Post tryout: Brubaker will sit out season

[janetfan]

Well, Rockne Brubaker is 26, Amanda Evora is 28, and Mary Beth Marley is 17.

So it looks like Rockne is looking for a partner whose pairs skills are a good match for his, rather than for victims for his alter ego as a serial killer.

Edited to add: Oops -- Amanda is 27.

Every year (over 30 years now) my sister and I host a US Natls skating party.
At one time we had close to 100 guests - but sadly it is now down to 20 or so.

A neighbor of mine, a US prosecutor saw some of the Pairs and mentioned "pedophilia."

OK, a few of us booed him....but could not overlook the observation of a very smart man.

He was right....Pairs skating is not attractive to US casual fans and has more appeal as a freak show.

Is it any surprise the TV ratings are so low.

For the record, my 15 year old daughter plays soccer.... but if she was in skating no way in hell would I agree to pair her up with a man almost twice her age. :disagree:


If some of you would...fine...but sorry, I am not into freak shows when it comes to my family.

 

[Mathman]

I'm just saying, that's a strange point to be making on a thread about a tryout between a 26-year-old guy and a 27-year-old lady.

 

[Tonichelle]

I'm just saying, that's a strange point to be making on a thread about a tryout between a 26-year-old guy and a 27-year-old lady.

she's practically a cougar

 

[janetfan]

I'm just saying, that's a strange point to be making on a thread about a tryout between a 26-year-old guy and a 27-year-old lady.

Not a problem with the skaters you are referring to.

I like them both.

Believe it ir not it is just as strange to me to see the acceptance of teams so mismatched by AGE not to mention size.

God bless Randy Gardner for being man enough to lift weights so he could skate with Tai, who was close to his size.

No one remembers that Randy and Tai did the big tricks of their day ....but also did moves and had lines never since matched in Pairs skating.

Sorry but we don' t ever see a nice Pairs line when the guy is 6'2 and 200 plus pounds and the girl is 4 '10 and 88 pounds.

To me in most cases these Pairs are the antithesis of art.

Maybe my standards are too high....or for some they are too low.

I blame the CoP for destroying the beautiful art of Pairs skating.

 

[Olympia]

Not that this conversation applies to Evora and Brubaker, but it's definitely relevant because of that report of the new pair in the news section. That photo of Liu and Perini, aged 19 and 12, is something I did not warm to. When will they start looking like a real pair? I am definitely uneasy about showing that pair to any non-skate-fan friends.

I do remember Tai and Randy's being so close in size, and also Ken Shelley (about 5'8", like Randy) and the tall and glamorous JoJo Starbuck, their predecessors as U.S. champions. They were both John Nicks pairs and had a special elegance of line. Interesting, this Liu and Perini are also a Nicks pair.

That was actually one of the beauties of Evora/Ladwig: they were a man and a woman skating. They had such a wonderful rapport, and I hoped to see Evora skating again and radiating that quality.

It's not just the size difference but the difference in body type. In a pairing with a very young girl, the guy moves like a man and the "lady" moves like a child. By contrast, a pair of similar age with almost as great a height differential, such as Underhill and Martini, can generate a splendid chemistry. Hough and Ladret are another example of two adults with a height differential, except that they don't move "as one" as electrically as Underhill/Martini. (An unfair standard! Few people muster up the sympatico of Paul and Barbara.) The other great example is of course Gordeyeva/Grinkov. When Katia was fourteen, Grinkov was also just young enough that he looked like a boy next to her girl, not like what we used to call the "gorilla and flea" combination that some Soviets who were paired together had. Remember Sergey Shakhrai and Marina Cherkasova? They did quads when she was twelve and he was huge, but they looked like an emotional dead zone, and then she grew a bit taller and older, and they were suddenly down three places in the rankings and did not make up for it in terms of emotional link.

 

[Tonichelle]

not like what we used to call the "gorilla and flea" combination that some Soviets who were paired together had. Remember Sergey Shakhrai and Marina Cherkasova? They did quads when she was twelve and he was huge, but they looked like an emotional dead zone, and then she grew a bit taller and older, and they were suddenly down three places in the rankings and did not make up for it in terms of emotional link.

.. the CoP is that old?!

I just don't see pairs skating/age difference as the reason people are turned off. This is not a new trend in pairs, and with the insane throws of the Chinese it's not surprising that they're looking for insane height differences, unfortunately that also means in most cases age difference is a big one... comparing these young men with pedophiles goes way over the line, IMO.

 

[Olympia]

I'm not sure what the CoP has to do with it, Toni, but that particular combination is not attractive to watch even for many fans (self included). I'm not sure whether it turns outsiders off (though I suspect it might), but it sure doesn't bring anyone in, and a couple like G/G or U/M can indeed make an impression with outsiders--and, in fact, did.

We're not comparing actual skaters to pedophiles, though; for the purposes of this conversation, it's interesting that the person who stated that connection was Janetfan's attorney neighbor, who may be only a casual fan of skating. I don't think that's entirely irrelevant because the music and the holds and lifts suggests at least an emotional connection if not a romantic one.

 

[janetfan]

Not that this conversation applies to Evora and Brubaker, but it's definitely relevant because of that report of the new pair in the news section. That photo of Liu and Perini, aged 19 and 12, is something I did not warm to. When will they start looking like a real pair? I am definitely uneasy about showing that pair to any non-skate-fan friends.

I do remember Tai and Randy's being so close in size, and also Ken Shelley (about 5'8", like Randy) and the tall and glamorous JoJo Starbuck, their predecessors as U.S. champions. They were both John Nicks pairs and had a special elegance of line. Interesting, this Liu and Perini are also a Nicks pair.

That was actually one of the beauties of Evora/Ladwig: they were a man and a woman skating. They had such a wonderful rapport, and I hoped to see Evora skating again and radiating that quality.

It's not just the size difference but the difference in body type. In a pairing with a very young girl, the guy moves like a man and the "lady" moves like a child. By contrast, a pair of similar age with almost as great a height differential, such as Underhill and Martini, can generate a splendid chemistry. Hough and Ladret are another example of two adults with a height differential, except that they don't move "as one" as electrically as Underhill/Martini. (An unfair standard! Few people muster up the sympatico of Paul and Barbara.) The other great example is of course Gordeyeva/Grinkov. When Katia was fourteen, Grinkov was also just young enough that he looked like a boy next to her girl, not like what we used to call the "gorilla and flea" combination that some Soviets who were paired together had. Remember Sergey Shakhrai and Marina Cherkasova? They did quads when she was twelve and he was huge, but they looked like an emotional dead zone, and then she grew a bit taller and older, and they were suddenly down three places in the rankings and did not make up for it in terms of emotional link.

Olympia, I am not surprised that you expressed my thoughts in a much more graceful manner.

It is interesting that you mentioned G/G.
They were separated by age and size ....but nothing else.

I will never forget how elegant this legendary team was....or the way Katia used to look at Sergei.

When we are talking about such chemistry and love we are in an altogether different situation.

G/G were magic.... and not to be compared ever to some of the current Pairs teams that are together strictly as a matter of size difference//



ETA: ( Not to Olympia)

The CoP has everything to do with it. As long as sloppy teams with poor unison can get by doing big tricks dependent on a huge man and tiny girl we will continue to see mostly mediocre Pairs skating.

Let's stop the nonsense here....Pairs skating has horrible ratings which is why it is barely shown anymore on TV.

Disagree with me but don't ignore the situation to make a case.

 

[Mathman]

i think the original gorilla and flea approach to pairs skating came along way before the CoP. irina Rodnina (she was m-a-y-b-e 5 feet tall) and Alexander Zaitzev (almost six feet) drove the elegant and graceful Protopopovs into retirement with their technical tricks. Artur Dmitriev (two Olympic gold medals) was almost a foot taller than both Mishkutenok (she was listed as 5'3 and 78 pounds in one competition) and Kazakova. Anton Sijharulidze is six feet tall, Elena Bereshnya barely five feet.

 

[Tonichelle]

i think the original gorilla and flea approach to pairs skating came along way before the CoP. irina Rodnina (she was m-a-y-b-e 5 feet tall) and Alexander Zaitzev (almost six feet) drove the elegant and graceful Protopopovs into retirement with their technical tricks. Artur Dmitriev (two Olympic gold medals) was almost a foot taller than both Mishkutenok (she was listed as 5'3 and 78 pounds in one competition) and Kazakova. Anton Sijharulidze is six feet tall, Elena Bereshnya barely five feet.

exactly, and China's teams were becoming top teams before CoP even with their sloppy out of sync skating... those teams have gotten better in the last few seasons, ironically.

 

[janetfan]

i think the original gorilla and flea approach to pairs skating came along way before the CoP. irina Rodnina (she was m-a-y-b-e 5 feet tall) and Alexander Zaitzev (almost six feet) drove the elegant and graceful Protopopovs into retirement with their technical tricks. Artur Dmitriev (two Olympic gold medals) was almost a foot taller than both Mishkutenok (she was listed as 5'3 and 78 pounds in one competition) and Kazakova. Anton Sijharulidze is six feet tall, Elena Bereshnya barely five feet.

Mishkutenok is a poor comparison math.
She was a woman, and skated like a woman. Absolutely crazy to say she weighed 78 pounds.

I loved Artur and Natalia and part of it was because she was not a 4'11 and 80 pound sprite.

 

[Mathman]

Mishkutenok is a poor comparison math.
She was a woman, and skated like a woman. Absolutely crazy to say she weighed 78 pounds..

I knew that couldn't be right! I checked the source again, and it was Dmetriev's wife, rhythmic gymnast Tatiana Drushinanina, who competed at that weight several years before she married Artur.

 

[janetfan]

I knew that couldn't be right! I checked the source again, and it was Dmetriev's wife, rhythmic gymnast Tatiana Drushinanina, who competed at that weight several years before she married Artur.

I bet you never forgot this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpKHpIC6Yn0

 

[Mathman]

I bet you never forgot this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpKHpIC6Yn0

People say that skating today is the same as it's always been, some good performances, some bad, once in a while an extra-good one.

No. It's not the same thing.

How about Moskiva's answer to the question, "Why do you keep the same music?"

"Why do you keep the same husband?" :yes:

 

[janetfan]

People say that skating today is the same as it's always been, some good performances, some bad, once in a while an extra-good one.

No. It's not the same thing.

How about Moskiva's answer to the question, "Why do you keep the same music?"

"Why do you keep the same husband?" :yes:

Yes and when Moskvina was asked "what do you hope for tonight" she said "a standing ovation."

 

[gold12345]

The CoP has everything to do with it. As long as sloppy teams with poor unison can get by doing big tricks dependent on a huge man and tiny girl we will continue to see mostly mediocre Pairs skating.

Let's stop the nonsense here....Pairs skating has horrible ratings which is why it is barely shown anymore on TV.

Disagree with me but don't ignore the situation to make a case.

America never tends to have a World/Olympic medal winner in pairs, that's why it's less likely to be shown on US TV. I agree that the CoP has caused issues (lack of unison, etc), but I don't think that's affecting the popularity of the discipline on TV compared to the other disciplines. We just simply have much better success in singles and dance.


As for Brubaker, I doubt Bebe Liang would be small enough for him (not to mention she has no pairs experience). It sounds like he turned her down, maybe without even bothering with a tryout. And I could understand that neither Evora or Brubaker would want to move. That may also be code for the tryout just not going all that great. Saying you can't move is a convenient excuse. Maybe they were hoping they'd have such an immediate connection that someone would be convinced to move, but obviously nothing came of it. And both of them seem to really like their respective coaching teams.

 

[Olympia]

People say that skating today is the same as it's always been, some good performances, some bad, once in a while an extra-good one.

No. It's not the same thing.

How about Moskiva's answer to the question, "Why do you keep the same music?"

"Why do you keep the same husband?" :yes:

Golly, I love Moskvina. I suspect that one reason I keep hoping that Kavaguti/Smirnov win a world championship is that they're a Moskvina pair, and I want her to be at the top of the pyramid once more.

When I think of the term "gorilla/flea pairing," I tend to think of very big men put together by coaches with young, unformed girls whose main asset is their ability to be lifted and thrown because they don't weigh anything. While many champion Soviet or Russian lady pair skaters are very petite, I wouldn't compare any of the ones cited on the last few pages as examples of the gorilla/flea partnership style. The women mentioned, Rodinina, Mishkutenok, Kazakova, and Berezhnaya, may be petite but are all mature interpreters of both music and technique. Rodnina, probably the tiniest (five feet even, I seem to recall), was the star long before Zaitsev came along. The story goes that after she and Alexei Ulanov broke up because he fell for another skater, Rodnina (already a multi-time world champion and an Olympic gold medalist with Ulanov) was considered such a national treasure that prospective partners were paraded before her so that she could have her pick of the best one. However her partnering with Zaitsev came about, she was the pinnacle of Russian skating all by herself. She was short but muscular--no waif in any sense of the word. Her style was strong, even fierce.

 

[mousepotato]

The CoP has everything to do with it. As long as sloppy teams with poor unison can get by doing big tricks dependent on a huge man and tiny girl we will continue to see mostly mediocre Pairs skating.

Let's stop the nonsense here....Pairs skating has horrible ratings which is why it is barely shown anymore on TV.

Disagree with me but don't ignore the situation to make a case.

You’re kidding right? G/G were just as bad when it came to the gorilla and flea problem especially when he was in his 20s and she was still a teenager. People tend to look back on them with such rose colored glasses that they forget that.

As far as pairs skating (or skating in general) it’s not on tv because they won’t put in on tv. When it is it’s so few and far between with such crappy commentators no one can stand to watch it. Americans have no one to root for like Michelle. Evan? Come on? One time world gold medalist and one time Olympic gold medalist, then he drops off the face of the earth-not a lot of longevity.

I was at the Staples Center when Kavaguti and Smirnov skated and got a standing ovation for their short program by many people of all nations. That was only the end of their second full season together. So don’t blame the COP, many great skaters are out there if you choose to see them.

 

[Victura]

G/G were just as bad when it came to the gorilla and flea problem especially when he was in his 20s and she was still a teenager.

I was just about to point that out too. They were hugely criticized in their early days (especially when they were still with Zhuk) by commentators for only being technical skaters and for having been paired up due to their size difference, which was somewhat of a trend at the time. Still, if anything, G&G showed that these pairings can mature into much more and that teams that initially may be gorilla/flea teams should not be discounted.

 

[janetfan]

You’re kidding right? G/G were just as bad when it came to the gorilla and flea problem especially when he was in his 20s and she was still a teenager. People tend to look back on them with such rose colored glasses that they forget that.

As far as pairs skating (or skating in general) it’s not on tv because they won’t put in on tv. When it is it’s so few and far between with such crappy commentators no one can stand to watch it. Americans have no one to root for like Michelle. Evan? Come on? One time world gold medalist and one time Olympic gold medalist, then he drops off the face of the earth-not a lot of longevity.

I was at the Staples Center when Kavaguti and Smirnov skated and got a standing ovation for their short program by many people of all nations. That was only the end of their second full season together. So don’t blame the COP, many great skaters are out there if you choose to see them.

Here is a piece on G/G which touches on this.....also mentions the 4 year age difference. (not 6, 8, 10 or 12........)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkKmA08l__Y

Watching them, especially Sergei it feels ridiculous to call him a "gorilla."
He was so elegant on the ice and on close ups we see a boyish quality and charm.