OGM - Who's within reach of it?

[cianni]

Olm

Mathman, what happened to the one who skates the best that night at that time Wins. I didnt realize the winner was percieved to be the best. I thought it was the one who was the best.There is a difference in my world as to what is percieved and what is. Maybe thats the problem with skating, perception is the winner not what is the best is the winner. I also thought the purpose of the COP was to pay attention to details and reward them accordingly. I agree thats the way it is and thats the demise of skating because the fans, causal fans and the Media no longer accept OH thats just the way it is. Sorry to say I do disagree on one point. IT is cheating when the percieved best wins and the best doesnt on that night.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe that's the problem with skating, perception is the winner not what is the best is the winner.

Yes, I think that's the whole problem right there. In a judged sport, the only thing that counts is the judges' perceptions. This was quite blatant under ordinal judging. If you could convince 5 judges out of 9 to vote for you, you won.

Under the CoP this is perhaps obscured a little. The purpose of the CoP was to side-step scandals like what happened in Salt Lake City. The ISU thinks that secret judging will head off outbursts in the media and among fans. Maybe so, but perhaps at a worse cost -- the cost of people deciding that they just don't care.

However, "in spite of everything I believe that people are really good at heart" (Anne Frank). I have to admit that in most contests I think the judges do a yeoman's job of juggling all the plusses and minuses of a dozen performances or more and of ending up with a fair and justifiable ranking. I know when I try to judge along with the judges, far from thinking someone was robbed, I find myself saying after every performance, "Wow, that was good, too!!"

Mathman

 

[chuckm]

The reality is skaters like Carolina Kostner cannot win the OGM. Even if Carolina put together two dynamite programs with TWO 3/3/3s in her FS, as long as Irina skates two good programs, the OGM is hers because Irina's PCS scores will assure that she is ahead.

The difference between ordinals and PCS scores is that SP ordinals end with the SP. If a skater had a terrific SP and finished first with nine 6.0s, that would not necessarily affect the final outcome. If the same skater had a less than perfect performance and finished 4th in the FS, the big numbers in the SP would not prevent the #2 or #3 skater in the SP from winning based on FS performance.

Under CoP, high PCS scores in the SP are carried over to the overall. A two-point edge in the SP based on PCS plus even a 1-point PCS edge in the FS could secure a gold medal even if the FS was seriously flawed technically. So Irina's high PCS scores (which seem to be independent of performance) can keep her on top even if someone else outskates her in both SP and FS.

So that "reputation" edge is far more powerful under CoP than it was under 6.0.

 

[cianni]

Ogm

Yes Chukm now were talking Reality. I also think Irina is slated for Oly Gold just as you stated. It will be legal as thats how its set up.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If you believe winning the Olys also brings forth the BEST SKATER, then Sarah Hughes is the reigning BEST SKATER in the World - more than any other female skater. Also Alexi Yagudin, the dance team I can't remember, and I'm not sure about the Pairs are the best in their Divisions and no male or team is better. hmmm.

As to the CoP being the perfect answer for judging figure skating, I am my usual self when I say I am skeptical(sp). There are ways for a judge to pump up the scores for his favorite even without him realizing it. It seems to me that many judges getting carried away with an 'awesome' Technical skater tends to hold up that 'awesome' technical skater with high but undeserved PCS scores..

I'm a member of the "WuzRobbed Club" and Kevin van der Perren wuzrobbed! (among others).

Joe

 

[cianni]

Ogm

Joesitz, I dont believe the best skater in the World wins OLY Gold. I am saying I want the best Skate on that night to win the OGM. I dont think Sarah is the best skater in the World now or ever was. Sarah skated a good program on that night and so she got the Oly Gold. I am saying COP is set up in a way to make it easy for the judges to hand pick their winner and I think that is going to be a blow skating cant afford. I agree about the awesome tech skater being given awesome PCS that are not deserved. Thats your hand picked skater.

 

[Jaana]

Joesitz, I dont believe the best skater in the World wins OLY Gold. /QUOTE]

I agree with this totally. Besides, neither do I believe that the best skater in the world wins the Worlds gold. In both competitions the skater wins that happens to best in that particular competition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

cianni -

A little help would be two sets of judges - one for the Tech and one for the PCS.

It wouldn't be perfect but it could cut down on the subliminal scoring of PCS for a favorite skater. I believe the judges are confusing the GOE scores and the PCS scores. A well executed triple lutz combo does not necessarily mean the skater had a good program.

Joe

 

[cianni]

Ogm

I agree Joesitz and thats why it wont happen. COP is set up to hand pick the winner and not get caught. I wish it wasnt so but thats what it looks like to me. If judges are confusing how to score the OCS and GEO scores then we are in trouble and thats not acceptable they should have been taught properly before using the new pretend system. Speedy is no fool and he knows exactly what he was doing. Speedy reminds me of an old saying ,there are those who are so busy trying to fool others they make a fool of themselves. I think that sums up Speedy in all he does.

 

[chuckm]

I agree that dividing judges into technical and PCS scorers could help stop a lot of the current abuses. What SHOULD happen is that judges wouldn't know which category (technical or PCS) they were scoring until just before the event started. That would eliminate most opportunities for collusion.

If judging was done that way, there would be no reason for random selection and protecting judges' identities since a total skater judge score wouldn't come from one judge. High and low scores for each component would be thrown out and the other scores averaged.

But I agree the ISU would never go along with such a scheme because it could effectively prevent the judges from pre-determining an event.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Good post Chuckum. It's not just a collusion preventive. It is also a better judging system. IMO, too many judges are confusing GOE and PCS.

Joe

 

[slutskayafan21]

What will kill a teenager's shot at the OGM are the outrageously high PCS scores given to skaters like Irina and Sasha. Irina's PCS scores were over the top even for a very sloppy SP. Kostner skated a clean SP but was placed behind others because of her low PCS scores.

The judges have probably already zeroed in on the range of PCS scores for each of the top skaters, and I don't think you're going to see big numbers for skaters like Kostner, Phaneuf and Meissner. When a skater goes into a competition with a 1-2 point PCS deficit, it's going to be pretty hard to win, even with a terrific FS.

I am sorry but a skater like Meissner would not warrant program component scores anywhere near the best skaters. Her skating is all about jumps right now.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Skaters who have a shot at gold:

Pairs-Totmianina/Marinin, Shen/Zhou, Pang/Tong, and Petrova/Tikhonov all have some chance of gold. Zhang/Zhang, Obertas/Sokolov, both have a shot at a medal but not gold

Men-Lambiel, Plushenko, and Joubert all have a chance of gold. Buttle, Weir,
Sandhu, all have a chance at a medal but not gold. Lysacek, Goebel, and Lindemann have no chance of a medal IMO.

Dance-Navka/Kostomarov, Delobel/Schoenfeldner, and Grushina/Goncharov all are threats for the gold. Dubreuil/Lauzon, Chait/Shaknovsky, and Denkoyva/Stayvinski have medal hopes but not gold,

Ladies-most wide open. Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen, Fontana, Arakawa, could all win it all if things go their way. Sokolova, Ando, Rochette, Onda, Volchkova, Suguri, could all have chances of a medal, not gold though.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

SlustskayaFan - With all those possibilities you listed for each category, I have to agree with you that some of them will win gold. But don't you think the lists are obvious? If Evgeni don't win then Brian or Stephane will. Not exactly brilliant in predicting. And worse, it might be Stefan (just to keep it in Europe).

Oh well, we'll come back to this next April.

Joe

 

[purplecat]

Ladies-most wide open. Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen, Fontana, Arakawa, could all win it all if things go their way. Sokolova, Ando, Rochette, Onda, Volchkova, Suguri, could all have chances of a medal, not gold though.

Fontana? You don't mean Silivia Fontana who is a pro do you? Perhaps you meant Kostner? Since I don't see her on your list, I'm guessing that's what you meant.

 

[Mathman]

About judging, you could look at it this way. Any judging system is fair as long as it treats all skaters the same and as long as all skaters know what's going on.

If it is really true that the judges use the PCS either to hold up the most famous skaters or doubly to award the big tech elements, then it is clear what the competitors have to do. Michelle must take on the Grand Prix series, blow eveyone away in two events plus the GP final. Then she, too (along with Irina) will get 8.5s and 9.0s for her PCS at Torino.

Caroline Kostner, the same thing. She will have six months to covince the international judges that her skating deserves 8.5s instead of 6.5s.

No rest for the weary between now and February.

Mathman

 

[cianni]

Ogm

Mathman, Are you saying the judges treat all the skaters the same? Boy you could have fooled me. I find myself scratching my head just wondering how did that skater get those marks? What was I looking at? I dont know so many dont see it that way. If the judges treat all skaters the same then we can all be quite cause theres something wrong with us. Good grief can you believe I found myself mistrusting those judges. Bad Girl.

 

[Fossi]

IMO those judges at Worlds did no favors for Irina and Sasha with those high PCS scores compared to the others. This will only give them a false sense of where they're at and what improvements need to be made. Look at what happened to Irina after Worlds '01 and SLC. She was overmarked all season long and then when given fair marks she cried foul.

 

[slutskayafan21]

SlustskayaFan - With all those possibilities you listed for each category, I have to agree with you that some of them will win gold. But don't you think the lists are obvious? If Evgeni don't win then Brian or Stephane will. Not exactly brilliant in predicting. And worse, it might be Stefan (just to keep it in Europe).

Oh well, we'll come back to this next April.

Joe

Well we are supposed to list the skaters we feel have a chance of gold right? So arent the lists supposed to be obvious.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Fontana? You don't mean Silivia Fontana who is a pro do you? Perhaps you meant Kostner? Since I don't see her on your list, I'm guessing that's what you meant.

That is right, I meant Kostner.