the stars and stripes fluttering gallantly in the background, and they will be hailed as our one-two punch going off to Vancouver to slay the dragons for turth, justice and the American Way! :yes:

I stuck up for Rachael last year because of the principals of basic fairness, and not because I had some great love for her skating. :lol: I'm not this overt nationalist when it comes to my sports. I like to see the best people win.

 

[FlattFan]

then why bother with any competition? if someone delivers that night, that person should win. no "that skater is so much better, she should win"
I like to see the best of the night win. It's fair, and only fair.

I know Rachael will bring it.

 

[bekalc]

then why bother with any competition? if someone delivers that night, that person should win. no "that skater is so much better, she should win"
I like to see the best of the night win. It's fair, and only fair.

I know Rachael will bring it.

Where did I say the skater who skates the best shouldn't win? What I am saying is that in order for Rachael to be the best that night a lot of girls are going to have to skate poorly. And I'd rather not see Mao or Yu-na two of the best skaters I've ever seen-ever. Both implode. I dont' want to see Ando implode. And I'd love to see Kostner finally skate as well as she can same goes with Rochette it would be heartbreaking to see her implode. I'd hate to see all of these skaters who I really like implode.

I never said I don't want Rachael to skate well at the Olympics, I just don't want everyone else to skate poorly. It would be very hard to watch. There's a difference. Its been hard seeing the last few Olympics become splat fests. Although I didn't mind Shiz winning in 2006 because I liked her better than Sasha or Irina, but I'd have love to seen Shiz win with everyone skating their best...

 

[miki88]

Rachel is definitely an underdog. But I don't think she is one that really capture people's hearts, mostly because her skating is not that beautiful to watch. She needs some refinement to her skating or else it just looks amateur no matter how solid her jumps are. Also, unlike Shawn Johnson, I don't see Rachel having the bubbly and sweet personality (that's more Mirai!). She just seems like an average teenager who works really hard. I guess it's because she is just too "normal" in her skating and personality that she just doesn't stand out.