OD Results

[dorispulaski]

Shibutanis now behind by 2.2. Perhaps they will catch up in the FD tomorrow.

http://www.isufs.org/results/jgpesp2008/SEG006.HTM

1 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS 54.21 30.99 23.22 6.13 6.00 6.13 6.19 6.13 0.00 #14
2 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA 53.22 30.31 22.91 6.03 5.91 6.09 6.03 6.09 0.00 #20
3 Anastasia VYKHODTSEVA / Alexei SHUMSKI UKR 46.88 26.07 20.81 5.44 5.41 5.53 5.47 5.53 0.00 #18
4 Rachel TIBBETTS / Collin BRUBAKER USA 44.90 23.81 21.09 5.56 5.41 5.53 5.66 5.59 0.00 #13
5 Angelina TELEGINA / Viktor ADONIEV RUS 43.46 24.31 19.15 5.09 4.94 5.03 5.03 5.09 0.00 #16
6 Alexandra PAUL / Jason CHEPERDAK CAN 41.89 23.06 19.83 5.34 5.19 5.13 5.28 5.16 1.00 #19
7 Emese LASZLO / Mate FEJES HUN 40.73 23.90 16.83 4.50 4.28 4.53 4.41 4.44 0.00 #12
8 Xenia CHEPIZHKO / Sergei SHEVCHENKO UKR 40.41 23.21 17.20 4.53 4.34 4.53 4.72 4.56 0.00 #17
9 Catherine ST. ONGE / Alexander BROWN CAN 40.22 22.09 18.13 4.81 4.63 4.75 4.75 4.88 0.00 #11
10 Nikki GEORGIADIS / Graham HOCKLEY GRE 37.30 21.64 15.66 4.25 3.94 4.25 4.16 4.06 0.00 #7
11 Aela ROYER / Benjamin LEZE FRA 37.02 20.51 16.51 4.41 4.19 4.31 4.50 4.34 0.00 #15
12 Sonja PAULI / Tobias EISENBAUER AUT 36.45 22.09 14.36 3.88 3.56 3.84 3.88 3.78 0.00 #6
13 Justyna PLUTOWSKA / Dawid PIETRZYNSKI POL 36.21 21.12 15.09 4.00 3.78 4.00 4.06 4.03 0.00 #4
14 Juliane HASLINGER / Tom FINKE GER 35.77 21.61 14.16 3.84 3.56 3.81 3.81 3.66 0.00 #3
15 Lora SEMOVA / Dimitar LICHEV BUL 34.76 21.28 13.48 3.75 3.31 3.53 3.69 3.50 0.00 #2
16 Alissandra ARONOW / Aleksandr PIROGOV LTU 34.14 20.26 13.88 3.75 3.47 3.69 3.66 3.69 0.00 #10
17 Federica TESTA / Andrea MALNATI ITA 33.05 19.01 14.04 3.72 3.53 3.72 3.81 3.72 0.00 #8
18 Jekaterina SERGEJEVA / Andrejs SITIKS LAT 29.52 17.38 12.14 3.13 3.00 3.31 3.34 3.25 0.00 #9
19 Aleksandra FRIDRIKH / Sergei PLISHKIN BLR 29.12 17.25 11.87 3.19 2.91 3.13 3.25 3.16 0.00 #5
20 Emili ARM / Rodion BOGDANOV EST 24.76 14.67 10.09 2.66 2.47 2.72 2.81 2.66 0.00 #1

Standings after OD:
1 Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS 86.49 1 1
2 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI USA 84.26 2 2
3 Anastasia VYKHODTSEVA / Alexei SHUMSKI UKR 76.42 4 3
4 Rachel TIBBETTS / Collin BRUBAKER USA 74.46 3 4
5 Angelina TELEGINA / Viktor ADONIEV RUS 71.66 6 5
6 Alexandra PAUL / Jason CHEPERDAK CAN 70.49 5 6
7 Catherine ST. ONGE / Alexander BROWN CAN 67.50 7 9
8 Xenia CHEPIZHKO / Sergei SHEVCHENKO UKR 65.82 8 8
9 Emese LASZLO / Mate FEJES HUN 65.48 9 7
10 Aela ROYER / Benjamin LEZE FRA 61.51 10 11
11 Nikki GEORGIADIS / Graham HOCKLEY GRE 61.23 11 10
12 Justyna PLUTOWSKA / Dawid PIETRZYNSKI POL 59.80 12 13
13 Sonja PAULI / Tobias EISENBAUER AUT 59.49 13 12
14 Juliane HASLINGER / Tom FINKE GER 58.60 14 14
15 Lora SEMOVA / Dimitar LICHEV BUL 56.42 15 15
16 Alissandra ARONOW / Aleksandr PIROGOV LTU 54.64 17 16
17 Federica TESTA / Andrea MALNATI ITA 54.55 16 17
18 Aleksandra FRIDRIKH / Sergei PLISHKIN BLR 48.29 19 19
19 Jekaterina SERGEJEVA / Andrejs SITIKS LAT 47.03 20 18
20 Emili ARM / Rodion BOGDANOV EST 39.39 21 20
WD Sara HURTADO / Adria DIAZ ESP 18

 

[Vincero]

I guess this is more of a case of Riazanova/Guerreiro performing really well. If my memory serves me right, their OD score is higher than the Hubbells'. The Shibutanis have already improved by a lot (more than +5 increase from Courchevel after the CD and OD). I think they still have a chance of catching up if their FD shows the same improvement as the other two dances. Go Alex and Maia!

 

[chuckm]

This judging panel was heavily weighted on the Eastern European side: 3 former SSRs (RUS, UKR, LAT) plus BUL, POL and HUN. Those judges tend to give high PCS scores and big +GOE to Russian and Eastern European teams than what they give to other teams. And this year, R/G is the only outstanding Russian team out there.

So I wouldn't go overboard with comparisons to the results of other competitions.

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, but the size mismatch of the Shibutanis gives judges a reason to lower their PCS especially,but also marginally, their GOE's.

The Shibutanis had my favorite of the FD's I've seen. I hope they really skate it beautifully. AFAIR, not all their elements were level 4 at Courchevel, so they have room to improve the score, definitely.

R&G AFAIR, had a fall in the FD and also a fall in the OD, and still finished second in Merano. Obviously, they could certainly be expected to score much better in an event where they didn't fall.

Also R&G are not the only eastern European team to have a good result so far this year-Zenkova & Sinitsin (RUS) finished 3rd at Mexico City. & Antipova & Kudishev finished 2nd at Ostrava. Furthermore Agafanova & Dun (UKR) and Pushkash & Kiselev (RUS) are very likely to finish 1/2 at Belarus and be fighting it out with Chock&Zuerlein and Tibbetts and Brubaker at Sheffield. There is a good chance one, if not both, of Agafanova & Dun and Pushkash & Kiselev will make the JGPF.

 

[Vincero]

Yes, but the size mismatch of the Shibutanis gives judges a reason to lower their PCS especially,but also marginally, their GOE's.

The Shibutanis had my favorite of the FD's I've seen. I hope they really skate it beautifully. AFAIR, not all their elements were level 4 at Courchevel, so they have room to improve the score, definitely.

I did notice that they have the lowest PCs out of the winning American teams up till now. I haven't seen any programs except for theirs and Chock/Zuerlein's, but I think their good speed and flow should be enough to compensate for their size mismatch. I do hope that their PCs will rise as they gain more international exposure.

 

[dorispulaski]

I do too. I have watched this team since they showed up to win Junior Nationals on Nancy Kerrigan's CN8 show. They have great panache!

 

[oleada]

I wouldn't say that there's a conspiracy, either.
The Shibutanis are a lovely, lovely team that I enjoy a lot, but Doris is right - their size difference does make a (negative) impact. And I don't think 2.2 points is an unbridgeable gap.

Riazanova and Guerreiro, when they are on, are a very, very fun team to watch. Obviously, they skated poorly in Merano and finished second there. They went to the JGPF last year. I wouldn't say it would be shocking if they won.

 

[chuckm]

I don't think there's a conspiracy, I just think a panel so heavily weighted (6-4) with Eastern European judges is naturally going to prefer the Russian dancers. Yes, there are other Russian and Ukrainian teams that could possibly make the JGPF, but R/G is clearly THE standout team and almost certainly a JGPF medalist, so the judges have rewarded them enthusiastically in Madrid.

That is not to take away from them at all---they are excellent dancers---but as I said in my earlier post, don't draw conclusions from comparing scores across competitions. R/G will not face the Hubbells until the JGPF. I just hope there are no more shenanigans at the JGPF as there were last year and that the panel will be more equitably drawn.

 

[dorispulaski]

But I wouldn't stand out in the rain waiting for an equitable panel of judges to be drawn. This is after all, ice dancing.

As Mishin said in a recent interview:

http://saint-petersburg.ru/m/221030/

Comments from Aleksei Mishin:
translated M. Diffley

About ice dance medals for Russia in the Vancouver Olympics:

“I have rather sharp judgment about this skating discipline. Ice dance is surely attractive, highly costumed and pleasing to the eye, but due to the unclear criteria for marks that has always been evident in the judging, ice dance does not have a right to be part of the Olympic Games. Therefore, talking about the chances of athletes in dance to gain a medal is stupid. For example, I like the tango, and you prefer foxtrots and how do we judge the athletes? The entire history of ice dance tells the story of how the work of the judging brigade determines who becomes champion far more than the athletes’ professional mastery.”

I love it anyway

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is a difference between Conspiracy which btw, wasn't mentioned, and ethnic favoritism. which I gather was the interjection. Apparently, there is also stature as part of prejudice too.

 

[chuckm]

So it appears Mishin and I are on the same page. He is perfectly well aware of how "the system" works.

Last year, the judging at the JGPF was a travesty. The Canadians Crone/Poirier and Riazanova/Guerreiro (yes, this year's darlings) got dumped so as to finagle the standings for other teams in payment for judges' scoring the top two Russian teams sky-high. Apparently a private riot act was read, and at Junior Worlds a more balanced judging panel rendered a different result.

 

[Vincero]

There is a difference between Conspiracy which btw, wasn't mentioned, and ethnic favoritism. which I gather was the interjection. Apparently, there is also stature as part of prejudice too.

Yes, I don't think a conspiracy was mentioned anywhere in this thread...

I don't think it's really an actual "prejudice" against stature, as the (presumably) lowered PCs aren't directly caused by stature, but by the fact that it is impossible to achieve lines as good as couples who are similar in height. For example, although I think that the Shibutanis have very good line, they won't be able to do kicks that go to the exact same height a la Chock/Zuerlein. As the PCs are partly about aesthetics, it is a legitimate reason to give lower marks to a couple whose line is not as good as another, regardless of reason. However, I do think that as the PCs also include speed and flow, which I think the Shibutanis are very good at, and this should compensate for their height difference.

As for the subjectivity in ice-dancing, my take on it is that as all elements are based on levels, it isn't that hard for teams to max-out on possible difficulty marks, compared to the other disciplines with jumps and throws that can't really be "maxed". Because of this, the base scores of the competitors are closer, and thus it relies more on GOEs and PCs to determine the rankings. Of course, these two are more subjective than difficulty scores, which I think accounts for the subjectivity in ice-dancing. (As a side note, I don't think the PCs system work very well. I think it is impossible for judges to seriously consider each category under the PCs carefully in such a short amount of time, let alone all the elements in just one category, e.g. multi-directional skating and edges under skating skills. Therefore, I think judges pretty much just assign the same score for all categories. This may be why the final results in close contests can see unfair, which is especially true for a discipline as reliant on PCs as ice dancing.)

 

[oleada]

Apparently, there is also stature as part of prejudice too.

I wouldn't say it's prejudice because of stature, I'd say is that their height difference doesn't allow them to perform dance holds as close as other teams.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I wouldn't say it's prejudice because of stature, I'd say is that their height difference doesn't allow them to perform dance holds as close as other teams.

I realize that, but then should someone tell them to quit dance competition and skate Pairs or even drop out of skating because their legs are not long enough?

 

[chuckm]

They are a brother and sister. How much closer SHOULD they hold one another?

 

[dorispulaski]

Perhaps, Joe, the sport will become different because of them. They are, AFAIR, only just eligible this year for Juniors, and they are doing a heck of a job to win one JGP and finish first or second in this one. If they do that, then they will qualify for the JGPF ... in their first season. Maia & Alexander will have 4 or 5 more years of eligibility at the junior level. Very few couples start with just a bang!

They are an outstanding team and wonderful performers & dancers already, even though their appearance is not traditional. Already there is some acceptance of height difference due to Delobel and Schoenfelder, who have more difference than is usual. Perhaps Maia & Alex will push things along more!

Meanwhile, Maia may grow a bit (after all, she's just 14), and with luck Alex won't grow any more and will, like Olivier, develop the ability to get so deep down in his knee bend that the height difference is minimized (I probably didn't say that quite correctly...)

 

[dancemaster]

i found a few photos but no videos yet
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30885660@N05/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aberouch/2892187474/

 

[dancemaster]

Last year, the judging at the JGPF was a travesty. The Canadians Crone/Poirier and Riazanova/Guerreiro (yes, this year's darlings) got dumped so as to finagle the standings for other teams in payment for judges' scoring the top two Russian teams sky-high. Apparently a private riot act was read, and at Junior Worlds a more balanced judging panel rendered a different result.

we will never known ,
If it was a more balance panel or the bad luck of the top Russian team having two major falls
As for the result in the final grand prix.
Chock/Zuerlein coach had a bigger part to play for the bad showing of the S/B and C/P results then any other country or person

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

we will never known ,
If it was a more balance panel or the bad luck of the top Russian team having two major falls
As for the result in the final grand prix.
Chock/Zuerlein coach had a bigger part to play for the bad showing of the S/B and C/P results then any other country or person

Why not say, 'we will never know' if it was the coach or not? Opinions are opinions.

 

[sigrid]

Hi! this is my first post here, and I wanted to tell you a bit of the JGP in Madrid, I was a volunteer there.

In my opinion the russian victory was well deserved, they made good programs, and the Free Dance was just amazing :agree:

Shibutanis had a good competition too, but in the Free Dance Alex had a little mistake.

I didn't see bad judging in this GP, the results were quite fair.


BTW recording was not allowed, so I think it'll be difficult finding vids. I only made one of a Murakami's jump in the Ex. And a friend made one in the Ex too, but no more

But if you want to know something I can answer you, I saw the whole competition (except the Men's SP, I just saw the 1st group) and a lot of trainings