Men free skate

[Fashionista]

I am not sure I understand your comment.

I certainly agree that Asada and Kim are the best lady skaters in the world under 19 years of age.

I do not think that Junior Worlds proved this. In fact, I am sure that it did not, since they did not compete.

Well, it's easy. If they came to these Junior Worlds they would definitely win it. They could have been the best juniors (and they actually are) in the world and they are the best lady skaters in the world. I don't see the reason why can't they do both if they are sooo hugely talented in their age.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't think Rippon skated this season as a Junior at all, except Junior Worlds. He skated quite well in CoR (Senior GP), not so well in SA, and I also think he is to be regarded as a Senior already. What I wanted to point out is that it is not he to be blamed but the rules, and I agree with you that the age of Juniors should be lower than 19/21. I would rather suggest, though, that the end of Junior status is the date of the 18th birthday, as I think with 16 no boy is competitive with Senior men, and I don't think that two years without a chance to compete internationally makes sense.

There were several excellent Junior Men in that competition who had never skated Senior, to my knowledge. I just think it would have been more correct to announce a Junior Champion who never skated senior. Why is that so difficult for some to think the same way? Let's have all the Senior Men have a go a Junior Men. Is that correct? Especially in the International Senior GP Series.
BTW. I am also big time fan of Rippon since 2006. I'm not blaming him. He did not make the LA team, so he just took advantage of the ISU regulations. Not the way that Kozuka did.

btw, I've never known rippon to execute a 3A until he went to Orser.

 

[chuckm]

The ISU will never institute a rule barring Seniors from competing as Juniors, because all the small federations who have just one elite skater to send to all the competitions (and there are plenty of them) would never agree to such a rule.

It's a dead argument. Give it up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The ISU will never institute a rule barring Seniors from competing as Juniors, because all the small federations who have just one elite skater to send to all the competitions (and there are plenty of them) would never agree to such a rule.

It's a dead argument. Give it up.

Does that mean Belgium and Switzerland as well as Andorra would vote against a clearer distinction between a Junior Skater and a Senior Skater? I wonder.

Can't help but think there is something askew with a Junior medalist in one year and repeating Junior again, especially if they have skated Senior GPs.

Isn't the Novice rule to move out once you place in a championship? but I think Novice in other countries have their own regulations.

 

[chuckm]

At the Congress, it's one federation, one vote. That's why a rule restricting skaters from competing at one level because they skated at a higher level will never pass. It would handicap too many of the smaller federations with just one competitive skater.

It should also be pretty obvious that the ISU is well aware that many people attend JW Championships because they have come to see some of those well-known skaters. A competition with all B- and C-level skaters wouldn't sell many tickets.

 

[Mathman]

It should also be pretty obvious that the ISU is well aware that many people attend JW Championships because they have come to see some of those well-known skaters. A competition with all B- and C-level skaters wouldn't sell many tickets.

I wonder if attendance figures have been released yet for this competition. It was certainly priced right (25 euros for all-event pass.)

At the Congress, it's one federation, one vote. That's why a rule restricting skaters from competing at one level because they skated at a higher level will never pass. It would handicap too many of the smaller federations with just one competitive skater.

It seems like it could cut both ways. A small federation might have not have any skater who is competitive at the elite senior level.

But they might have a junior who would have a chance to medal in a competiton against other real juniors, but no chance in a "junior" contest that featured returning seniors like, say, Chan and Kozuka..

 

[viv]

...btw, I've never known rippon to execute a 3A until he went to Orser.

He did, in CoR, one in his SP and one in his LP, both with the second leg down but, as far as I remember, fully rotated. I think he also did one in SA.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

He did, in CoR, one in his SP and one in his LP, both with the second leg down but, as far as I remember, fully rotated. I think he also did one in SA.

so a two foot landiing is ok with you. You must have loved Baiul.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

IIt seems like it could cut both ways. A small federation might have not have any skater who is competitive at the elite senior level.

But they might have a junior who would have a chance to medal in a competiton against other real juniors, but no chance in a "junior" contest that featured returning seniors like, say, Chan and Kozuka..

I don't get that either. I would think a small federation would love to prohibit the seniors from the juniors.

 

[viv]

so a two foot landiing is ok with you. You must have loved Baiul.

Well, it's the rotation that makes a 3A a 3A. If it's done fully rotated, it gets the basic scores for the 3A, with deductions for the second leg down. If it's underrotated with a clean landing it is downgraded to a 2A, so in that case not a 3A. The 3A in CoR was not downgraded, so fact is that he did it there, no matter if the twofooted landing is o.k. for me or not.

 

[Medusa]

Well, it's the rotation that makes a 3A a 3A. If it's done fully rotated, it gets the basic scores for the 3A, with deductions for the second leg down. If it's underrotated with a clean landing it is downgraded to a 2A, so in that case not a 3A. The 3A in CoR was not downgraded, so fact is that he did it there, no matter if the twofooted landing is o.k. for me or not.

Well, you get the points but you are not really credited with landing the jump. Weir had several fully rotated but two-footed quads in his career and people keep saying that he never landed a quad in competition. Same goes for new tricks: let's say someone goes for the quad lutz, but steps out of the jump - that skater wouldn't be the first one to be credited with landing a quad lutz by the ISU, because it wasn't clean.

 

[chuckm]

In his career, Buttle often went for a quad in his FS and regularly fell on it. Yet he referred to it as "my quad", and fans talked about "Jeff's quad". He got credit for rotating it, but never for landing it.

There are many jumps landed on two feet, and the skater gets credit for that jump (with -GOE, of course). But two-footing is no worse than turning out or falling out of a jump, or landing awkwardly. It's just not a clean jump.

I think it is fair to say that if a skater rotates a jump completely and lands it, he/she still has that jump, even if the takeoff or landing had a flaw.

 

[antmanb]

Well, you get the points but you are not really credited with landing the jump. Weir had several fully rotated but two-footed quads in his career and people keep saying that he never landed a quad in competition. Same goes for new tricks: let's say someone goes for the quad lutz, but steps out of the jump - that skater wouldn't be the first one to be credited with landing a quad lutz by the ISU, because it wasn't clean.

Well the ISU didn't have any problem crediting Browning with the first quad even though it had a double three turn on the landing. Turning out of the landing on jumps is a flaw that usually means you've over-rotated the jump and would nowadays result in a -GOE, probably just a -1 but still. For the record I don't think Browning should have gotten credit for that jump especially since others had landed quads with a very light touch down of the free leg which, for me, was the same "seriousness" of flaw.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, it's the rotation that makes a 3A a 3A. If it's done fully rotated, it gets the basic scores for the 3A, with deductions for the second leg down. If it's underrotated with a clean landing it is downgraded to a 2A, so in that case not a 3A. The 3A in CoR was not downgraded, so fact is that he did it there, no matter if the twofooted landing is o.k. for me or not.

Thanks viv, I can understand where you are coming from. Take-off and landings are not important. Just jump up any way that is easy for you, rotate 3 turns, and Fall. That's all one needs. No?

 

[Mathman]

For some reason two-footing the landing was regarded as a terrible error under 6.0 judging, but just a minor one under CoP.

Dick Button always used to point out, "well, that jump won't count because it was two-footed."

But on a wild-swinging, staggering out of control, almost hand down landing, it was, "wow, he sure fought for that landing. Good for him!"

 

[chuckm]

I think if someone attempted a fully-rotated quad lutz and landed it two-footed, it would be ratified as a quad lutz with a deduction for the two-foot.

CoP is quite different from 6.0 in that respect.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For some reason two-footing the landing was regarded as a terrible error under 6.0 judging,

I think that was dependent on who was judging.

btw. Can we make this sport any easier?

 

[museksk8r]

btw. Can we make this sport any easier?

Oh, come on . . . why would you want to give people one less thing to b!tch about? What would the conspiracy theorists do with their days?

 

[Mathman]

btw. Can we make this sport any easier?

Well, we could make it easier by doing away with the penalty for double footing the landing.

We could make it easier by doing away with the penalty for stepping out of the landing.

We could make it easier by doing away with the penalty for wrong-edge take-offs,

We could make it easier by doing away with the penalty for underrotations.

So, yes, there are a lot of ways to make the sport easier. But the ISU thinks that these errors should be penalized in the scoring, and so do I.

 

[viv]

Thanks viv, I can understand where you are coming from. Take-off and landings are not important. Just jump up any way that is easy for you, rotate 3 turns, and Fall. That's all one needs. No?

No. I never said that, and as there was no possible way of misinterpreting what I said I will not repeat it, but if you want to let your bad mood out on me, just go for it - I'm living at the other side of the globe anyway.

:sheesh:

I