Tarasova is a destructive influence on American skaters

[Bennett]

The intent of IJS was that PE, CH and IN would explicitly reward good presentation based on defined criteria and not the whims of the judges' tastes. In reality, there seem to be two problems (IMO).

First, the PCs are not being used correctly (as intended) by the judges. As a result good presentation often doesn't get rewarded if the elements are weak, and mediocre/poor presentation gets rewarded if the elements are strong (Plushenko OGM). This is the fault of the judges and not the design of IJS.

But there is also a second problem with the design of IJS. Say mediocre program from a skater of decent technical skills is going to get the usual 5-6 points in PCs. To move up by 2 points in each of PE, CH and IN requires a huge investment of time and effort. For all that work, a man's PCS score will go up 12 points. However, if for the same amount of work (or less) you can get a 4T and execute it twice in the FS, you get 18 points. So I think many skater do a quick cost-benefit and say, I can get more points learning more difficult tricks than investing the time in improving presentation. And if I improve in technical skills, it will pull up my PC scores anyway.

On the other side of the equation however, if a skater has reached their full potential in elements, then the only place left to earn more points is to improve the PCs. But most skaters it seems never lose hope that they will eventually get the next big jump, and so they flog the elements at the expense of the PCs.

Great post. Thank you for your insights.
But I think that some people are simply more talented and find it easier to improve presentation than jumps despite that it is not necessarily cost-effective in terms of earning points.

 

[Tonichelle]

Oh I agree, TAT might have ruined a lot for Johnny. Thanks goodness, his jumps/ medals are back, he's so much better off without her. There was yet another evil woman in Johnny's life who's name starts with a P.

I, too, now see how unhealthy his obsession with so called "beautiful skating"
was. Beautiful shmootiful. Swan? Otonal? Rondo? Disposable crap. Love is war? That's what he needs.

1. I don't think Pricilla was bad for Johnny... she got him up to the top pretty quickly.. what happened was they got too comfy with what they had... and they became too buddy buddy in a way. She is not evil.

2. Otonal was a GREAT program and he had a lot of success with it... I loved it and I'm not a fan of his...

3. Yes, his new LP rocks. Denis Petukhov is a great choreographer

 

[gsrossano]

But I think that some people are simply more talented and find it easier to improve presentation than jumps despite that it is not necessarily cost-effective in terms of earning points.

I agree. And if someone is so gifted they don't have to really work at it (presentation), as some are, then those PCs are just "free money" so to speak.

 

[Bennett]

I agree. And if someone is so gifted they don't have to really work at it (presentation), as some are, then those PCs are just "free money" so to speak.

That would be nice. But actually, I was thinking of an opposite case (alas a sad senario). Someone who is talented in the presentation department finds it difficult to master the big trick and therefore not fully rewarded for what he/she is good at (presentation) because his/her PCSs go down following the lower TESs. So he/she cannot get the reward for what he/she is really good at and has worked hard on. So his/her talent and efforts on presentation are not really cost-effective, but he/she couldn't help working on it because that's what he/she loves and is talented at.

 

[Hsuhs]

I give up.

No, looks like I don't. "is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

 

[krenseby]

I give up.

Give up what?

 

[Hsuhs]

Give up what?

krenseby dear, don't you already have enough opponents?

 

[krenseby]

krenseby dear, don't you already have enough opponents?

Yeap, but at least everyone's keeping it civil and not accusing me of being EEEEVIL ;-)

 

[Hsuhs]

Yeap, but at least everyone's keeping it civil and not accusing me of being EEEEVIL ;-)

Good for you!! Keep your spirits up high.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Good for you!! Keep your spirits up high.

yeah...things can get pretty nasty on forums, but I commend your sharing your honest views with us Krenseby!

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I've obviously need to get to bed... The only thing TAT is destructive to is the anti-fur movement... 'cause she's so fly in her mink!

Look, coaches can only do so much and I doubt that TAT's obsession with the artistic elements of skating negatively impacted Sasha or Johnny... if anything, she gave them the tools to enhance their natual gifts in a way that mimized the technical flaws both made... Now, if it was her standard of perfection that caused both to stagnate in technical development, then the blame still falls on them.. any rational skater would know that skating for TAT is not going to be a comfy, huggy kissy relationship. She doesn't allow for that - its all about the skating, the work and the medals. Some skaters thrive in that environment, others don't... it is what it is...

 

[bekalc]

While I realize the person making this thread may not have meant to be mean. I think the person's thread is ridiculous... Tarasova worked with two American skaters. TWO..

In the case of Sasha Cohen, it's quite clear that Sasha failed to follow Tarasova's advice...What's a coach to do if the student fails to listen, well the coach is to do what Tarasova did: Fire the student.

Then, there's Johnny Weir. Johnny never fully trained with Tarasova, but it's hard to think he followed Tarasova's advice. For example, Tarasova has been asking Johnny to go for the quad for years and he hasn't done it...

I'm sure Tarasova wouldn't look to kindly on Johnny deciding to do fashion shows etc instead of training seriously.. In fact, I think it may have been Tarasova who suggested that Johnny go to Galina and Victor.. (I bet Victor is more and more a huge force in Johnny's coaching team....)

Now, I personally don't think Tarasova deserves a lot of credit for Arakawa's success. For example Arakawa was working with Richard Calahaun until like 2 weeks before the world championships.. So I think Richard deserves quite a lot of credit for Arakawa becoming a world champion himself...I also think whatever her arangement was with Arakawa it probably wasn't working all that well. I mean what coach who is fully committed to her student winning the Olympic games agrees to choregraph programs for one of her top competitors.. I think Tarasova was something like a part time coach for Arakawa by then or maybe even more of a consultant.

But still Tarasova has coached numerous champions, including Yagudin/Ilia who were hardly lax technically.. As for Mao's problems reports were that Mao was injured this summer, hardly Tarasova's fault.

 

[Vodka Shot]

I see what the initial post is getting at, but that's not TT's fault. CoP is faulty and ruining figure skating because it doesn't appreciate the art aspect of it. Should people like TT who value artistry and beauty in skating just give up then because it's not going to be appreciated? Should all skaters adopt cold empty jump programs with no choreography and ignore music? Just because something is the case doesn't mean it's right. I respect skaters that aren't selling out, those who refuse to skate dead programs with nothing but jump after jump ......they may not win, but they're actually figure skating instead of skating on ice while jumping every so often. The artistic side of skating should be appreciated just as much as the athletic and the lack thereof should be penalized just as harshly as if the skater finished their program with-out landing a single jump imo.

 

[kandidy]

Yes, of course this is the Korean Federation's conspiracy which persuades Tarasova first and lets her trick Mao into pursuing artistic greatness and let Mao lose her original jumping ability.

Mao is too smart to be tricked by Tarasova or the Korean Federation. She is not that stupid.

What is it to do with Mao going to TT with Korean federation? I don't understand.

 

[krenseby]

While I realize the person making this thread may not have meant to be mean. I think the person's thread is ridiculous... Tarasova worked with two American skaters. TWO..

In the case of Sasha Cohen, it's quite clear that Sasha failed to follow Tarasova's advice...What's a coach to do if the student fails to listen, well the coach is to do what Tarasova did: Fire the student.

Then, there's Johnny Weir. Johnny never fully trained with Tarasova, but it's hard to think he followed Tarasova's advice. For example, Tarasova has been asking Johnny to go for the quad for years and he hasn't done it...

I'm sure Tarasova wouldn't look to kindly on Johnny deciding to do fashion shows etc instead of training seriously.. In fact, I think it may have been Tarasova who suggested that Johnny go to Galina and Victor.. (I bet Victor is more and more a huge force in Johnny's coaching team....)

Now, I personally don't think Tarasova deserves a lot of credit for Arakawa's success. For example Arakawa was working with Richard Calahaun until like 2 weeks before the world championships.. So I think Richard deserves quite a lot of credit for Arakawa becoming a world champion himself...I also think whatever her arangement was with Arakawa it probably wasn't working all that well. I mean what coach who is fully committed to her student winning the Olympic games agrees to choregraph programs for one of her top competitors.. I think Tarasova was something like a part time coach for Arakawa by then or maybe even more of a consultant.

But still Tarasova has coached numerous champions, including Yagudin/Ilia who were hardly lax technically.. As for Mao's problems reports were that Mao was injured this summer, hardly Tarasova's fault.

Well I don't think you are seeing my idea in context. The issue is not whether Tarasova actively did anything as a coach to "harm" her American students. She is a good coach.

It's more about her ideals... Tarasova harps on artistic skating and Johnny's admiration for Tarasova and the "Russian style" that she represents has got him too focus on the artistic at the expense of the technical. Same with Sasha. She sought out Tarasova because the woman was known to train artistically impressive skaters, whereas Sasha should not have tried to be more artistic but should have rather focused on her jumps.

So, just to be clear, Tarasova "indirectly" hurt American skaters like Sasha and Johnny who got caught up in her ideals of beautiful skating, skating that in and of in itself isn't valued much in COP. Arakawa was smart in making the artistic only a small part of her overall strategy and deciding to use Callaghan to make her jumping technique stronger.

 

[ChrisH]

I see what the initial post is getting at, but that's not TT's fault. CoP is faulty and ruining figure skating because it doesn't appreciate the art aspect of it. Should people like TT who value artistry and beauty in skating just give up then because it's not going to be appreciated? Should all skaters adopt cold empty jump programs with no choreography and ignore music? Just because something is the case doesn't mean it's right. I respect skaters that aren't selling out, those who refuse to skate dead programs with nothing but jump after jump ......they may not win, but they're actually figure skating instead of skating on ice while jumping every so often. The artistic side of skating should be appreciated just as much as the athletic and the lack thereof should be penalized just as harshly as if the skater finished their program with-out landing a single jump imo.

:yes:

The CoP system and the way the judges follow it puts too much emphasis on the athletic side. I wouldn't agree with a 50%/50% split, though, more like a 60% athletic/40% artistic split.

Until the CoP system is better balanced, though, I rather my favorite skaters make their programs more CoP-ish. Which means focusing on their jump content. If they win, then at least we can see their artistry in the exhibitions.

 

[tiara]

What is it to do with Mao going to TT with Korean federation? I don't understand.

Sorry, I did not make myself understood clearly enough. I just made my story more interesting by adding some spice.

I hear that Tarasova approached Mao, not the other way around. Krenseby said that Mao's jumping ability have deteriorated because of Tarasova's influence, so, I add my imagination, the Korean conspiracy theory to Krenseby's opinion to make it more interesting. My imagination is that there is the Korean Federation behind the scheme and they actually made Tarasova approach Mao and persuade Mao into pursuing artistic greatness first and Mao's jumping ability deteriorates because of it. That is the outcome that the Korean Federation hoped for from the beginning. Do not you thnk it is good imagination?

 

[bekalc]

How could the Korean federation approach Tarasova, do they even know her.. Please that's total imagination.

As for Tarasova ruining people's jumps with artistry, I think that's ridiculous too. First of all, look at Mao's short program which Tarasova choregraphed. Many people have complained that her program has a step sequence that doesn't really go with the music.

Alexei Yagudin and Ilia Kulik, hardly lost their jumps when they went to Tarasova. IF Mao is having issues with her jumps, well she always had a flutz and she's had issues with the triple toe and triple salchow for years. That isn't Tarasova's fault. Mao also grew and had an injury this summer.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I really think Tarrosova develops style in a skater. Johnny's coach Priscilla gave him all those edges, flow, posture, and triple jumps as well as good spins. He had that terrific 3A, btw, since 2002. What TT did was put Johnny's personality into his skating. I think she did a good job, gave him Otonal.

Sasha is another story. TT gave Sasha a wonderful vehicle in Swan Lake to show the beautiful presentation that skater was capable of. From hearsay only, they disagreed on practice time so I do not think Sasha gained any value in her jumping skills. That, of course, was not the fault of TT.

Joe

 

[layman]

This is one the dumbest, most preposterous threads that I have read in a long time (and that's saying something). I think Esta (the blackmark of Tarasova) has struck again.