Olympic Standings If Everyone Skates Their Very Best?

[Blades of Passion]

How am I a Yuna-uber, LOL.

Johnny+Tara are hardly impartial. Johnny loves Russia. Tara identifies with young firecrackers who do lots of jumps. Both of them want to get a primetime commentating gig and don't want to mess up their chance by creating controversy.

She took the risk in the LP and performed it so beautifully. Most importantly, she won the night.

She performed it with great spring and clean landings, but NOT with an entirely correct lutz edge and NOT rotating the toeloop sufficiently enough. The evidence is there in video for all to see and there is no way to deny it. The toeloop was absolutely underrotated, no question about it.

Sotnikova did not "win the night". She skated in front of Russians who mainly only cared about seeing a Russian win. Her performance was very commendable and she had better spins than Yu-Na and attempted more jump content. However, her execution of the jumps was not flawless, her footwork sequence was absolutely inferior to Yu-Na's, and she is inferior to Yu-Na on the majority of the PCS.

 

[Blades of Passion]

No, somebody cannot be 24th in TES and "deserve" to be 1st in PCS.

Yes they can be, you are just ignorant about judging. If someone goes out there and doesn't do any jump harder than a 3Lutz and only does Level 2 spins and footwork, but does them all perfectly, and does amazing transitions, displays excellent skating quality, and has sublime choreography and interpretation, then they would most definitely deserve to score higher in PCS than people who have harder jumps and extra spin positions but have significantly worse performances, interpretation, and/or transitions.

That's why there are separate marks. Different qualities are being assessed. We never see something like 24th in TES and 1st in PCS because that's simply not how people train. Nobody tries to be the best skater of all-time in terms of PCS while purposefully doing a lot less tech content than the rest of the field. That doesn't mean such a thing isn't possible, however. Female skaters don't do 3Axels and Quads, for instance. If Carolina Kostner was allowed to compete with the Men, would she suddenly deserve lower PCS? Would her skating skills and choreography and interpretation suddenly become worse? No, of course they wouldn't.

You aren't able to assess two separate things and that is your own problem. You don't seem to understand that the best musical interpretation of all time could be a performance that has just a few triple jumps. Such a performance would obviously be dead last in TES in this day and age, but that doesn't take away from the other qualities of the skating. Furthermore, it's important to recognize such differences so that they aren't lost. Skaters these days are usually drastically over-rewarded for performance, choreography, and interpretation; what they are actually doing on the ice is a pale, pale shadow in comparison to the heights that have been achieved in the past.

So, going back to Takahashi, your argument about him not rotating the Quad and only doing one 3Axel in the LP is irrelevant for assessing everything else he did as compared to the other competitors. I don't see why you are focusing only on the jumps to begin with. Takahashi had better spins than the other guys and he had a far better footwork sequence, it was THE best footwork sequence of the entire competition.

 

[gmyers]

I'm pretty sure kostner has been near 24th in Tes and first in pcs

 

[cooper]

@ blade of passion being called a yuna uber.. maybe drivingmissdaisy should read bop's past posts on this forum.. which in fact there were times when the yuna ubers think that bop is a mao uber and hated yuna..

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also at drivingdaisy calling BOP a Yu Na uber.

Anyone who calls Tara fat because she thought Adelina deserved to win is a Yuna uber.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

And the suggestion Sotnikova would have won the competition anywhere. Even in Korea or Italy probably in drivingdaisy's fantasy world.

Luckily my fantasy world is reality. Adelina is the gold medalist!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Anyone who calls Tara fat because she thought Adelina deserved to win is a Yuna uber.

Why do you keep saying this? I've never said this. You better cite some evidence before I start suing you.

 

[Skater Boy]

I agree. I never understood why Patrick would get so much higher on IN and PE.

Patrick could have been first if the judges wanted. While some don't like his PE or IN that is highly subjective at least he is more mature and sophisticated than Hanyu. But remember his transitions could be higher and this could also affect positively his GOES into jumps and spins. I know I risk getting beaten up but this was in the realm of realithy especially if you try to up Dai's pcs whenDai has been fading over the last year injury or not. It is realistic to say Dai and Chan both could have been marked a lot higher than Hanyu, Yan, Fernandez et al. Of course, we all have our opinions but Dai and Chan really are probably the best - even better than Lambiel and Buttle. But it really doesn't matter now does it because the judges did what they wanted. In "law" they always kind talk about what is a reasonable range (of course the problem here on this site would be people are very vociferous and often not too logical but more on our own bias) and it is possible Dai and Chan could have been marked far higher pc wise than Hanyu. Likewise one could have argued say S and K should have been marked higher or Y una higher it was in the "range".

 

[Suzzie]

If Everyone Skates Their Very Best? oh... it would be soooo perfect, sooo great. i dreamed a dream that everyone did everything in their program just like they planned.

Pairs:
1 Volosozhar & Trankov
2 Savchenko & Szolkowy
3 Pang & Tong

Men:
1 Chan
2 Takahashi
3 Hanyu

Dance:
1 Vitue & Moir (i really believe that they could be better)
2 Davis & White
3 Pechelat & Bourzat

Ladies:
1 Asada
2 Kim
3 Julia

Team:
1 Russia
2 Canada
3 USA

 

[Skater Boy]

I think Suzie, and this is only my opinion though really hit it on the head.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes they can be, you are just ignorant about judging. If someone goes out there and doesn't do any jump harder than a 3Lutz and only does Level 2 spins and footwork, but does them all perfectly, and does amazing transitions, displays excellent skating quality, and has sublime choreography and interpretation, then they would most definitely deserve to score higher in PCS than people who have harder jumps and extra spin positions but have significantly worse performances, interpretation, and/or transitions.

That's why there are separate marks. Different qualities are being assessed. We never see something like 24th in TES and 1st in PCS because that's simply not how people train. Nobody tries to be the best skater of all-time in terms of PCS while purposefully doing a lot less tech content than the rest of the field. That doesn't mean such a thing isn't possible, however. Female skaters don't do 3Axels and Quads, for instance. If Carolina Kostner was allowed to compete with the Men, would she suddenly deserve lower PCS? Would her skating skills and choreography and interpretation suddenly become worse? No, of course they wouldn't.

You aren't able to assess two separate things and that is your own problem. You don't seem to understand that the best musical interpretation of all time could be a performance that has just a few triple jumps. Such a performance would obviously be dead last in TES in this day and age, but that doesn't take away from the other qualities of the skating. Furthermore, it's important to recognize such differences so that they aren't lost. Skaters these days are usually drastically over-rewarded for performance, choreography, and interpretation; what they are actually doing on the ice is a pale, pale shadow in comparison to the heights that have been achieved in the past.

So, going back to Takahashi, your argument about him not rotating the Quad and only doing one 3Axel in the LP is irrelevant for assessing everything else he did as compared to the other competitors. I don't see why you are focusing only on the jumps to begin with. Takahashi had better spins than the other guys and he had a far better footwork sequence, it was THE best footwork sequence of the entire competition.

Takahashi did NOT have the best spins, and any person here will tell you that. His footwork I'll give you (even though others were more intricate, his was best performed).

And we don't see 24th TES and 1st PCS because figure skating is a sport and somebody who is 24th best in TES does not deserve to be held ahead of people who try greater difficulty and deliver cleaner skates. In a sport that's constantly trying to maintain credibility as a sport and not some performance art where the prettiest or most expressive defeat those who exhibit greater athleticism, this is absolutely the worst attitude.

To say a skater doesn't have to do more than a 3Z and level 2 spins has to score higher than more ambitious skaters (who do quads and 3As) is wrong. If you had it your way, I'm sure the "Olympics" would be full of artistic types who avoided triple axels and quads so that they could focus on choreography and interpretation. That would kill the sport right then and there. The same goes the other way around... a person with the highest TES with high difficulty should not be given the worst PCS (although, it should still be low PCS), even if they lack choreography or interpretation and have the worst basics. There has to be some reward for being a technically sound skater when it comes to the elements otherwise you're going to get artists like Takahashi and Chan or popular skaters like Plushenko and Kostner placing ahead of skaters who perform cleaner than them with more ambitious difficulty and that is wrong.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why do you keep saying this? I've never said this. You better cite some evidence before I start suing you.

Eh just because you deleted it after I reported you to the mods doesn't mean you never said it. Go ahead and sue me.

EDIT: Or not. Post #583: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...y-Network-commentators-NBC-CBC-BBC-etc/page39

 

[Skater Boy]

Eh just because you deleted it after I reported you to the mods doesn't mean you never said it. Go ahead and sue me.

EDIT: Or not. Post #583: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...y-Network-commentators-NBC-CBC-BBC-etc/page39

Children back to your corners now or no more ice time for either of you lol. If you can't behave may you be condemned to a life time of watching poorly performed Biellemans or every Carmen performance since the beginning of time.

 

[HanDomi]

Maybe those would be the results with fair judging but never with the Sochi judges. Actually Takahashi would never beat Hanyu at this point either with fair or real judging if both skated perfectly. Hanyu is too superior technically to ever lose to Takahashi if Hanyu skates perfectly.

I don't even get how Hanyu would loose to Chan if both would be perfectly Ok Patrick's PCS is higher than Yuzuru, but not so much like it was some time ago, but on technical side of their programs and it's execution Hanyu have big advantage. He can hit around 110 points technically if everything will do perfectly.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't even get how Hanyu would loose to Chan if both would be perfectly Ok Patrick's PCS is higher than Yuzuru, but not so much like it was some time ago, but on technical side of their programs and it's execution Hanyu have big advantage. He can hit around 110 points technically if everything will do perfectly.

Hanyu would certainly beat Chan if he skated perfectly, and he deserves to. Chan would still edge him out on PCS scores, but Hanyu's greater technical content/GOE will put him ahead, even with mistakes. It's how Chan's managed to stay ahead of the rest of the field with 2 reliable quads instead of just 1, but Hanyu's one-upped him with 2 different quads and 2 axels.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Takahashi did NOT have the best spins, and any person here will tell you that.

I never said he did. I said he had better spins than the other guys we are talking about here (Fernandez, Machida, Han), and he did.

And we don't see 24th TES and 1st PCS because figure skating is a sport and somebody who is 24th best in TES does not deserve to be held ahead of people who try greater difficulty and deliver cleaner skates.

Yet again you fail to understand. When did I ever say the person who is 24th in TES deserves to be in the lead? There are TWO scores - TES and PCS - and these combine together to give a TOTAL SCORE. The person who is 24th in TES but 1st in PCS would end up in something like 10th place overall.

In a sport that's constantly trying to maintain credibility as a sport and not some performance art where the prettiest or most expressive defeat those who exhibit greater athleticism, this is absolutely the worst attitude.

Something that is "pretty" requires athleticism to achieve. People don't get amazing lines and movement out of nowhere. It takes training and talent. The same goes for musical interpretation. It is VERY difficult to skate and include all kinds of technical elements while moving IN TIME with the music and with a specific purpose.

BTW, Figure Skating's problem is not that it is trying to maintain credibility as a sport. It's problem is that it is trying to maintain credibility of having HONEST and ACCURATE judging. Not to mention trying to maintain an actual audience as a result of the sport becoming less interesting and exciting to watch.

The same goes the other way around... a person with the highest TES with high difficulty should not be given the worst PCS (although, it should still be low PCS), even if they lack choreography or interpretation and have the worst basics.

This is the worst kind of reasoning ever and shows a COMPLETE lack of understanding how to score.

Everything must be scored exactly for it's value. Jumps have their value. Spins have their value. Skating skills and performance and choreography and interpretation have their value. Someone who is #1 in TES could MOST DEFINITELY have the lowest PCS of the competition.

Take the most technically accomplished performance ever from Min Zhang (3 Quads) and put it up against 23 skaters who are skating like John Curry did at the 1976 Olympics. Min Zhang would absolutely deserve to be dead last in PCS. He'd probably still win the competition because of the huge amount of points from the jumps in comparison to the other skaters who aren't doing anything harder than a 3Loop, but that doesn't mean the rest of his skating wasn't inferior.

-----

Eh just because you deleted it after I reported you to the mods doesn't mean you never said it. Go ahead and sue me.

EDIT: Or not. Post #583: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...y-Network-commentators-NBC-CBC-BBC-etc/page39

I wasn't talking about anyone at all in that post. It was a random joke post meant to highlight the absurdity of the whole situation.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Something that is "pretty" requires athleticism to achieve. People don't get amazing lines and movement out of nowhere. It takes training and talent. The same goes for musical interpretation. It is VERY difficult to skate and include all kinds of technical elements while moving IN TIME with the music and with a specific purpose.

I fully agree with you. However, it is easier to do these things when you do far fewer transitions. Yuna and Caro do more than twice the crossovers in the LP compared to Adelina (count them if you don't believe me). Yuna's jumping passes (set-up and execution) in which choreography stops probably account for a total of 30 seconds in the 4 minute program (13 seconds alone for the first combo). Carolina does very little in the way of transitions and choreography (just a few turns and arm movements total) in between the 4 jumps in the second half of her program, along with the long lutz set-up. Nonetheless, what they do is extremely difficult and they were rewarded with the 1st and 3rd best PCS for their efforts.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I never said he did. I said he had better spins than the other guys we are talking about here (Fernandez, Machida, Han), and he did.

He did not have better spins in terms of difficulty in the freeskate (only one level 4, whereas Machida and Yan had two level 4's and Fernandez had all 3). And if we're talking GOE, I think Takahashi was overscored, particularly on his final spin with the +2s, even though the position was substandard (it was hardly a "layback") and not held.

 

[Meoima]

Take the most technically accomplished performance ever from Min Zhang (3 Quads) and put it up against 23 skaters who are skating like John Curry did at the 1976 Olympics. Min Zhang would absolutely deserve to be dead last in PCS. He'd probably still win the competition because of the huge amount of points from the jumps in comparison to the other skaters who aren't doing anything harder than a 3Loop, but that doesn't mean the rest of his skating wasn't inferior.

High five bro! Not to mention his jumps do not look beautiful either. He did complete 3 quads with funny-looking landings, and the rest of his program is omg. PCS is important, too, really. Only the jumps has little meaning:scowl: figure skating is not only about jumping.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yuna was rewarded with the high best PCS for her efforts.

Eh, Yu-Na wasn't "rewarded" at all compared to Adelina. Her PCS were only .09 points higher, that's essentially just a tie. Have you seen the scoring thread - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49694-DIY-Judging&p=881476&viewfull=1#post881476

You should show us your full scores, with detail. The advantage I give Yu-Na in PCS is not that high, only 2 points. I do give Sotnikova the higher Transitions as well.

While the judging of the PCS was definitely problematic, it's the technical scoring that was the bigger problem. Sotnikova's step sequence was NOT a higher level than Yu-Na's and it was NOT well executed. Furthermore, she received credit for a clearly underrotated 3Toe. The poor assessment of these elements by the judges + tech panel gave Sotnikova a 3.6 point advantage in the scoring.

He did not have better spins in terms of difficulty in the freeskate

The base value of Takahashi's spins was factually higher than the base value of Machida's and Han's. It should have been higher than Fernandez's as well, but Fernandez was gifted with a level 4 on his FCCoSp (he did not hold the basic sit position in that spin for 2 full revolutions). I would agree that Takahashi was overscored on GOE of spins, but everyone is overscored on GOE. I'd give Takahashi a 0 on his first first spin and +1 for the other two, which is still higher than what I'd give the other guys.