Jump Errors on Lutz and Flip

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Okay, hear me out.

We all know and are tired of the "full blade take offs", yes. But I'm curious about how the people on this forum would call these two jumps:

Maya Kromykh 3F: https://youtu.be/IWpe9qxSHjU?t=294
Daniel Grassl 4Lz: https://youtu.be/obe_WTRy_aU?t=9557

The skid is actually pretty clear on Kromykh's - she skids when forward on that 3F. With Grassl, I remember there was a GIF last season, but I don't think I can trace it anymore, but even in this video I think it's clear that he's skidding on the picking foot on take off. I am not one to say that "full blade take offs" are "loop jumps", but what would you call them?

Or is this an example of "forward take off" on a jump that is supposed to take off backwards? It's different from when the skating foot turns forward on take off though.

Not an example of cheated takeoff. Lower GOE for poor takeoff.
Still ratified as a 3F and 4Z.

I’d actually give Grassl’s negative GOE because of the poor takeoff and poor air/landing position.

But pre-rotation is not the same as cheated takeoff, as much as some people keep pushing for skaters to be marked down for it.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What I'm saying is that height is a disadvantage when beyond a point (I'm going to say 5'11" and upwards is extremely hard to have proper picking, and 5'8" or less is an advantage), but improper picking strikes even small people like Shoma Uno.

 

[yume]

They don't necessarily have poor picking technique but most of tall ladies struggle with URs (Tsurskaya, Sotskova, Konstantinova, Tennell, Hongo, etc.). I wonder what makes Kostner rotate better. She doesn't have the "serial under-rotator" reputation. I don't recall a season during which she often got UR calls.

 

[Skatesocs]

I wonder what makes Kostner rotate better.

Interestingly, if you listen to some of the earlier commentary on her, they always note that she used to go into her jumps with a ton of speed, and jumped with low height but good distance.

As she became older though, she started to lose speed going into her jumps to control them more (you can note this in her Bolero performance at Sochi), but jumped with more height than she used to in her earlier days.

 

[Tolstoj]

Loop was his first triple (and first quad in practice I think). He just transferred the same technique between the jumps (A bit like how I can't tell Morisi Kvitelashvilli's salchow and toe apart in real time. (Especially at Universiade 2019 FP)

Kvitelashvili 4sal and 4toe are the same for me as well, the toe pick is non existent, which is interesting cause he also never does the lutz and his flip isn't great either (although better than the 4t), basically all toe jumps.

 

[kwanatic]

Interestingly, if you listen to some of the earlier commentary on her, they always note that she used to go into her jumps with a ton of speed, and jumped with low height but good distance.

As she became older though, she started to lose speed going into her jumps to control them more (you can note this in her Bolero performance at Sochi), but jumped with more height than she used to in her earlier days.

Agreed. Kostner always had such great speed going in and though she didn't jump super high she always had great ice coverage/distance and ride-out on her jumps. For a lot of ladies, jumping high and far usually equals out of control jumps. You'd see that with Kaetlyn Osmond sometimes--she was such a powerful jumper she'd over-jump sometimes.

A lesser known great jumper was Agnes Zawadski (USA). She didn't have a huge impact internationally but she always stood out as a fabulous jumper and technician. She was tall by skating standards (5'6"/5'7") but had great technique (very straight in the air) and great speed and power in her jumps. She just lacked consistency.

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Agnes Zawadzki 2012 US Nationals short program

3rd overall with 174.10 - San Jose / USA (January 2012)

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To me the best jumps have a decent amount of height but are more about the distance/lateral movement across the ice. I hate jumps that go up and come down about a foot from where they take off. The most impressive impactful jumps move across the ice and have speed on the landing.