Philip Hersh I told you so article

[Particle Man]

Let's not have short memory though. Worlds is not here yet. Czisny still has to perform and if she bombs, the Zhang people will rub "I told you so" in everyone's face.

Yep, and then they will be hypocrites. Sensible people (me for instance ) know that if Alissa falters at Worlds, it doesn't mean Caroline deserved to go in her place. Likewise if Alissa does well at Worlds, it doesn't mean she "deserved" to be there. It's a roll of the dice. Alissa and Rachael were given the chance to roll, that's all. I'd give Rachael odds on consistency at least. I wouldn't give preferential odds to anyone else that we have right now.

I said it well on another board -- Caroline's faltering in the SP at JW only proves that her performance at 4CC didn't prove anything. 1 competition is 1 competition, not a body of evidence.

 

[antmanb]

But that's the very problem- the root of the problem. Let me be DA for a moment. I'll speak in a generic sense here- it doesn't even have to be skating-related. Suppose you don't like their persona, you think they're full of it or you can't stand their neurotic fanatics. Of course, this "hate" isn't exactly in the same sense but you get negative energy from them, let's just say it like that. Same way in team sports. If skating is a REAL sport, as its fans suggest, then I think its fans should be free to "love" or "hate" whomever they want. As long as we don't have the two extremes (stalking or death threats) it's fine. Can't have it both ways.

The skaters know this and can live with it and deal with it. It's part of sport. Otherwise, we may as well be at the circus (and even that isn't free of criticism, ha!)

Just my very controversial 2 cents. have at it.

I would agree, to a certain extent, however, which other sports have people writing vitiolic statements about 13 and 14 year old girls? Seemingly the guys don't provoke the same feeling in fans, and if they do then they're generally much older.

That's where I start to feel uncomfortable because you have to ask yourself the question - what kind of unbalanced person can really hate a child? That's why as heated an awful as the Kwan-Lipinski flamewars were. The worst was done by children who were supporting one child over another. But no adult can have an excuse to say damaging things about a child.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

There was nothing "premature" about what he said. She had a crappy SP. He wrote about it after. Its not like he wrote about her poor performance before it actual happened. She skated badly, far worse than anyoe would have epected given the general attitude that she "deserves" to be on the Sr. World team, and I don't know why its such a crime to call her on it.

Of course it's premature to base a judgment on how someone did at a competition and whether they deserve to be at another competition based solely on the SP performance of a skater. To make a judgment proper you have to see it in light of both SP and LP. Hersh looked a fool and he couldn't even call himself on what a fool he'd been. AT least his articles are there for all to see. He's a crappy journalist who focuses on all things negative and many people are calling him on that.

Ant

 

[Tonichelle]

1 competition is 1 competition, not a body of evidence.

 

[Spun Silver]

I would agree, to a certain extent, however, which other sports have people writing vitiolic statements about 13 and 14 year old girls? Seemingly the guys don't provoke the same feeling in fans, and if they do then they're generally much older.

That's where I start to feel uncomfortable because you have to ask yourself the question - what kind of unbalanced person can really hate a child? That's why as heated an awful as the Kwan-Lipinski flamewars were. The worst was done by children who were supporting one child over another. But no adult can have an excuse to say damaging things about a child.

Ant

 

[fairly4]

This is a n answer to someone who stated they are athlethes , they can take critizism both good and bad.
Really, MIchael Phelps stated he might not stay in swimming (go to the next olympics) due to all the Bad publicity .Which i might as was the result of His behavior.

As far as Carolina goes. Hersh stated the facts for 1 skater, not any other, not Ashely, Katrina, Adam and etc. That is the problem, if they media is going to pick on one skaters inconsistencies, they Have to pick on all. Both good and bad.
not only good like Rachels, Kimmie etc, Sasha's, Tara and leave out the bad. if the media wants to state their opinion on one skaters ability , they should do for all who went to that event.

 

[Tonichelle]

in the US skating community Caroline has been touted as the next Michelle Kwan since her novice competitions. It makes sense that Hersch would pick up on that and do the I Told You So... I can understand the 'hype-hate'... unfortunately most take it too far and take it out on the skater... not the hype itself.

it's also a bit hypocritical for the media to push the hype and then freak out on the skater when it doesn't ring true. unless an agent is pushing (or helping to) the hype (which in this case maybe that does play a factor).. but this is a problem in all forms of sport and entertainment. :sheesh: hohum.

 

[antmanb]

in the US skating community Caroline has been touted as the next Michelle Kwan since her novice competitions. It makes sense that Hersch would pick up on that and do the I Told You So... I can understand the 'hype-hate'... unfortunately most take it too far and take it out on the skater... not the hype itself.

it's also a bit hypocritical for the media to push the hype and then freak out on the skater when it doesn't ring true. unless an agent is pushing (or helping to) the hype (which in this case maybe that does play a factor).. but this is a problem in all forms of sport and entertainment. :sheesh: hohum.

That's the bit that really annoys me - sometimes it's the same journalist who was involved in the hyping that then turns on the skater when they don't deliver. Remember when Kwan stopped working with Frank and Lori, up until that point Hersh did nothing but heap praise in every column he wrote about Kwan and then all of a sudden he turned on her and dragged ehr over the coals fro not delivering at the Olympics.

I'd be interested to hear if Hersh has been involved in hyping Zhang to the grooftops in the past.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I don't recall reading anything about Leonova who moved from 3rd place to 1st place, Ashley who dropped to 3rd place and Gedenashvili who won the SP and was out of the mix for Final Results.

He, apparently, was not reviewing the competition but just Ms Zhang's inability to become part of the World Team as a result of US Nats. I suspect he does prefer her but being a critic, he understands the rationale of the USFS for leaving her off the team. I can not blame him for the caustic remarks of the SP.

As in the movie, there is DOUBT as to whether she belongs on the team. I think he implied that with his mild praise of her LP.

Not the end of the world.

 

[PolymerBob]

Yes, there is doubt. And unless she is forced into a situation where she has to come in to save the day ( Mighty Mouse? ), which is unlikely, we will never know if she should have been put on the team.

 

[Mathman]

in the US skating community Caroline has been touted as the next Michelle Kwan since her novice competitions. It makes sense that Hersch would pick up on that and do the I Told You So...

Actually, I think all that is quite natural. Caroline Zhang was pretty spectacular as a junior. Nothing wrong with reporting that. Will she scale the heights as a senior? Stay tuned.

That's the bit that really annoys me - sometimes it's the same journalist who was involved in the hyping that then turns on the skater when they don't deliver. Remember when Kwan stopped working with Frank and Lori, up until that point Hersh did nothing but heap praise in every column he wrote about Kwan and then all of a sudden he turned on her and dragged ehr over the coals fro not delivering at the Olympics.

Although...I can sort of see it from Hersh's perspective. He thought Michelle was the greatest thing since sliced bread because, well, she was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Then when she dumped her coach just before the Olympics (amid other signs of distress), a perfectly reasonable response might be, "has the girl lost her mind?"

I'd be interested to hear if Hersh has been involved in hyping Zhang to the grooftops in the past.

Groof: when your roof gets all grungy.

 

[Tonichelle]

but people didn't see it like that. they said she WOULD be... and that she WOULD rise to the top... those with cooler heads might have thought 'stay tuned' but the media NEVER thinks like that. They either label you a success before you put your pants on in the morning or take one look at you in your jammies with your hair all askew and say 'yeah, there's no way you'll amount to anything.'

you would think after being wrong for so long the media'd change its tune... no such luck...

Fans then take it and make every excuse as to why she didn't just pop out and win it all... never mind the child is new on the scene and sometimes it takes you a while. we've been so 'spoiled' with Tara and Michelle and Oksana and Mao and we get into this idea that it's just natural that the best will be the best with no funky years... but even the 'greats' had their growing pains... aside from Oksana they don't just "come out of no where" and they do have a rough season or two... in fact, most of the skaters do. But people, for whatever reason, forget that and start screaming the end is near. :sheesh:

and I thought groof was when Goofy woke up Grumpy in the morning?

 

[MK's Winter]

Yes her short wasn't the best, but her long was! Congrats on the silver and Phillip Hersh can eat her ice shavings!

 

[antmanb]

Although...I can sort of see it from Hersh's perspective. He thought Michelle was the greatest thing since sliced bread because, well, she was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Then when she dumped her coach just before the Olympics (amid other signs of distress), a perfectly reasonable response might be, "has the girl lost her mind?"

That would be a perfectly reasonable response, however, that wasn't Hersh's response - it was to beat her up in the press about it, in other words, his usual MO. If it was done from a more objective standpoint then fair enogh but IIRC it was quite a personal attack with a fair amount of allegations thrown at Danny Kwan too.

Groof: when your roof gets all grungy.

and I thought groof was when Goofy woke up Grumpy in the morning?

Did i spell a single thing right in that whole post????!!!!!

Fans then take it and make every excuse as to why she didn't just pop out and win it all... never mind the child is new on the scene and sometimes it takes you a while. we've been so 'spoiled' with Tara and Michelle and Oksana and Mao and we get into this idea that it's just natural that the best will be the best with no funky years... but even the 'greats' had their growing pains... aside from Oksana they don't just "come out of no where" and they do have a rough season or two... in fact, most of the skaters do. But people, for whatever reason, forget that and start screaming the end is near. :sheesh:

I'm not sure i'd have Tara and Oksana in the list since they were both fairly flash in the pan skaters on the top of their career for something like 10 months only.

I think the main problem is people's expectations are high after skaters like Kwan, Slutskaya, Yagudin and Plushenko consistently put out great performances over a long period of time. Often battling with each other for the top two spots. Both Kwan and Slutskaya had one (arguably slutskaya had two) problem seasons related to growth spurts but for Kwan that problem season had her winning silver.

The problem is that too many fans are looking for the next big thing and can't themselves from proclaiming Teresa Tot the future Olympic Champion which starts the hype rolling. We know that most skaters taht make it big in Seniors often don't have that much success in the lower ranks, just as much as we know that an alarmingly large number of girls in the lower ranks will never even make it to the senior ranks not matter how much talent they have because of puberty, injury or money issues, but some people never learn and can't help but talk abou tthe future rather than (or in some cases as well as) appreciating what their skating does there and then.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Yes her short wasn't the best, but her long was! Congrats on the silver and Phillip Hersh can eat her ice shavings!

Philip Hersh can eat yellow snow more like.

Ant

 

[joesk8judg]

remember per the USFS rulebook the national champion of that year is AUTOMATIC to worlds, the others can be decided in various ways.

 

[Eurofan]

remember per the USFS rulebook the national champion of that year is AUTOMATIC to worlds, the others can be decided in various ways.

But that only holds true for Seniors, right? The selection of the junior team seems to be entirely at the discretion of the USFSA.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

After 2003 Worlds, I did not find Kwan the greatest as I did before that, and I resented that whole coach and choreographer change without explanation. However, her consistent gold medals were all well deserved.

I was not one to continue the romance with Kwan after 2003, so I am not one of those people that one poster mentions, which knowing all her posts on Kwan were never complimentary.

As to the much maligned Hersch, well he's a critic and he did enjoy Kwan (as I did) more than others at that time. It's kind of natural to seek another special skater, and it seems he chose Caroline. Why not? Do you think he wields so much power with the public? I don't. Not worth all these pages of obvious posts by obvious posters.

 

[Oldies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSro7X-2jeA
She really fought back in the long! Her practices looked good.

 

[Mathman]

After 2003 Worlds, I did not find Kwan the greatest as I did before that,...

Well, after 2003 Kwan wasn't the greatest skater in the world any more. Arakawa and Cohen were better at 2004 worlds, Slutskaya, Cohen and Kostner were better at 2005 worlds, and that was it for Michelle.

She was still the best in the U.S., though (through 2004 Nationals anyway).

As for Michelle's surprising coaching changes in 2001, there is no reason for fans to resent anything. That was private business among the people involved.