Oksana Baiul 90's Skater
- Thread starter Lillehammer 94
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
dizzydi:
I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a former skater and "armchair expert" at first I found this forum a little strange and at times overwhelming.
It's sort of reminded me of listening to a group of the boys discussing Hockey Night in Canada - arguing over who is the best player or who should have won the game, etc.
Least of all, I never expected to find myself contribtuting on a regular basis. I have been in and around figure skating all my life and never had occasion to really discuss much with anyone - except maybe my family. So to see so much interest here in figure skating really struck me! I just kept "Peeking" in out of curiosity to see what the next topic would be. Anyway, I have hung around here at GS for quite sometime. Most of the banter is interesting, but occasionaly, I have read the odd "zinger." Oh well, we do get passionate about skating don't we? That's what makes it so much fun.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a former skater and "armchair expert" at first I found this forum a little strange and at times overwhelming.
It's sort of reminded me of listening to a group of the boys discussing Hockey Night in Canada - arguing over who is the best player or who should have won the game, etc.
Least of all, I never expected to find myself contribtuting on a regular basis. I have been in and around figure skating all my life and never had occasion to really discuss much with anyone - except maybe my family. So to see so much interest here in figure skating really struck me! I just kept "Peeking" in out of curiosity to see what the next topic would be. Anyway, I have hung around here at GS for quite sometime. Most of the banter is interesting, but occasionaly, I have read the odd "zinger." Oh well, we do get passionate about skating don't we? That's what makes it so much fun.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Some highlights from Oksana's pro career-- Meditation, the Nutcracker, Arabian, the Sleepwalker pas de deux she performed with Brian Boitano, the schoolgirl, the Flower, Safe From Harm, All That Jazz, You'll See. Oksana didn't always land all her jumps, but this is an impressive body of work and she deserves credit for it, especially when you consider the fact that she created many of these programs herself. Among skating fans, there seems to be a tendency to dismiss the skaters' professional careers because the events are "cheesefests" or because the skaters aren't landing endless triple jumps. But many skaters have done outstanding work as professionals-- Scott Hamilton, the Brians, Kurt Browning, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Torvill & Dean, Yuka Sato, Kristi Yamaguchi, Katarina Witt, and Toller Cranston come to mind. This level of excitement and creativity is missing in eligible skating, especially now that Alexei Yagudin has turned pro.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
Re: Re: Kat and Oksana
It is true that Witt had a very flashy style of choreography (in '88 her exhibition was to Michael Jackson's "Bad") and that her actual skating was not on the level of say, Michelle Kwan. Some said of Witt the same that was said of Sasha Cohen before moving to Tarasova -- that she was all style, no substance. But the ability to do it when it counts is crucial in any sport. Janet Lynn was a brilliant "skater's skater" but she was not able to translate her abilities into success in international competition. Kat represents to opposite end of the spectrum -- not as talented, but she KNEW HOW TO WIN.
I've also always thought that if there was one ladies' skater the USFSA wished it could have claimed as one of their own, it was Katarina.
Yes, conventional widom holds that Witt was only an average skater, but possibly the finest competitor ladies skating has ever seen. Never was this more on display than at 1987 Worlds. During the warmup, Kat kept falling on her 3loop in front of the judges. Yet in her free skate, she nailed it perfectly, again right in front of the judges. Because Debi Thomas two-footed her loop (the only mistake in an otherwise superb program), this arguably was the deciding factor. Several skating insiders often said that you would watch Kat in practice and think "she's not very good." But come competition time, it was a whole other story.Joesitz said:
It is true that Witt had a very flashy style of choreography (in '88 her exhibition was to Michael Jackson's "Bad") and that her actual skating was not on the level of say, Michelle Kwan. Some said of Witt the same that was said of Sasha Cohen before moving to Tarasova -- that she was all style, no substance. But the ability to do it when it counts is crucial in any sport. Janet Lynn was a brilliant "skater's skater" but she was not able to translate her abilities into success in international competition. Kat represents to opposite end of the spectrum -- not as talented, but she KNEW HOW TO WIN.
I've also always thought that if there was one ladies' skater the USFSA wished it could have claimed as one of their own, it was Katarina.
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- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
From the book "Stars On Ice" : "Kain, meanwhile was too busy going after Lillehammer talent. His primary target was Katarina, who only a few years earlier was a centerpiece in the only tour that really ever challenged Stars On Ice."
Yes, today Katarina Witt would be considered now in the Winter season of her entire skating career, nevertheless what I meant by gravitas, when pointing to Katarina, is that she simply is one skater you can count on. You purchase a ticket for an ice show and you can be 99% per cent sure that Katarina will be there. She may not skate a brilliant program or even a program to your individual taste, however you can be assured that Katarina will deliver to the best of her ability.
When I saw Katarina skate earlier this year on the SOI tour in Milwaukee it was solidified in my mind that Katarina was by now a skating legend. Katarina skated to Barbra Streisand's "What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?" and I thought it to be a beautiful, haunting program.
Yes, today Katarina Witt would be considered now in the Winter season of her entire skating career, nevertheless what I meant by gravitas, when pointing to Katarina, is that she simply is one skater you can count on. You purchase a ticket for an ice show and you can be 99% per cent sure that Katarina will be there. She may not skate a brilliant program or even a program to your individual taste, however you can be assured that Katarina will deliver to the best of her ability.
When I saw Katarina skate earlier this year on the SOI tour in Milwaukee it was solidified in my mind that Katarina was by now a skating legend. Katarina skated to Barbra Streisand's "What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?" and I thought it to be a beautiful, haunting program.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The notable differences between these skaters and Oksana is that they all maintained or improved their technical skills. The jumps are the most obvious elements and Oksana did not do well with jumping after turning pro.
I don't expect a 7 triple program from the pro's, but minimum seems to be 4 in most pro competitions. Oksana had problems acheiving 4 clean jumps in a program and this made watching her nerve wracking. I also found her emotional state to be distrubing - her desire for applause seemed desperate.
I realize that she had a very difficult time. It was too much success and glamor for a young girl alone in the world to handle. Unfortunately, the general skating viewer was unaware of her problems and simply saw a decline in her skating - giving more credence to Nancy deserving to win.
I'm very pleased that she is happy now and was able to ground herself. The attitude change showed in her Hallmark Mother's Day appearance. This 2nd 'coming' is her chance to erase the turbulent 90's.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I for one have never been a huge fan of Katarina's professional career. But, I will agree with Lillehammer94 and say that she was a lock for nearly every pro competition in the 90s. That speaks volumes about her commitment to the sport. I thought her amateur career was much more interesting. She stole the show for me in 1984...I really don't see how that was a 5/4 split. She skated far better than Rosalynn in my opinion. And her "Carmen" in 1988, though not technically brilliant, was skated with such passionate intensity. I haven't seen her "West Side Story" from 87 Worlds, but it sounds like I definitely need to look into that.
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2003
It was a great event. Kat, Debi and bronze medalist Caryn Kadavy all had fantastic performances.BronzeisGolden said:
I remember that in her 1984 free skate, Kat did a 2lutz/3toe, which was considered very difficult at the time. I have also heard unconfirmed reports that she landed a 3flip back in 1981 Worlds. If so, I wonder why she stopped attempting this jump? Throughout most of the 80s, the 3loop was her hardest jump.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I think all skaters become complacent after a while, particularly in the Show Life. What's the point of keeping up the tech side when the sequins are enough. A few jumps; a few spins; a nice choeography works wonders in the auditorium. It's not like the competitive life where technical skills need to be maintained and still grow if possible. Aging too, takes its toll.
Katerina has had a full career and she keeps going.
Joe
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2003
Ogre Mage said:
Thank you Ogre Mage for mentioning Caryn Kadavy IMHO she was could have won the LP if she didn't double her last triple and singled her axle. Her performance was on fire, includeing ina boure into triple loop-half loop-double toe sequence that is do die for. She just had those little, little, minor mistakes of doubleing her last triple. Debi was awesome I just didn't like her green dress, it is not the cut of the dress, I think it flatters her but I just didn't like green on her I think blue would have been a better choice. I prefered her 86' dress. Debi had good spins and a lovely layback. She also had great footwork and hard jump enterences. She has a LOT of power, but double footed her triple loop. Katerina looked so young and she skated her butt off, she also skated directly after debi and was the final skater. I'll never forget how she sprinted though her footwork(including her famous high kicks) and landed the last double axel and ended with a forward scrach spin that was to die for. I liked Kat cuz she was sassy.
Katerina's jumps were:
triple toe-double toe
triple sal
double axel
triple loop-THE glamour jump back in '87, nailed in front of judges
triple sal-half loop-double flip
triple toe
double axel
yup, just call me wittsisqueen88!! I can live with that!
ETA: does anyone know the music edits Karen and debi used? I know Karen has some maleguana I don't know what else she used. thanks in advance.
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- Joined
- Sep 24, 2003
strange music cut
The Debi Thomas music cut, if that is what she chose, sounds strange. But, I remember reading from Rudi Galindo's book, that he and Kristi once skated to Gone with the Wind and In The Mood for the long program. The 80's music cuts were really something else.
The Debi Thomas music cut, if that is what she chose, sounds strange. But, I remember reading from Rudi Galindo's book, that he and Kristi once skated to Gone with the Wind and In The Mood for the long program. The 80's music cuts were really something else.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
I miss the young, innocent Oksana... the programs she's done in recent years are either extremely dark or just don't flow... I'm hoping that this year will be a turning point for Oksana.... which by the looks of things it is... GO OKSANA!
Beautiful thread, Z, thanks for starting it (no lie)... 
Ah, the memories.......just seems like yesterday that I saw Oksana skate for the first time at the 1993 World Championships.......and how my heart cried out to her when she was standing on the podium with tears running down her face (& Verne Lundquist mentioning how she was an orphan et al). But what captivated me more than all else was the way she skated, her expression, her soul ~ laid bare for all to see.
The above makes me think of Brandon Lee (son of Bruce Lee).......friend of my brother's back in the late 70's......they used to hang out together (no lie). Anyhow, I remember when he passed someone somewhere mentioned how it is the quality, not the quantity of life that counts. It might have even been Brandon that said this (in connection with his father's short life). Something about would you rather have lived to be 100 but never gone anywhere or never really did anything with your life? Or would you rather live to be 28 and have packed a lifetime into those few short years? For me, it would be the latter.
How the above makes me reflect on Oksana is in terms of quality of skating......she may have only shone a short time on the eligible scene........but I would honestly rather have had that brief quality of time than to never had it at all, especially in comparison to a hypothetical skater that could skate forever on the eligible circuit but have never once touched my soul. JMHO.
***Note: the following is a short quote taken from a poster named yogurstslinger over on FSW a few yrs. back, which has always stayed with me because it reminds me of Moulya ~ "The sun has to be acknowledged by virtue of its constancy - its steady position high in the sky. But the blazing comet that lasts only a short time is something quite valuable & amazing as well. In the future when both the sun & the comet become only memories, I think people will recall them with equal vibrancy & accord them both important positions in history."***
By the way, Jen
)), love the list of innovative & creative programs that you mentioned of Oksana's. ITA. But would like to add one that seems I'm the only person that has ever liked........think it was way before its time.......Desert Rose. No lie, loved everything about it, especially when I saw it in person for the first time during the Fall of 2000. She amazes me with all the chances/risks she used to take with her choreography, knowing full well the insults/laughter/narrow-mindedness she would encounter. That took guts. And I, for one, truly appreciated it. In fact, I hear tell that her second number that season was so controversial, which is why NBC refused to show it at World Pros that year. Hmmm...
***Note: in a way I miss the old Oksana, but love the new one as well - hopefully she doesn't feel like she can't express herself on the ice b/c it makes some feel uncomfortable (which IMHO has to do w/the viewer, not the performer) - acceptance is the key to understanding. JMHO.***
Peace & Love, Nadine
"When I am old & in my rocking chair, I don't want to open my book and say to my children or my grandchildren 'Okay, I have this World Championship medal from 1993, and I have this Olympic Gold medal from 1994, end of story.' Of course I'm proud of those achievements, but I want to open my book and say...I was a Swan, I was a Butterfly, I was a Flower." - Oksana Baiul
Ah, the memories.......just seems like yesterday that I saw Oksana skate for the first time at the 1993 World Championships.......and how my heart cried out to her when she was standing on the podium with tears running down her face (& Verne Lundquist mentioning how she was an orphan et al). But what captivated me more than all else was the way she skated, her expression, her soul ~ laid bare for all to see.
The above makes me think of Brandon Lee (son of Bruce Lee).......friend of my brother's back in the late 70's......they used to hang out together (no lie). Anyhow, I remember when he passed someone somewhere mentioned how it is the quality, not the quantity of life that counts. It might have even been Brandon that said this (in connection with his father's short life). Something about would you rather have lived to be 100 but never gone anywhere or never really did anything with your life? Or would you rather live to be 28 and have packed a lifetime into those few short years? For me, it would be the latter.
How the above makes me reflect on Oksana is in terms of quality of skating......she may have only shone a short time on the eligible scene........but I would honestly rather have had that brief quality of time than to never had it at all, especially in comparison to a hypothetical skater that could skate forever on the eligible circuit but have never once touched my soul. JMHO.
***Note: the following is a short quote taken from a poster named yogurstslinger over on FSW a few yrs. back, which has always stayed with me because it reminds me of Moulya ~ "The sun has to be acknowledged by virtue of its constancy - its steady position high in the sky. But the blazing comet that lasts only a short time is something quite valuable & amazing as well. In the future when both the sun & the comet become only memories, I think people will recall them with equal vibrancy & accord them both important positions in history."***
By the way, Jen
)), love the list of innovative & creative programs that you mentioned of Oksana's. ITA. But would like to add one that seems I'm the only person that has ever liked........think it was way before its time.......Desert Rose. No lie, loved everything about it, especially when I saw it in person for the first time during the Fall of 2000. She amazes me with all the chances/risks she used to take with her choreography, knowing full well the insults/laughter/narrow-mindedness she would encounter. That took guts. And I, for one, truly appreciated it. In fact, I hear tell that her second number that season was so controversial, which is why NBC refused to show it at World Pros that year. Hmmm...***Note: in a way I miss the old Oksana, but love the new one as well - hopefully she doesn't feel like she can't express herself on the ice b/c it makes some feel uncomfortable (which IMHO has to do w/the viewer, not the performer) - acceptance is the key to understanding. JMHO.***
Peace & Love, Nadine
"When I am old & in my rocking chair, I don't want to open my book and say to my children or my grandchildren 'Okay, I have this World Championship medal from 1993, and I have this Olympic Gold medal from 1994, end of story.' Of course I'm proud of those achievements, but I want to open my book and say...I was a Swan, I was a Butterfly, I was a Flower." - Oksana Baiul
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2003
Thanks Nadine. So nice to hear from you again! Looks like Oksana Baiul is certainly regaining her fine form again if you caught the recent telecast of Ice Wars X. Happy Holidays Nadine!
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Hi Nadine,
Yes, I did like "Desert Rose." The Oksana programs I named earlier were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. I think I forgot "Enigma" too.
Hi Z,
I loved "Ice Wars." Lots of outstanding programs, not just Oksana's. I wish I could have seen that World Team comp in Vancouver. But the only TV network that carried it was Oxygen and I don't know anybody whose cable system carries that channel.
Yes, I did like "Desert Rose." The Oksana programs I named earlier were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. I think I forgot "Enigma" too.
Hi Z,
I loved "Ice Wars." Lots of outstanding programs, not just Oksana's. I wish I could have seen that World Team comp in Vancouver. But the only TV network that carried it was Oxygen and I don't know anybody whose cable system carries that channel.
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
Love Oksana Baiul and I agree her presence was perfection on ice. A ballarina in every sense of the word. We had never seen another able to move to perfection like her before, and have yet to seen one after her. Oksana's 94 exhibition number to "The Swan" is still the single most beautiful work of art ever IMO.
But I'm not sure how Sarah Hughes could ever remind me of Oksana. No the same musicality, not the same liquid-like arms, not the same fluidity of movement.
But I'm not sure how Sarah Hughes could ever remind me of Oksana. No the same musicality, not the same liquid-like arms, not the same fluidity of movement.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Everyone loves Oksana but that doesn't forgive her sloppy jump endings. She two foots jumps, imo, more than any othr skater. But there is still artistry there. I would just like her to work on cleaning up those jumps.
Joe
Joe
