- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
(In the good sense.)
Philip Hersh: A painful sight: Hughes, Meissner after the fall(s)
- Thread starter fiercemao
- Start date
Give her more credit...Brennan would get Zhang's URs, weird takeoffs and lack of speed. If you've read her books, she does know a great deal about the sport. She immersed herself into the culture and actually knows quite a bit.
Brennan found out about the French judge THAT night at the hotel. It is likely why she responded so strongly, so soon. Most of the judges and coaches have Brennan's number in their cell phones.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
First, let's agree that beyond your replying to this post (if you want to), we'll finish the SLC disucssion, which is kind of OT.
You're arguing that Brennan knew all the about the supposed confession to Sally Stapleford (the full details of the alleged plot didn't come out until the next day, BTW), yet published a shrieky column going on and on about the "indefensible" result without writing a word about La Gougne's actions? I find that really hard to believe. If Brennan knew what was going on, wouldn't she have written so? What a scoop! But she didn't. She was just joining the "wuzrobbed" chorus without presenting any evidence as to wrong-doing.
Hersh is more critical but at least he complains about everyone, not just the convenient former Soviet bloc.
Maybe in a weird sort of way, he is really expressing his true desire for the 2 to do well because he is upset that they have not done so?
IN any event, he sure knows how to get a reaction from readers which is what he gets paid to do..................
IN any event, he sure knows how to get a reaction from readers which is what he gets paid to do..................
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think that's true. He says that Kimmie and Emily are two of the nicest young ladies in the sport.
Hersh thought the world of Michelle Kwan and wrote lots of articles praising and supporting her. When her skills started to decline after 2003, Hersh wrote about that, too. Some Michelle fans thought Hersh was picking on their girl, but he was just reporting what he saw.
Hersh was also tough on Kwan when she appeared disinterested in skating for most of the 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons, and only got motivated for Worlds. While she definitely was burnt out, she had injured her back and hip in 2000-2001 when working on her Triple Salchow+Triple Loop. She also took a hard fall at Nationals in practice.
Most journalists would question Kwan's decision to leave Frank and coach herself. The reason she gave was unrealistic and it made the press look at Kwan in a different way. One NYTimes reporter wrote a scathing article about her changing as person before the 2002 Olympics.
Hersh has covered this sport for a long time. He knows the skaters, coaches, judges, officials and the international players. While he has been negative lately, he sees the sport going into a free fall and is reporting on it.
Most journalists would question Kwan's decision to leave Frank and coach herself. The reason she gave was unrealistic and it made the press look at Kwan in a different way. One NYTimes reporter wrote a scathing article about her changing as person before the 2002 Olympics.
Hersh has covered this sport for a long time. He knows the skaters, coaches, judges, officials and the international players. While he has been negative lately, he sees the sport going into a free fall and is reporting on it.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think this one was more the norm. Growing up is hard to do.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F03E3D8103FF937A25751C1A9679C8B63
Mr. Hersh
Phil Hersh is absolutely right. Meissner and Hughes need to move on. But apart from that, he is right about everything else as well. This sport is just about dead in America thanks to an ISU that has done everything they can to destroy the beauty of the sport. Not to mention the scoring system that makes it incomprehensible to the viewing public.By the way, Phil Hersh is NOT a casual fan. He is anything but. I can assure you, he knows as much as most of you.
I don't think the majority of people on this board understand the dire straights this sport is in. Skaters are having a hell of a time delivering clean programs (99% of them not clean I would say) and the lack of public support in the US for it is a death knell. This sport is going to go the way of women's soccer and soon. I never thought i would live to see the day but it is approaching and it makes me very sad.
Phil Hersh is absolutely right. Meissner and Hughes need to move on. But apart from that, he is right about everything else as well. This sport is just about dead in America thanks to an ISU that has done everything they can to destroy the beauty of the sport. Not to mention the scoring system that makes it incomprehensible to the viewing public.By the way, Phil Hersh is NOT a casual fan. He is anything but. I can assure you, he knows as much as most of you.
I don't think the majority of people on this board understand the dire straights this sport is in. Skaters are having a hell of a time delivering clean programs (99% of them not clean I would say) and the lack of public support in the US for it is a death knell. This sport is going to go the way of women's soccer and soon. I never thought i would live to see the day but it is approaching and it makes me very sad.
Groshkova
I agree with all your comments. Kimmie is done. She isn't going to get any better. She needs to go to school and possibly stay in figure skating in some capacity but not make it her focus. Emily Hughes exactly the same thing. Your comments about Michelle Kwan are also absolutely right on. Phil Hersh calls it like he sees it.
I agree with all your comments. Kimmie is done. She isn't going to get any better. She needs to go to school and possibly stay in figure skating in some capacity but not make it her focus. Emily Hughes exactly the same thing. Your comments about Michelle Kwan are also absolutely right on. Phil Hersh calls it like he sees it.
Last night I watched a news segment from 1994 where Tonya had just gotten cleared to compete in the Olympics and Brennan, Hersh, and a third guy were asked for comments. Brennan was concerned with the precedent it set, if Tonya was allowed to compete. Hersh just seemed to be glad that we'd get the drama of Tonya and Nancy facing off! I think that says something about them both.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Gorshkova:
Super interesting posts, and I am looking for answers to these questions:
1. Does Brennan know who the other half of the deal was to fix the 2002 Pairs Olys? Why did Cinquanta stop the investigation and persuade the Olympic Committee to issue two gold medals?? The party to the fix was never revealed.
2. Regarding Kwan: Does Hirsch know the story behind her leaving leaving Frank? and how did that plan of action to have her father act as coach come about?
Super interesting posts, and I am looking for answers to these questions:
1. Does Brennan know who the other half of the deal was to fix the 2002 Pairs Olys? Why did Cinquanta stop the investigation and persuade the Olympic Committee to issue two gold medals?? The party to the fix was never revealed.
2. Regarding Kwan: Does Hirsch know the story behind her leaving leaving Frank? and how did that plan of action to have her father act as coach come about?
L
LKR722
Guest
As a Kimmie fan, I am not going to give up on her until she decides she wants to retire. However, in regards to the rest of your post ITA!
I watched Cup of Russia this morning on Ice Network, and it was so sad to see so many dismal and uninterasting programs being skated. I wish the free program was still FREE.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Figure skating is not doing too well in the US, that's true. But some of us are not Americans and look beyond the US, and things are not bad at all in Europe and Asia. Would it be better if the US had some top-of-the-podium potential? Of course. But skating can't - and shouldn't - gear itself just to pleasing Americans (which Hersh doesn't seem to suggest it should, but which Brennan, on the other hand, appears to favor). The system needs tinkering, but skaters and coaches need to learn to work with it - and in fact, many have.
Let me go out on a limb here and suggest that as soon as the US has another dominant lady, as was the case for most of the 1990s and up until Michelle Kwan retired, much of the interest will miraculously return, and people may even finally try to understand the scoring, which really isn't that difficult to figure out.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
^^^
When Kimmie skates clean and still loses, the audience has no idea why she is placed at the bottom of the pack. This should be explained in full and not just a symbol in the protocols which the audience doesn't read anyway. The audience also sees a top CoP skater fall and win the championship.
Falls, are quite obvious to the spectator as are other technique mishaps such as fall-outs and stumbles, but URs and Wrong Edge Take-offs are not clear because there is no apparent mistake to the viewers. It frustrates the audience, and not because the skater isn't Kwan. It's because the Whole Package for the audience which they do understand has been seemingly met, and yet the skater receives such harsh punishment. Add to the fact that the nationalities of the judges and the role of the Tech Panel give rise to the "Who are they?" confusion leading to conspiracy theories.
It's a chore for the average spectator to grasp and hence, why not just look at this on TV, but which doesn't seem to be holding up either. Until a panel of knowledgeable and non-knowledgeable sports fans get together and work out an explanaton of the not-so-obvious mark downs for the general audience live and TV to understand, I can see the Sport going further downhill.
If one doesn't understand the Rules of Play then why should the fans bother with the Sport? If they see figure skating as an entertainment, maybe we should get back to having more Ice Shows.
When Kimmie skates clean and still loses, the audience has no idea why she is placed at the bottom of the pack. This should be explained in full and not just a symbol in the protocols which the audience doesn't read anyway. The audience also sees a top CoP skater fall and win the championship.
Falls, are quite obvious to the spectator as are other technique mishaps such as fall-outs and stumbles, but URs and Wrong Edge Take-offs are not clear because there is no apparent mistake to the viewers. It frustrates the audience, and not because the skater isn't Kwan. It's because the Whole Package for the audience which they do understand has been seemingly met, and yet the skater receives such harsh punishment. Add to the fact that the nationalities of the judges and the role of the Tech Panel give rise to the "Who are they?" confusion leading to conspiracy theories.
It's a chore for the average spectator to grasp and hence, why not just look at this on TV, but which doesn't seem to be holding up either. Until a panel of knowledgeable and non-knowledgeable sports fans get together and work out an explanaton of the not-so-obvious mark downs for the general audience live and TV to understand, I can see the Sport going further downhill.
If one doesn't understand the Rules of Play then why should the fans bother with the Sport? If they see figure skating as an entertainment, maybe we should get back to having more Ice Shows.
I am not sure if the average audience is only responding to mistakes. Even without apparent mistakes, there are times when the average audience could still tell the differences. My parents somehow could guess that Yuna would score much higher than Miki despite that they made similar numbers of visible mistakes. They could not specifically tell how they differed but somehow saw that Yuna was dominant, which seemed to come down to the matter of the Whole Package. If you just count the numbers of mistakes, some may feel frustrated at the wide margin between them. Somehow they just understood despite not knowing the complex calculation system.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
OK, there are are discernible mistakes, but I was talking about the errors that the Tech Panel finds which is not only invisible to the gerneral audience but to many of the posters in forums who do not see underrotations or wrong edge takeoffs. This is frustrating for the viewers. So why did Kimmie end up at the bottom of the pack when she skated clean with no visible errors? If you must bring in your Asian skaters then the rationale also applies to Mao's flutz. The average viewer and many many ardent fans do not see the wrong edge takeoff. I thought the topic was about the painful view of Kimmie and how the not-so-clear Tech Panel errors affect the sport.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
But a lot of it can be explained by the broadcasters. I think the smart thing for the ISU would be to ensure the media has the tech calls in real time so that they can let viewers know what is happening and why. From what I've read here, US commentators hate the current system and don't really take the time to explain how the scoring works. Watching on Eurosport, they make a real effort to make the scoring understandable to the average viewer (though they too were stumped by Kimmie's SP mark) and they go on and on about how skaters can build up levels.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2008
Maybe that's why we have commentators to explain for general audience? I don't want to count number of revolutions, watch edge during takeoff and watch clock during spiral .It's commentator's job and in most cases, they do good job though British euro guys didn't do good job this time. It's kind of surprise that they didn't see UR in 3loop.
At world championship, general audience would have thought Yukari won but commentators mentioned there is chance that her 3axel and 3F could be downgraded. That's the kind of work we expect from commentators.
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- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
'more critical' is an understatement. Sometimes, he's just downright mean. But I do agree that he's more objective than alot of writers are. It's awfully annoying when journalists blame figure skating results they don't agree with on the ''crooked ex-Soviets''.
I find this comment rather bizarre. I believe that sarcasm undermines positive energy and would like to stay away from it.
I agree. It's the job of the broadcasters and I know lots of ppl who have a pretty good understanding of the judging system despite having never skated themselves. Besides, I do not see any reason to go back to the time where URs and wrong edges were overlooked. Even though the Tech Panel is not very clear, the 6.0 system was far more unclear.
In any case, I think it necessary for the audience to learn FS to some extent to really understand the scoring system. For example, the audience needs to learn about different kinds of jumps to understand why one jump scores higher than the other. But we never want to get away with it just because the casual viewers do not understand. The audience would understand and respect the differences in these if they are given understandable explanations from experts like broadcasters.
Although there are times when the impression to the majority of the audience and the actual score do not match (e.g., Ladies Worlds 2008), perhaps they could revise scoring systems and the judging system to address such problems. But I think that the overall impression and the actual score correspond to each other more often than not.
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