Music and its source material

[karne]

Karne, not to pick at a scab... but what bothered you the most? The costumes or the interpretation?

Everything. The appalling costumes. The clunking movements. The dragging-by-her-hair. They looked like a pair of absolute idiots and it was grotesque.

well, they were favourite for gold coming in as world champions.

Um, whoop-de-frigging-doo? They still won an Olympic medal. That is not a repercussion!

I think that the athletes were misguided but how much of an input did they have in selecting that program? seriously, i hated the program but instead of hating the athletes i felt sorry for them.

Blind dumb Freddie could see how that program was offensive. They should have said "no, this is stupid, we're not skating to this." When the actual composer of the music says "the actual heck, no, this is disgusting, take my music out" maybe that should be a signal to everyone involved to back the hell down.

what a wrong choice from their team.... in Canada.. really?

The program didn't mock your country's Indigenous people. It mocked ours.

 

[TontoK]

well, they were favourite for gold coming in as world champions.

I think that the athletes were misguided but how much of an input did they have in selecting that program? seriously, i hated the program but instead of hating the athletes i felt sorry for them. what a wrong choice from their team.... in Canada.. really?

Unless they were children, they should have had a lot to say about the program. Even with the Russian fed at that time, I can't imagine they had absolutely no say in the musical choice or program development.

 

[4everchan]

^^ as if Canada doesn't have issues with how native nations are/were treated.. did you read my post? for years, there has been a reconciliation movement... it's especially a huge deal in BC as I am not sure you know but natives were PERMANENTLY INSTALLED /LIVING on the entire land where Vancouver was founded.... the Musqueam nation has for instance "donated their land" so that the University could be built.. ... it's a huge huge huge topic in Canada... why are you dismissive and rolling eyes?

this dance was a scandal for many Canadians... we didn't want it to be even presented.... don't you remember? where were you?

I wish you would understand this as it would make it better if all countries were unified on such issues... colonization is NOT an Australian only issue... it's very important in Canada... i don't get why you have to roll your eyes at this...it's a global issue... not a local one.

 

[4everchan]

Unless they were children, they should have had a lot to say about the program. Even with the Russian fed at that time, I can't imagine they had absolutely no say in the musical choice or program development.

well... i think that like some others, they didn't understand what i meant for others... including Canadians.... the athletes I have met are mostly one track minded.... training... and they don't always have a global perspective. I think many people were at fault here.. not just the athletes.

 

[karne]

^^ as if Canada doesn't have issues with how native nations are/were treated.. did you read my post? for years, there has been a reconciliation movement... it's especially a huge deal in BC as I am not sure you know but natives were PERMANENTLY INSTALLED /LIVING on the entire land where Vancouver was founded.... the Musqueam nation has for instance "donated their land" so that the University could be built.. ... it's a huge huge huge topic in Canada... why are you dismissive and rolling eyes?

this dance was a scandal for many Canadians... we didn't want it to be even presented.... don't you remember? where were you?

I wish you would understand this as it would make it better if all countries were unified on such issues... colonization is NOT an Australian only issue... it's very important in Canada... i don't get why you have to roll your eyes at this...it's a global issue... not a local one.

Did I say Canada didn't have these issues? No, but it doesn't take a frigging genius to look at those costumes and come to the conclusion which Indigenous culture was being mocked, and it wasn't Canada's.

You're right that it is a GLOBAL issue...which made your "in Canada...really?" remark all the more insulting, as if it would have been perfectly okay if it had been any other country...

 

[4everchan]

Did I say Canada didn't have these issues? No, but it doesn't take a frigging genius to look at those costumes and come to the conclusion which Indigenous culture was being mocked, and it wasn't Canada's.

You're right that it is a GLOBAL issue...which made your "in Canada...really?" remark all the more insulting, as if it would have been perfectly okay if it had been any other country...

you are altering my words and thoughts. never mind.

 

[el henry]

^^ as if Canada doesn't have issues with how native nations are/were treated.. did you read my post? for years, there has been a reconciliation movement... it's especially a huge deal in BC as I am not sure you know but natives were PERMANENTLY INSTALLED /LIVING on the entire land where Vancouver was founded.... the Musqueam nation has for instance "donated their land" so that the University could be built.. ... it's a huge huge huge topic in Canada... why are you dismissive and rolling eyes?

this dance was a scandal for many Canadians... we didn't want it to be even presented.... don't you remember? where were you?

I wish you would understand this as it would make it better if all countries were unified on such issues... colonization is NOT an Australian only issue... it's very important in Canada... i don't get why you have to roll your eyes at this...it's a global issue... not a local one.

I think I understand what Karne is saying. Americans will try to understand, reconcile, do what is right ... I don't have the right words ... for Native Americans. Canada, with the First Nations. That is global.

But this abominable program was not global. It was a mockery of the indigenous peoples of Australia. And although Americans and Canadians can say we understand the issue, and should feel revulsion at it, we cannot presume to understand how Australians would feel. Or that it was somehow worse that it was skated in North America because we have had our own issues. :noshake:

Athletes may not be the only ones to blame, but they don't get off the hook. They skated that horror show, and they were full grown adults. No excuses :noshake:

 

[4everchan]

^^ all i will say to this... is that even if the program was obviously linked to Australian nations, many Canadians took it as an offense to their own native tribes. You guys need to learn about the history of Vancouver and BC and realize that it's not just any Canadian/North American city when it comes to the relationship with aboriginals. I am very disappointed in the replies given to me, when we are all agreeing it was atrocious... because I added the factor that it was not just an Australian issue but a global issue...
this is exactly why nothing gets ever solved... people are too self-focused.

 

[karne]

^^ all i will say to this... is that even if the program was obviously linked to Australian nations, many Canadians took it as an offense to their own native tribes. You guys need to learn about the history of Vancouver and BC and realize that it's not just any Canadian/North American city when it comes to the relationship with aboriginals. I am very disappointed in the replies given to me, when we are all agreeing it was atrocious... because I added the factor that it was not just an Australian issue but a global issue...
this is exactly why nothing gets ever solved... people are too self-focused.

You acted like the abhorrence of the Canadian crowd was sufficient "repercussions". And then you said "...in Canada...really?" as if it would have been perfectly okay if it had been skated anywhere else. If anyone is being self-focused in this thread, it is you.

 

[Barb]

At least they (Domnina / Shabalin) apologized for that abomination?

 

[karne]

At least they (Domnina / Shabalin) apologized for that abomination?

Did they? I don't recall them doing so. If they did, it was quiet, low-key, and after the fact, and not what should have happened.

 

[4everchan]

here is an article that expresses what I am trying to say better. It includes leaders from Vancouver first nations comments.

to back up my comment about Canada as a host, and specifically Vancouver

The 2010 Games are the first to have full involvement of native groups. The Four Host First Nations - the Lil'wat, Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh bands, in whose traditional territory the Olympics are being held - are recognized by VANOC as partners in the Olympics.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

It's not either/or. It can be a global issue that many people in many nations may recognize, but it can also resonate uniquely to a specific culture at the same time, especially if that's the culture that is being portrayed. El Henry's post summarized the point perfectly.

 

[bevybean]

No I don't think skaters should feel obligated to re-enact the story from source material.

I'm interested in the other point in your original post. Is it OK for non-Asians to skate to Miss Saigon? Or similar examples. I don't see why not.

Of course, I don't think racial elements should enter into the arts at all... with some exceptions made for historical accuracy.

For example, I think it would be odd for a white man to portray Martin Luther King. Or a black man to portray Budda. And, of course, Othello shouldn't be a Nordic looking man, considering the storyline... although didn't Olivier play Othello?ha. Or an Asian woman to portray Martha Washington. But then there is theatrical make-up,...

But, in terms of pure theater (and that includes skating), most anything should go. I don't think it would be odd for a white skater to include excerpts from MLK's "I have a dream" speech. I wouldn't like it, because I don't like voiceovers... but that doesn't mean it would be wrong.

I agree. And you make a good point about using some discernment and good judgement in terms the choices in order to remain respectful of the source material. I was thinking it might even be okay if the skater isn't at all familiar with the source material, but I changed my mind last night. Your Othello example is great. Seeing that one of the Korean ladies is skating to "Papa Can You Hear Me?" reminded me of Kanako Murakami skating to it at Sochi. While I think it is fine that she did and fine that she didn't necessarily go with playing a character or enacting the story from the movie, the cross on her costume was just plain wrong. I remember thinking at the time that her PCS should get dinged for that one. I'm not saying she needed to put a Star of David there, but a cross...really?

I was also thinking that there are some songs that have taken on a life of their own apart from the source material. Example: "All That Jazz" I would bet there are a lot of people who have forgotten that it originally came from a musical. To an extent "Mac the Knife" is the same way. It even has some rather gruesome lyrics, but was such a standard for Frank Sinatra and his ilk, that people often don't realize what it is about. (And yes, he was a serial killer)

 

[bevybean]

I think I understand what Karne is saying. Americans will try to understand, reconcile, do what is right ... I don't have the right words ... for Native Americans. Canada, with the First Nations. That is global.

But this abominable program was not global. It was a mockery of the indigenous peoples of Australia. And although Americans and Canadians can say we understand the issue, and should feel revulsion at it, we cannot presume to understand how Australians would feel. Or that it was somehow worse that it was skated in North America because we have had our own issues. :noshake:

Athletes may not be the only ones to blame, but they don't get off the hook. They skated that horror show, and they were full grown adults. No excuses :noshake:

All true. BUT it is appropriate for the rest of the world to feel revulsion on behalf of Australians -- especially ones who have been enlightened regarding their own country's history of mistreating their own indigenous people. Just like as a white person I can never understand what it is like for a black person to be on the receiving end of discrimination. But I would certainly stand up for them if I witnessed the discrimination happening. (Because I try to be an enlightened person, not because America has this issue down pat or anything.)

 

[gkelly]

Seeing that one of the Korean ladies is skating to "Papa Can You Hear Me?" reminded me of Kanako Murakami skating to it at Sochi. While I think it is fine that she did and fine that she didn't necessarily go with playing a character or enacting the story from the movie, the cross on her costume was just plain wrong. I remember thinking at the time that her PCS should get dinged for that one.

But now you're more well-informed and understand that there's no criterion in the PCS for costume appropriateness.
(The only penalty for costumes are deductions for not meeting the rules, e.g., not covering enough of the upper body.)

Of course judges as well as fans may have a "What were they thinking??" reaction to costumes or choreographic choices that are completely at odds with the source material of the music. But ultimately what's being judged under Interpretation is how well the skating movement matches the rhythm and character of the music as music, regardless of where that music came from.

And under the Composition component, whether there is a "purpose" to the movement, to the arrangement of the program. But no requirement that the skater's purpose must match the composer's purpose.

In any case, nothing about costumes. Which may or may not give a clue to what the skater's purpose is. And it's perfectly legal and not that uncommon for skaters to perform this year's program in last year's costume, or in a practice outfit, or a costume borrowed from another skater if their own was lost in transit, etc.

Judges and fans can have strong opinions about what costumes they like or dislike, what's appropriate or inappropriate, but that's not part of the scoring.

To an extent "Mac the Knife" is the same way. It even has some rather gruesome lyrics, but was such a standard for Frank Sinatra and his ilk, that people often don't realize what it is about. (And yes, he was a serial killer)

MacHeath/Mack the Knife isn't a serial killer, he's a criminal boss/gangster.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2155/whats-the-story-behind-mack-the-knife

The body count might be similar, but the motivation is different.

 

[bevybean]

But now you're more well-informed and understand that there's no criterion in the PCS for costume appropriateness.
(The only penalty for costumes are deductions for not meeting the rules, e.g., not covering enough of the upper body.)

Of course judges as well as fans may have a "What were they thinking??" reaction to costumes or choreographic choices that are completely at odds with the source material of the music. But ultimately what's being judged under Interpretation is how well the skating movement matches the rhythm and character of the music as music, regardless of where that music came from.

And under the Composition component, whether there is a "purpose" to the movement, to the arrangement of the program. But no

In any case, nothing about costumes. Which may or may not give a clue to what the skater's purpose is. And it's perfectly legal and not that uncommon for skaters to perform this year's program in last year's costume, or in a practice outfit, or a costume borrowed from another skater if their own was lost in transit, etc.

Judges and fans can have strong opinions about what costumes they like or dislike, what's appropriate or inappropriate, but that's not part of the scoring.



MacHeath/Mack the Knife isn't a serial killer, he's a criminal boss/gangster.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2155/whats-the-story-behind-mack-the-knife

The body count might be similar, but the motivation is different.

Thank you gkelly for the clarity. I wasn't actually sure how much costumes were considered in judging --though oddly enough I knew they re-used or borrowed costumes.

And thanks for the correct about Mac the Knife. I especially appreciated the section in bold.

 

[Ender]

I have no issue with skaters trying to portray some roles on the ice. I don't like literal performance but it doesn't kill. And of course, skating without a plot or a character is not that easy for audience to appreciate either.
There will always be someone who might just ask: "what's the purpose of that move? Why is she just skating around? Why she lift her chin that way it looks weird..."

 

[TontoK]

I have no issue with skaters trying to portray some roles on the ice. I don't like literal performance but it doesn't kill. And of course, skating without a plot or a character is not that easy for audience to appreciate either.
There will always be someone who might just ask: "what's the purpose of that move? Why is she just skating around? Why she lift her chin that way it looks weird..."

Riverdance didn't have a plot, although I learned later that Jason and team invented a story to help him with the characterization. That was fine, but I view that as more of a training aid than anything. What is important is that the program was good in its own right, without some convoluted storyline to prop it up.

Like I said, I'm not looking for a re-enactment, and I certainly don't like needing a plot summary to understand the program.

 

[Alex D]

Art is always what it means to everyone individually. There is no "one way" for performances, it´s about how you feel and experience it.

Because of this, a skater might interpret a piece of music differently to the original creator, differently to the fan in row 12...