PJ Kwong interviews Carol Lane on Gilles/Poirier, Solo Dance and more

[4everchan]

Of course it's not track and field, but the physical strength of a skater makes a difference in skating and in how far they are able to shine, too. Like I said, as long as the sport is so small it's not a problem - that's also the case in artistic swimming I'm sure - how many boys do start with artistic swimming?
Anyway, the topic has been discussed often enough, so I'll just leave it at this.

enough men in artistic swimming to have their own category at Worlds but not at the Olympics where only teams and duo can compete but the point is this : how many men in artistic swimming would make the national team competing with women ? probably not that many if any. I don't think we will see any in Paris.
Women are just better suited for that sport. And I believe that in ice dance, men may have some advantages in speed for instance but that is not going to be enough to compensate for precision, lines, extension and flexibility.

Sure, let's leave it as it is or not...

One example.. Patrick Chan : he could do wonders in terms of precision, speed, flow, ice coverage.. but when has he featured moves with flexibility ? He is not flexible at all.. I think he stopped doing spread eagles even very early on in his career.. just not his best feature... I think solo dance requires everything.. not just speed and ice coverage... this being said, i'd love seeing him have a go at it...

my point is that skaters can showcase their strengths and focus on that, and women have some natural advantages that could compensate very easily for men's strengths...

we will just have to see how it plays out in a few years.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I am so sorry. I never intended my comment about combining competitions being a backwards move because it results in less prizes being awarded to open up the can of worms that is the trans people in sport debate.

So, let's quickly move on.

with this line of thinking, what about having height categories for single skating ? You think it's fair that a guy who is 6'5" competes against one who is 5"5" ?

Just spotted this addition that you added to your comment.

I realise your tongue is firmly in your cheek here, but you may have a point.

In a sport like figure skating where there is a subjective factor in the scores that are reached at, the Judges may find the way that the elements appear when done by a taller skater to be more aestheically pleasing than the way that the same elements appear when done by a shorter skater. Or vice versa.

Yet, measures have been taken other sports where there is subjective judging. In ski jumping, the way a taller person splits the air is different than the way a shorter person splits the air. And, hence, it can affect how far they jump. So, the length of the skis used is varied according to the height of the person wearing them. And this acts as a way to level the playing field and make it fairer.

Of course, in figure skating, the only additional equipment is the skates. And there isn't a way that they could be adjusted according to the skater's height to try to level the playing field.

The alternative is to do like boxing and have the competitors sorted into divisions. But, in this case, based on height rather than weight. And it could be done as competitions within a competition.

Personally, I would not be in favour of any of this. But I am just saying it is something that could be possible if the ISU had the desire to.

Interestingly, we have had a figure skating event just this week where we had competitions within competitions. Due to the situation in that part of the world, the Israeli Championships were cancelled in December. In the second half of the season, the Israeli Fed hold a series of events similar to the GP Series and the Russian Cup, which culminates in the Cup Of Israel Final. And the Fed decided to combine Nationals with the Final. All the skaters had their scores count towards Nationals. And those skaters who had qualified for the Cup of Israel Final had their scores count towards it as well.

Although not ideal, it was a workable solution. That said, having competitions within competitions is making the reports I am doing for the Gervits family's Fan Fest very complicated to write! So, it is not something I would encourage!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[dorispulaski]

In ice dance, as discussed earlier, speed is not everything.

For many people, me included, Torvill and Dean were the greatest of all time, and they were not even the fastest dancers of their era. Bestemianova & Bukin were faster, but B&B could not have found the beat if you attached metronomes to their costumes.

 

[Seven Sisters]

I can see skaters doing solo dance in addition to another category in the beginning to keep their options open. I'm putting in another vote for Bruce Waddell for solo ice dance, he could compete singles at the same time.

My vote would be for Jean Luc Baker. I’d pay money to see him compete in solo dance!

 

[4everchan]

I can imagine that if a few all time greats decided to compete in solo dance, the sport would get a lot of attention quickly

 

[rain]

Just finished watching this. Carol Lane is a great interview.

I agree with her about the difficulties of the rhythm dances. It's so weird to require the paso doble in social dances from 1950-1979. Like, how do you reconcile those two things in a way that makes any sense, and provides the "viral" moment that the powers that be so clearly want above all else?

I do not mind seeing teams having to do the same steps. I find it very instructive.

 

[TallyT]

I can imagine that if a few all time greats decided to compete in solo dance, the sport would get a lot of attention quickly

Might, though in this day and age and media-driven attention spans it might also be good to nurture young mediagenic stars who have the charisma and musicality but not the jumps for current singles stardom. My main worry is that given all the talk I hear about the even dodgier than the rest of 'em judging in current ice dance... bringing previous stars in to singles ID might be a recipe for even more of it at least of the talk!

Who did you have in mind?

 

[icewhite]

I can imagine that if a few all time greats decided to compete in solo dance, the sport would get a lot of attention quickly

It would get a lot of attention, but it could also well lead to it gaining even more of a reputation of a "non sport": "so you are not fit enough anymore for the other disciplines and had to retire, but you can still do solo ice dance?" Not sure if that's the best way.

 

[4everchan]

It would get a lot of attention, but it could also well lead to it gaining even more of a reputation of a "non sport": "so you are not fit enough anymore for the other disciplines and had to retire, but you can still do solo ice dance?" Not sure if that's the best way.

depends... I was thinking about someone like Guillaume Cizeron for instance or Maddie Hubbell. It doesn't have to be single skaters. Did people talk ill about Daisuke when he switched to ice dance ? I am not so sure it would be so negative if some skaters like Patrick Chan, who does know what to do with his blades, unlike MANY jumpers came back... because he could shine. Not every single skaters would necessarily be successful in ice dance. Daisuke himself, though he is certainly one of the best skaters of his generations for skating skills did have some difficulties to overcome. It may put in perspective how difficult ice dance is... How skating with deep edges and flow is a completely different animal

 

[synesthesia]

depends... I was thinking about someone like Guillaume Cizeron for instance or Maddie Hubbell. It doesn't have to be single skaters. Did people talk ill about Daisuke when he switched to ice dance ? I am not so sure it would be so negative if some skaters like Patrick Chan, who does know what to do with his blades, unlike MANY jumpers came back... because he could shine. Not every single skaters would necessarily be successful in ice dance. Daisuke himself, though he is certainly one of the best skaters of his generations for skating skills did have some difficulties to overcome. It may put in perspective how difficult ice dance is... How skating with deep edges and flow is a completely different animal

Not in the sense of "he's swichting to ice dance, because he can't cut it as a singles skater anymore", but any flaw he had as an ice dancer was nitpicked to death by some people instead of focusing on what he did well. What he accomplished in such a short time as someone switching that late, with chronic knee problems and being partnered with someone an inch shorter than him (the smallest height difference in the entire field) and of a relatively similar build was actually pretty remarkable. Fortunately, Kana (a late-switcher herself) was very aware of it and emphasized it in interviews whenever she had the opportunity.

There were also quite a few accusations of reputation scoring. As TallyT said, it's not far-fetched to imagine that similar discussions would come up in solo dance if big names like Patrick or Guillaume were to enter the discipline and "take the spotlight away" from lesser-known competitors.

Anyway, I personally think (former) singles stars like Stephane, Mao, Jason or Satoko and many ice dancers would likely do well in solo dance.

 

[Mathman]

Men may have some advantages in speed for instance but that is not going to be enough to compensate for precision, lines, extension and flexibility.

This is a very interesting question to me. Is it really true that women are naturally more graceful and flexible, with more aesthetically pleasing “lines” than men? If so, is this genetically determined, or is a cultural phenomenon (girls are sent to “finishing school” to teach them how to be ladies while boys are sent to business school or to law school to teach them how to get rich)?

Ten thousand years ago, when the human race lived by hunting and gathering, for various reasons women were appointed as the primary gatherers and men the primary hunters. Gathering is more successful when the participants work together as a group, which depends on communication skills. Hunting favors the strong-silent-aggressive type.

Are women genetically programmed to excel in team sports, while men have the edge in individual sports? The semi-final U.S. women’s college basketball game yesterday set the all-time single game ESPN record, men or women, college or pro, for TV viewership (14.2 million viewers, beating the old record from a few days ago of 12.3 million in the quarterfinals).

In contrast, here are men engaging in a team sport.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsAC7f17D2s

(The cool thing is how the referees did their job by kicking the sticks out of the way so the fighters wouldn’t trip on them and actually get hurt. )

Anyway, on topic, I think that the future of solo ice dance is at the level of children’s and recreational sport. Not every athletic endeavor needs to be in the Olympics.

 

[4everchan]

This is a very interesting question to me. Is it really true that women are naturally more graceful and flexible, with more aesthetically pleasing “lines” than men? If so, is this genetically determined, or is a cultural phenomenom

I'd say genetics.

Anyway, on topic, I think that the future of solo ice dance is at the level of children’s and recreational sport.

I disagree with this

Not every athletic endeavor needs to be in the Olympics.

That is fine with me. Synchro is not an Olympic sport. It is not less of a sport because of that. Logistics of the Olympics make it hard to welcome always more athletes. At least, that's one of the reasons. Solo dance, it could be limited to a mixed field of let's say 24 or 32 skaters.... That's barely two synchro teams..... In that sense, I choose to be excited about the development of solo dance.

 

[gsk8]

My vote would be for Jean Luc Baker. I’d pay money to see him compete in solo dance!

Yesssss!

 

[Mathman]

I'd say genetics.

I Googled this question (Do women have looser ligaments than men?) -- and you are right! The answer is yes, because that is side effect of estrogen. That is why female athletes are at greater risk than males to suffer ACL injuries -- who knew?

So I guess men will just have to live with it: women are better dancers.

 

[TallyT]

This is a very interesting question to me. Is it really true that women are naturally more graceful and flexible, with more aesthetically pleasing “lines” than men?

Nope.

Anyway, on topic, I think that the future of solo ice dance is at the level of children’s and recreational sport. Not every athletic endeavor needs to be in the Olympics.

Could become an artform rather than a sport, melding into shows etc. On the other hand, ballroom and breakdance are now in the Olympics.... so who knows?

I also think, looking at my own horde of niblings and great-niblings (I was at the tail end of a large family and a great-aunt in my twenties, okay?) that like many formally trained dance forms - and current ID - it will be dominated numerically by girls, especially if any boys interested are told they have to compete - at a sport - against girls. I'm not saying that's the right way for them to think, but it may be something that will need to be considered until young attitudes change.

 

[Mathman]

I also think, looking at my own horde of niblings and great-niblings (solo dance) it will be dominated numerically by girls, especially if any boys interested are told they have to compete - at a sport - against girls.

I think that this has always been an issue in figure skating at the lower levels. There are never enough boys to have their own competitions. I believe that sometimes for local and club competitions. the boy (maybe only one) is given the choice of either competing against the girls or competing against a fixed standard depemdig on level -- if you complete a certain number of elements you get a gold or a silver or a bronze prize.

I can see why boys don't like to compete against girls -- it's unchivalrous.

 

[4everchan]

It's cultural. In music, boys and girls compete against one another. And yes, there are some physical advantages for some instruments but it's not always linked to gender. I have NEVER heard anyone in music complaining that they had to compete with the girls or with the boys... To me, it has to do with culture. The old macho attitude "boys are better than girls when it comes to sports" simply has to be put to rest. BTW... part of what it is with music is that kids are told that they are competing with themselves (I admit some have a more competitive mindset than others) The goal is to manage to control nerves, to remain focused and connected, to do your best. It's something that could definitely be nurtured in sport too...

 

[Mathman]

Could become an artform rather than a sport, melding into shows etc.

That was my first thought when people started talking about Takahashi, Lambiel, etc. I would pay to see them perform, but I am not sure that a competition format would add interest to the show.

 

[TallyT]

Oh I agree it's cultural and we should work to change it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is currently the way things are with many many, maybe most boys, and changing it will take time, quite a bit of time. I mean, how many people still insist that wearing beautiful/sparkly costumes is somehow unmanly?

That was my first thought when people started talking about Takahashi, Lambiel, etc. I would pay to see them perform, but I am not sure that a competition format would add interest to the show.

One of the ice shows in Japan are apparently going to do warm ups as part of the show program - of course if so, they did lift the idea straight from Yuzu's shows, but the point is that elements of competition format may be creeping into shows once someone with clout shows how they can work. And with solo ID, maybe just maybe elements of shows will creep into competition.

I think it would also depend on how many people worldwide would pay (or pay extra, for a whole fs comp stretched out for new more sections) to watch the new discipline while and if it grew.

 

[4everchan]

That was my first thought when people started talking about Takahashi, Lambiel, etc. I would pay to see them perform, but I am not sure that a competition format would add interest to the show.

I believe many of these skaters still do shows.

Let's have a vision of what solo dance could be ten or fifteen years from now. Many skaters in Canada do two disciplines (singles and dance, singles and pairs... etc) (did you know Shae-Lynn Bourne was a pairs skater for instance ???) I can imagine young kids wanting to compete in both singles and solo dance for instance, and could reach senior levels in both too. Then, maybe, especially if solo dance is not mainstream or at the Olympics, but still has a season and world championships, we could see skaters evolving from one discipline to the other, depending on their circumstances. Why? Because skaters LOVE skating simply put.

Another career path for skaters is a good thing.