Watching Skate America, I didn’t see one lady with a beautiful layback leg position or traditional layback, eg and ie: Sasha Cohen, Why don’t ANY of them do it anymore. I so miss the gorgeous laybacks of years ago and detest the profusion of doglegs. The points requirements do not mean they don’t have time to include a real layback. A Bielmann isn’t a layback even though the points code includes it as such.I find ladies skating boring as the artistic side is being demolished by the emphasis on quads and combination triples. Also why do the commentators refer to the technical score as only being jumps? Improving the tech score involves more technically difficult spins and footwork , not just jumps. How can skaters be shown that they don’t have to sacrifice beauty for points as both are possible. I am almost not interested in ladies skating anymore due to the emphasis on multi revolution jumps that have MUCH MORE to do with GYMNASTIC ability and extremely slender body type than figure skating and deep edges and blade control. Being able to do multiple revolutions airborne has nothing to do with skating ability. The sport has given over totally to self selection by body type for gymnastics. Any ideas or thoughts welcome!
No more laybacks?
- Thread starter Skate88
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I would recommend watching Karen Chen for the classic laybacks.
Most people refer to the jumps when talking about technical score because they make up most of the points. Blade control and edges are mostly seen in the step sequence but it's worth a lot less points, especially when PCS is being marked as if it's linked to jump content. A 3Lz in the first half has a base value of 5.90, a StSq4 has a base value of 3.90 and there are 10 jumping passes over 2 programs, whereas there are only 2 step sequences.
I would agree with you that there's not enough emphasis on blade work in the scoring BUT there are even less people who truly understand the intricacies of difficult blade work than there are people who understand the technicalities of the jumps. So until there's more resources out there explaining how step sequence levels are scored, I don't think we should move away from the current format.
Most people refer to the jumps when talking about technical score because they make up most of the points. Blade control and edges are mostly seen in the step sequence but it's worth a lot less points, especially when PCS is being marked as if it's linked to jump content. A 3Lz in the first half has a base value of 5.90, a StSq4 has a base value of 3.90 and there are 10 jumping passes over 2 programs, whereas there are only 2 step sequences.
I would agree with you that there's not enough emphasis on blade work in the scoring BUT there are even less people who truly understand the intricacies of difficult blade work than there are people who understand the technicalities of the jumps. So until there's more resources out there explaining how step sequence levels are scored, I don't think we should move away from the current format.
I think the point is that a layback into Biellman is not a classic layback. The ubiquity of the Biellman position is one of the worst aspects of the IJS.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
unfortunately the judging system prevents a good old regular layback. if you want the points you have to go for a level 4. However i think there are skaters that do a level four really beautifully like Karen Chen. i am more a fan of a classic biellman and not the hyperextended ones. Karen also has a gorgeous classic layback position.
Another example of a superb level 4 layback is Alissa Czisny. IMO nobody did it better than her- every position was just perfect and she kept if not gained speed throughout the entire spin.
Another example of a superb level 4 layback is Alissa Czisny. IMO nobody did it better than her- every position was just perfect and she kept if not gained speed throughout the entire spin.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
I agree 100%. I also believe that a Biellman Spin has a higher base value which is why they became so much more frequent. Irina Slutskaya never had a great layback but, she had that Biellman and she used it to the hilt.
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- Jul 9, 2014
100% true. Angela Nikodinov also a beautiful and very classic Layback.
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Sideways leaning spins are gross and should be valued lower than an actual layback which is way harder to keep balance and is aesthetically more pleasing. Or they should call them lazybacks because that’s what they are. 
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- Apr 10, 2019
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- Mar 14, 2007
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I agree. It is terrible. I’ve even heard people suggest ladies don’t even train spins or footwork or anything other than jumps because they aren’t worth enough points to bother with.
The only thing that will ever fix this is a judging change. Ladies is by far my least favorite discipline atm. For the most part they’re skating from jump to jump and it’s boring.
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Yes but how many years ago was that??
The IJS was supposed to fix the fact that spins really weren't valued in the 6.0 system. Spins now do have a point value and there is an incentive to maximize the levels, but I have noticed that most spins get positive GOEs--the slow ones and the fast ones, the centered and the traveling, are all scored the same.
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- Mar 14, 2007
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There’s really not much of an incentive to maximize their levels. I’ve even heard it suggested skaters don’t bother to do them. The problem with the current system is that if a lady has quads, spins and step sequences aren’t required for her to win. I saw some terrible spins at Worlds. Since more men have quads it’s somewhat more as more men have quads.
Slutskaya never had a true Bielmann, as she grabbed her wrist, not holding the blade in both hands, and she never got the blade directly over her head, only behind it. In today's scoring, she wouldn't get the Bielmann feature as the blade must be above the skater's head.
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- Jun 26, 2012
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I don't know about the Bielmann feature in today's scoring (I'm not that much of an expert) but I do know I always watched Slutskaya's Bielmanns to both sides with great pleasure. Sorry 
Back to classic laybacks without automatically turning it into a Bielmann..
Back to classic laybacks without automatically turning it into a Bielmann..
Most women during 6.0 did not have a “beautiful, classic” layback position either. People love to compare the best of yesteryear (Sasha, Angela, etc) with the average of today. In the lower levels (novice and below) which all skaters must pass through, spins make up for a larger percentage of the total score, so there is more of an incentive for skaters to work on spin levels and GOE as they are coming up the ranks.
I would be interested to know if judges really are applying the goe criteria properly to spins, and if not, how that can be improved.
I would be interested to know if judges really are applying the goe criteria properly to spins, and if not, how that can be improved.
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- Sep 8, 2016
I am so confused by the base value of spins. The rulebook is so wordy that I can hardly understand why certain positions are worth more points than others. Like, I see yelim doing a sit spin or a combination spin in the short, and when the little box on the screen says "sit spin 4" I get that she received level 4, but why is it not...... ya know what, I actually don't even know how to phrase my questions! However, it is very tedious to see such similarities in spins. And no scratch spins, no beautiful free leg (just immediately into the haircutter) and forceful beilmanns that can look rough if the skater struggles with such a flexible position.
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- Mar 26, 2014
I think that if Wakaba could do Bielman she would do it. She just can't. Liza finally started to do a one hand Bielman after years of plain haircutters. I wonder what she had to overcome to get there. Well, her motivation to get to the Olympics is just astonishing.
